Arelith

I saw a gift of wealth update coming that will make it dependent on being in game instead of being a regular deposit..

I understand the reasoning but I just want to point out something. I took the gift on some of my characters because I don’t have a lot of play time for the foreseeable future and the gift was a nice way to have some funds for them to buy supplies when I can only play once or twice a week. I assumed the intent of the gift was to let casual players be able to “afford” to play and buy things when they didn’t have time to grind as a trade off for a 2 constitution gift or something else that would make the character stronger. I assumed most who took it are more on the casual side since it nerfs the characters power in exchange for a little spending money and (previously) the weekly deposits wouldn’t mean much to someone with a lot of time to craft and grind but would at least help a weekend player buy some stuff.

Again I understand the reasoning and am not trying to argue a developer decision but the gift is now much less useful to a more casual player and extremely rewarding to someone who can play full time. I don’t expect it to be undone but I felt I at least had to say something.

I had the same concern. I did the math and you would have to play 1.85 hours a day, every day for 9 days to make the same amount of gold that the old version of the gift gave. I feel like I play a lot and don’t consistently play that much.

Like the above poster I don’t mean to insult Sincra’s work. I just don’t think the gift is worth taking anymore unless you are able to play often and consistently and if you can do that you can make much more gold by just doing stuff while also having +2 to an ability score.

Maybe I am missing the point of the update, I assumed that the intention was to make the gift more consistent and useful.

I agree with the OP. Now there's zero reason to pick the gift.

I mean, at the high levels some of the purchases can easily be worth hundreds of thousands or even millions. Gift of wealth even if left alone for a whole IRL month could never reach those values. And the effect was that the character felt, well, wealthy.

400 gp every IG hour will make the character feel like some sort of a miser instead, plus rather than playing it would encourage idling. Definitely not a fun change.

I'm really sorry the change has spoiled some folks fun.

Ultimatly the reason for it was that we had some people who were making GoW characters, multiples of, logging in literally to get the gold, then muling gold between characters. We were getting this happening with alarming frequency so we had to do something about it, this seemed (and still seems) the best solution.

. I assumed the intent of the gift was to let casual players be able to “afford” to play and buy things when they didn’t have time to grind as a trade off for a 2 constitution gift or something else that would make the character stronger.

It was never really meant as that specific. It's just a gift meant to provide a pc with a bit of extra wealth, should they have some rp reason to be wealthy, or perhaps if their build or such isn't as up to scratch as others, meaning they don't have to go out hunting for it. Commoners, for example, likely find the gift an absolute godsend!

Now - I can hear the yells now 'But GrumpyCat! Why are you punishing US when surely it'd be better to punish the players doing this!'

Because it's a pain to find and catch, (often we find it more by luck than anything else) and takes a lot of digging to prove, and frankly the DM team have much better things to do. This way the gift is much more difficult to exploit, and can be used more like it's intended.

Again, I am sorry to those who're adversely effected by this, and certainly it may be tweaked a bit in future but please do not blame Sincra, or the team. Blame the exploitative idiots who made this change neccesary.

They're why we can't have nice things.

Finally the proof we needed!! Irongron is an AI that feeds off connections to the server… when people don’t log out… it grows stronger…

The GrumpyCat wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:40 pm I'm really sorry the change has spoiled some folks fun.

Ultimatly the reason for it was that we had some people who were making GoW characters, multiples of, logging in literally to get the gold, then muling gold between characters. We were getting this happening with alarming frequency so we had to do something about it, this seemed (and still seems) the best solution.

Why not restrict to one GoW character per account isntead? Also, muling is bannable offense, I believe.

You can also lock the old gift behind award.

Basically, while I can see that someone would like the new version, would be nice to keep the old one accessible to those who do not want to use it to cheat at an online game...

Void wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:09 pm I agree with the OP. Now there's zero reason to pick the gift.

I mean, at the high levels some of the purchases can easily be worth hundreds of thousands or even millions. Gift of wealth even if left alone for a whole IRL month could never reach those values. And the effect was that the character felt, well, wealthy.

400 gp every IG hour will make the character feel like some sort of a miser instead, plus rather than playing it would encourage idling. Definitely not a fun change.

400 gold ever 5 rl minutes doesnt encourage idling, it encourages god forbid RP while not killing things. And to prevent the idling afk issue, just strap it to the xp ticker that if you dont move about or participate you dont earn the coin tick.

It’s 400 every 20 mins.

But, yeah. That makes sense if people were doing bs with the gift. I wonder if we will see a drop in these crazy rich groups and people.

I’m psyched.

Void wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:03 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:40 pm I'm really sorry the change has spoiled some folks fun.

Ultimatly the reason for it was that we had some people who were making GoW characters, multiples of, logging in literally to get the gold, then muling gold between characters. We were getting this happening with alarming frequency so we had to do something about it, this seemed (and still seems) the best solution.

Why not restrict to one GoW character per account isntead? Also, muling is bannable offense, I believe.

You can also lock the old gift behind award.

