Arelith

Would be great if information on spells being affected by summoning books was provided in the game.

The default impression I had is that summoning replace number spells creatures with their own version. This, however, isn't true, so my character ended up wasting money.

I don't understand what your default impression was, but this is one of the mechanics that can be quite fun to figure out by trial and error and/or can create actually interesting RP by asking characters who understand it in character.

If your complaint is about accidentally ending up with excess stream books, then don't worry, because:
a) they are fairly desirable IG merchandise that's always easy to flip
b) books can be stored in craftable fixture containers (Bookcases) and/or inventory containers (Book Bags), so they don't really need to take up any of your limited inventory/quarter chest/citizenship storage space.

-XXX- wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:06 pm a) they are fairly desirable IG merchandise that's always easy to flip

You can't flip what you no longer have and they're not easy to flip either - they can stay unsold for IRL weeks.

That can apply to any merchandise, especially when priced incorrectly.

-XXX- wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:38 pm That can apply to

*sighs*
Not in the mood for this sort of discussion, and that's not what this post was about.

So, there have been a few posts like this and I just want to echo what others have said and some of the realities of the server.

1.) This server runs on a volunteer staff. Frankly, I think they do an amazing job of writing flavor text. Some of the NPC's in the game are awesome and the lore on many of the loot and crafted weapon descriptions is awesome. However, "this isn't clear" isn't a good reason to do the work of adjusting all the flavor texts of something.

2.) If the book isn't clear, try to keep it in character. In fact, there are a few of the more nefarious books that are purposely unclear. Ask someone. Take it to the Arcane tower. Take it to your preferred cleric. Lean into that in-game experience. (Much as -XXX- said)

3.) The wiki knowledge on the server is fair game for your character. The server does a really good job of keeping mechanics visible. Read it. You can treat it as IC knowledge if you want. Or maybe, you can set your own lore benchmarks.

Moral of the story: If you want immersion, ask someone. If you want knowledge, go to the wiki. Either way, there is a solution that does not require the dev team

Archnon wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:53 pm Moral of the story: If you want immersion, ask someone. If you want knowledge, go to the wiki. Either way, there is a solution that does not require the dev team

I'm fairly sure the dev team can speak for themselves, no? I have no authority to make them do anything, and neither do you. Likewise neither I nor you have authority to decide what is worthy for the devs to review.

I'm also fairly sure I've not asked for any sort of assistance with gameplay or in-game items. If I looked for help or advice, the post would've been in another section.

The post in feedback is an opinion that can be discarded if the devs deem it is not worth their time. Or maybe someone decides "wait , I TOTALLY wanted to update this thing". Trying to police the post while not being part of the dev team kidna defeats the purpose of the feedback section, don't you think?

I thought they did .

They are fairly clear on what they allow the user to access, or do you mean you would like detailed spell lists in the text of each book?

chris a gogo wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:47 pm I thought they did .

They are fairly clear on what they allow the user to access, or do you mean you would like detailed spell lists in the text of each book?

Currently there's no way of knowing in the game whether the spells you have are going to be affected by the stream provided by a book.

Yeah, flame weapon apparently can do some extra stuff with streams activated? I have no idea how it works, only archers ask me about it. I have no idea if any other spells are influenced by streams being active.

I haven't played someone who uses one in a while, but I had the impression that the spell itself had the description/information of if a stream book effected it.

Definately Not A Mimic wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:04 am I haven't played someone who uses one in a while, but I had the impression that the spell itself had the description/information of if a stream book effected it.

I checked it to be sure.

Nope. They don't have description/information.

I like that summoning, along with many other things, are a bit vague.

You cast a spell that summons a creature. Your character doesnt necessarily know for a fact what's about to happen. stream books seem like a good representation of that and you can bet it's vague intentionally. Always has been across most or all books except... "Infernal contract". I too lost 10k gold for buying a wrong stream book once.... happens..

"When Bad Things Happen To Good Adventurers" applies here.
Sorry about your loss, it does suck to learn something doesn't work the way you thought it did - especially if you spent resources on it.

That being said, your character having learned a stream isn't entirely a bad thing. If it's an elemental stream, you can use it to summon said elemental type as a creature on like the highest 4(?) Summon Creature spells.

If it's an extraplanar stream, it works with the Planar Binding and the Gate spells. I believe streams extend to scrolls and wands too.

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:23 am "When Bad Things Happen To Good Adventurers" applies here.

Well, sure, but if it is meant to be foig the question is why it is on the wiki...

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:12 am I too lost 10k gold for buying a wrong stream book once.... happens..

My poor low level wizard bought 3 wrong stream books by now. Granted the total was about 12k. ("Money comes and money goes away immediately, like water")

One stream requires epic feat, another one starts at spell tier the mage cannot yet cast, and last one is able to produce useless summon only.

Now it will be more useful later on, but still, some ingame explanation would be great, especially given that the mage has both lore and spellcraft and would know at least something about it.

P.S. At this point the character seem to have a real knack for wasting money, to be honest.

The information is there, it just takes the form of lore references instead of being entirely explicit.
I've not found individual stream books being explicitly tied to their respectable streams on the wiki either.

Besides, any self-respecting mage gotta catch 'em all!

-XXX- wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:06 pm I don't understand what your default impression was, but this is one of the mechanics that can be quite fun to figure out by trial and error and/or can create actually interesting RP by asking characters who understand it in character.

This is really the crux of the matter imo as far as evaluating the current implementation. For clarity and ease towards fresh players a more mechanically transparent description would be superior. For verisimilitude and the potential to catalyze rp I think the current degree of opaqueness is better.