Basically, while I can see that someone would like the new version, would be nice to keep the old one accessible to those who do not want to use it to cheat at an online game...

1 per account isn't a bad idea, but does stifle creativity (what if you want several at the same time? What if you don't want to delete those characters?) I'm not hugely against it but this way you can have multiples of them, if you wish.

Locking behind an award was something we discussed, but keep in mind that given you can't 'stack' awards, that blocks a lot of certain characters from having one. E.g. Nobles.

This option, whilst not as profitable, also does the job and it doesn't hinder concepts as much.

Guerra wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:05 pm I saw a gift of wealth update coming that will make it dependent on being in game instead of being a regular deposit..

I understand the reasoning but I just want to point out something. I took the gift on some of my characters because I don’t have a lot of play time for the foreseeable future and the gift was a nice way to have some funds for them to buy supplies when I can only play once or twice a week. I assumed the intent of the gift was to let casual players be able to “afford” to play and buy things when they didn’t have time to grind as a trade off for a 2 constitution gift or something else that would make the character stronger. I assumed most who took it are more on the casual side since it nerfs the characters power in exchange for a little spending money and (previously) the weekly deposits wouldn’t mean much to someone with a lot of time to craft and grind but would at least help a weekend player buy some stuff.

Again I understand the reasoning and am not trying to argue a developer decision but the gift is now much less useful to a more casual player and extremely rewarding to someone who can play full time. I don’t expect it to be undone but I felt I at least had to say something.

Same here. I took the GoW, because I mostly play during the weekends. It was nice logging in and seeing the extra 20k in your bank at the end of the week every Saturday or Sunday.

I think if the gold were increased to 800 OR the timer was reduced to like.. 10mins instead of 20 that'd be great!

Void wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:03 pm
Why not restrict to one GoW character per account isntead? Also, muling is bannable offense, I believe.

While yes, a bannable offense, these cases were much too frequent, and too much work for the team to identify and catch everyone. Catching people abusing it is not easy, and the knowledge that there are more than we can catch, and we have had, oh, so many cases on this lately. And with the fact how much other things the team takes care of on the backline, it's really a relief this was turned to something less-easily-abused.
Perhaps restricting it to one character per account would've been the choice. Can't speak on that, but wanted to untangle the "bannable offense" part a little more. It's not easy, and it's a lot of work.

The previous gift was 5k gold every month, which was 3 days until the quite recent time change...

Now its 400 per IG hour...
That's 1200 per RL hour.
You need to play about 4-5 hours over three days to be even with the previous gift's income, again, comparing to how it was for years before the time change (although I'm not even sure the time change took affect on it?). I cant speak for all players of course but it does seem like an upgrade.

It's a very nice upgrade if you are active. The complaints are by not so active players who will make much less now and may have relied on the extra income which makes sense to me. It seems like the more you play the more you get but also the less you need it.. A vicious circle and the rich get richer...

I am thinking this is one more reason for players to be semi-AFK all the time instead of logging, but I guess adventure XP was already encouraging that kind of thing.

This is so unfortunate. On one hand, I can absolutely see why this change was necessary. If muling is as much a concern as it is, imagine how much second-hand muling (sending gold to your friends in the same faction) is going on. We *know* that giving and trading stuff between friends in cliques has always been an issue, and will continue to always be an issue.

But on the other, this change punishes all those who were using the gift of wealth responsibly. That's unfortunate, but I can see why it's necessary.

It's another case of "this is why we can't have nice things"

Time for some disclosure on my reasoning to the numbers and why this change is the way it is.

Prior to this change:
It was actually a mechanical loophole, in that as I dug, it revealed a stark difference in intent and implementation.
Firstly, the 20k segment was being done in two parts so it was already double tapping a command to the database for no reason.

Second, it was comparing real time against in game time. Technically this meant if you logged in at any point in a 30 day span you got the next 30 divided by rl days to ig months for free.

1 RL Month (30 RL days) = 3.21 Game Months = 90 Game Days

In exact terms you got 3 payouts for 1 login.
This is part of what made the issue of multiple characters with the gift an issue but was not and is not the root.

Onto the change:
Why an IG hour?
20 minutes is 4 ticks, is 1 in game hour.
This happens 3 times an hour.
You can idle around for an hour a day, sit in a tavern, relax, maybe do a writ, and still gain 1200 gold from your MYSTERIOUSLY WEALTHY BENEFACTOR.
To me it was as close to per 5 minutes I felt comfortable placing the job of a database trawl onto the server processing power. Remember, this is a server. If it lags for one it lags for all.

Why 400 per IG hour?
You come out on top if you spend a relatively short period playing. I didn't want a pressure to run around and be active.
Let us look at the math:
20 minutes is 400 gold.
1 hour is 1200.
10 hours is 12000.
20 hours is 24000.
17 hours is 20400.
Over a period of 9 to 10ish days this rewards being simply available to RP but does not allow growth out of nothing.

Why not make it require X time to get the weeks payout?
Why not limit it to 1 per cd key?
That's what this is.
It encourages active playing.
Stops multiple characters benefiting in the background.