-XXX- wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:06 am The information is there, it just takes the form of lore references instead of being entirely explicit.

It's not there.

-XXX- wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:06 am I've not found individual stream books being explicitly tied to their respectable streams on the wiki either.

FOIG?

They're explicitly tied. A book is bound to a specific stream TYPE and can only unlock variation for that TYPE.
In different situation a different stream TYPE is used.

For example, for number spells, elemental stream TYPE kick in at spell level 7, but before that another stream TYPE is being used, and if you buy a book at level 3, you wasted your money.


The main source of this information is the wiki and not the world. And wiki is OOC knowledge. Of course, maybe someone wrote a book about that, and it is safely locked in some guild library where it will never see the light of day, but if you compare the situation with, say, enchanting/dweomercrafting, you'll see a lot of difference.

Depending on your build you may easily be unable to "Catch them all", as some of the streams, even if you learn them, can end up being forever unusable for you.

perseid wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:13 am

-XXX- wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:06 pm I don't understand what your default impression was, but this is one of the mechanics that can be quite fun to figure out by trial and error and/or can create actually interesting RP by asking characters who understand it in character.

This is really the crux of the matter imo as far as evaluating the current implementation. For clarity and ease towards fresh players a more mechanically transparent description would be superior. For verisimilitude and the potential to catalyze rp I think the current degree of opaqueness is better.

True, but the available options are:

1) Ask newer players that they either a) interact with other characters b) experiment c) research some lore - or any combination of those.

2) Have items with titles/descriptions like "Slaad outsider stream book" (quick reminder: this IS an RP server)

3) Giving stream books item level restriction 9. Then again, all stream books can be used to summon a weak pet, so they aren't entirely useless for low level characters either.


Fun fact: these books are not generaly sold through NPC vendors - they are and have been designed primarily as loot drops. You are supposed to find them, use their first activated ability to figure out what kind of stream they are used for and then use the other one if you think that knowing said stream makes sense for your character.

-XXX- wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:51 am use their first activated ability to figure out

Look, are you doing this on purpose?

It is EASY to figure out what kind of creature the book is about. That's not a problem. That's not what it is about. You don't even need to summon you can just read the description.

There's no indication, anywhere, whether learning the stream will affect any spells that you use or even have. The books, all of them, imply that if you study them, you'll be able to summon the critters and that is a lie.

"The book will summon a weak creature". Sure.
You use the book, it summons a critter. That means you'd be able to summon this one if you attune to the stream, right? Or use it right away?

NOPE.

-XXX- wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:51 am

perseid wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:13 am

-XXX- wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:06 pm I don't understand what your default impression was, but this is one of the mechanics that can be quite fun to figure out by trial and error and/or can create actually interesting RP by asking characters who understand it in character.

This is really the crux of the matter imo as far as evaluating the current implementation. For clarity and ease towards fresh players a more mechanically transparent description would be superior. For verisimilitude and the potential to catalyze rp I think the current degree of opaqueness is better.

True, but the available options are:

1) Ask newer players that they either a) interact with other characters b) experiment c) research some lore - or any combination of those.

2) Have items with titles/descriptions like "Slaad outsider stream book" (quick reminder: this IS an RP server)

3) Giving stream books item level restriction 9. Then again, all stream books can be used to summon a weak pet, so they aren't entirely useless for low level characters either.


Fun fact: these books are not generaly sold through NPC vendors - they are and have been designed primarily as loot drops. You are supposed to find them, use their first activated ability to figure out what kind of stream they are used for and then use the other one if you think that knowing said stream makes sense for your character.

Agreed. I just meant that I think it's a matter of goals more than if one or the other is better/worse at this point. Personally I understand Void's criticism and think it has merit but I don't know if I'd say I find it a severe enough problem to warrant the blow to immersion even if it's a bit unintuitive if you're coming in knowing nothing.

This information already available OOC, prior to using any stream book, via the wiki.

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Summoning_Changes

The "Summoning Streams" section lists specifically which spells are affected by which streams.

Void wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:02 pm

Archnon wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:53 pm Moral of the story: If you want immersion, ask someone. If you want knowledge, go to the wiki. Either way, there is a solution that does not require the dev team

I'm fairly sure the dev team can speak for themselves, no? I have no authority to make them do anything, and neither do you. Likewise neither I nor you have authority to decide what is worthy for the devs to review.

I'm also fairly sure I've not asked for any sort of assistance with gameplay or in-game items. If I looked for help or advice, the post would've been in another section.

The post in feedback is an opinion that can be discarded if the devs deem it is not worth their time. Or maybe someone decides "wait , I TOTALLY wanted to update this thing". Trying to police the post while not being part of the dev team kidna defeats the purpose of the feedback section, don't you think?

This is actually not entirely true. Devs that specifically want feedback from players also create threads here and wanting dev opinion to merely approve or discard would make this a suggestion box, which is currently closed.

The feedback section very much is "i have an idea, what opinions do the community have?"

I do understand not liking the feelimg ideas of being policed, but the "thought police" do hsve tabs on why certain things were done certain ways and using that might help you refine the idea.

You are also free to ignore their feedback and free to mske a suggestion when the suggestion box re-opens.

Void wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:34 amThe main source of this information is the wiki and not the world. And wiki is OOC knowledge.

you seem to be looking for reasons not to have known this when you've said it yourself this information is readily available

Archnon wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:53 pm1.) This server runs on a volunteer staff

BINGO