To the future:
I want to revisit this gift eventually and give it more love, speaking to Redropes he originally raised the idea of swapping it over to make housing discounted.
I like this idea but feel it should not replace the wealth aspect.
For now this is a fix, in future it may expand, but that is for the team to decide. I came to this to stop an exploit with as little harm to normal players as I could manage.

On that account, I believe I succeeded, and I am sorry for those that will feel this due to limited playtime below 17 hours over 10 days.

Sincra wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:05 amThat's what this is.
It encourages active playing.

IMO, it does not encourage active playing, it encourages being online, which is not the same thing.
It is possible to just idle in a corner.

Being active in game gets rewarded. Being inactive in game potentially just gets you kicked, killed or punished depending on the severity of the intention to exploit the system.

And in today's episode of Why We Cant Have Nice Things....

I was not aware mulling gold was such a severe problem and I now think maybe something should be done about faction accounts.

Not exactly on topic but bare with me..

An innocent good roleplayer plays in a faction, enjoys playing in that faction, rolls the character and decides on a future character to join the same faction (something that happens a lot, right? some factions like harpers, zhents, a city guard, arent meant to ever die too)... In probably the majority of the cases, that player unintentionally mules gold from their previous character to their current one. Now imagine how hard it is to prove it if someone does it intentionally. If gift of wealth was a problem, how is faction bank accounts not a problem I wonder.

I believe that a good rule of the thumb is to avoid having multiple active characters in the same faction.

IMO gift of wealth is bad design and should have been removed entirely. Nobility perks appear like something that might have been intended as a more viable and sustainable replacement for it.

I was unaware muling of God was such an issue. However if this fix frees up the staff to focus on better things I'm all for it.

I might suggest for players who don't have alot of playtime (like myself) to invest skill points in leadership and appraisal. The pay out from this is worth far more then GoW.

Now if you add all three together . . . ❤

-XXX- wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:12 pm I believe that a good rule of the thumb is to avoid having multiple active characters in the same faction.

This is not only a rule of thumb, but an actual rule. Don't have multiple characters in the same faction.

I honestly hadn't considered muling either but it will also stop someone from making a new character, sitting it on the shelf to grow its account while wrapping up the old character over two weeks to a month, then pulling out a lvl 2 with a massive bank account to fully gear themselves.

I know people hate low lvls but I think the interactions for gear, gold, supplies and leveling is some of the best time to make lasting IG connections. It isn't a popular opinion by far but it, I feel, encourages interacting with people you normally wouldn't and that isn't always a bad thing.

DM Monkey wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:02 am Being active in game gets rewarded. Being inactive in game potentially just gets you kicked, killed or punished depending on the severity of the intention to exploit the system.

This- for those that idle.

Also - look I'm all for making sure that folks with less time to play arn't left out in the cold - but ultimatly its not entirely fair to award people /for/ playing more, either. Is it?

There's lots of casual players who manage just fine without this gift, I'm sure. You will too. Again - I am sorry you've lost out, it's a shame, but that's the way it's gone. Don't blame us, blame the exploiters who made us have to make this change.

Void wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:16 am

Sincra wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:05 amThat's what this is.
It encourages active playing.

IMO, it does not encourage active playing, it encourages being online, which is not the same thing.
It is possible to just idle in a corner.

I am curious how you believe this should have been approached?

I ask because this same argument was brought out against adventure xp and the previous iteration of tavern bonuses to adventure xp gain.
Both of which did see afking individuals, that then quickly ceased due to impracticality and obviousness.

I've had a GoW character from waaaay back in the day, when it was, I believe, 1000 (was it 3K?) gold every IG month (3 RL days.) I took the gift because I knew I wouldn't be able to play often enough to really build up a reserve on top of my adventuring expenses at the time, and it worked pretty well.

Admittedly, at one point, I couldn't play for a few months, and came back to a significantly larger pile of gold than I left with. That was too much for nothing, I agree.

At some point, it was changed so that if my character wasn't active, he didn't get the gold. NGL, was a tiny bit disappointed, but it made sense. I believe around this iteration if I didn't log in once every three days, I got nothing.

My understanding of the original gift of wealth (I have to get ready for work shortly or I'd go digging) was that it was in fact meant for characters who were meant to have some source of IC income not reliant on killing things (a gem mine or some such, or in my character's case a lockdown on a specific kind of rum and its trade route through dangerous waters). And also OOC for people who didn't have constant playtime.

In my perfect world, if I were able to play semi-regularly, there would be a hybridization of both. Rather than making the gift of wealth tick every RP tick, perhaps if you acquire, say, two hours worth of playtime every five days you can get 10,000 gold. It's enough to be helpful for players with average playtimes, and also still a significant improvement for those with limited playtimes.

Not that I have anything against people with unlimited playtimes (I used to be one of them), but it also applies a practical IC limit and stops someone who plays 40 hours a week from reaching an absurd amount of gold (48K). Think it would probably also ease up on the heartbeat requirements of the system, from a design perspective.