Arelith

Please post bugs in the bugs megathread, but discuss any other feedback about the shifter rework here.

Glad to see Shifter get some love, and I like the 'jack of all trades, master of none' approach taken with it. Being able to instantly transform to fill a niche in the party is exactly what one would envision from a mercurial shapeshifter with dozens of forms.

Separating it from Druid was also a great change, especially in the roleplay area.

Now as for more critical feedback.

I perfectly understand were you're coming from in it being a nightmare to balance gear around 4 distinct miniature classes (Not even including the upcoming Epic Forms) But I hope you reconsider at least partially, even just opening a few gear slots to the shifter.

Mechanically I think gear progression is a big part of this server, be it crafting or looting, and having shifter just not have access to that part of the server is a shame.

Then in terms of building and feats, It'd be cool if the magical forms could get some sort of scaling with foci/metamagic feats. (Like old Rakshasa being able to metamagic its Ice Storms with the relevant feats before it got removed in Enhanced Edition, for an example)

I don't know, my biggest personal worry with this update is that you can have 5 people all level Shifters to 30 and still really not see much difference between them mechanically. Itemization and Feats are a big part of what make a class into something unique for you as the player.


Uh anyway, I am really happy Shifter is getting a rework. I do appreciate the absolute ton of work you're having to put in dealing with one of the more wacky and mechanically 'out there' classes.

Scraps wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:58 pm I perfectly understand were you're coming from in it being a nightmare to balance gear around 4 distinct miniature classes (Not even including the upcoming Epic Forms) But I hope you reconsider at least partially, even just opening a few gear slots to the shifter.

Mechanically I think gear progression is a big part of this server, be it crafting or looting, and having shifter just not have access to that part of the server is a shame.

What slots would you suggest be allowed?
I ask because nearly every slot has an item that would tip the scales just that bit further, and if the class is based on -not- merging, it'd need any stat that a slot can impact reduced equal to best in slot value, thus reaching square 1 again.

Ive used mainly risen lord and kobold for PVE as one of the active shifters at level 30. The other shapes are not particularly viable and anyone who has played the class can testify that shifter has pretty significant issues, particularly in buffing itself given its a mundane class and the way items merge, as well as no ability to use items in shape.

As risen lord strength is base 21 its AB is very low as a mundane class, currently sits at 44 as a theoretical maximum on my character assuming you can beg someone to buff you. Self buffed it is around 40 ish. This will be improved by 4-5 ab for future shifters by the change to a full melee class which is much welcomed (although as a grandfathered char i understand i wont get that benefit). Risen lord just lost 1 ab from the nerf to 2 hand ab and I also understand is likely to lose a crit multiplier when part 2 of the balance changes hit and nerf scythe.

Risen lord is an undead shape so has no ability to heal itself. You cant use heal kits when shifted and all heal potions dont work (they harm undead). You are therefore already somewhat of a sitting duck to IGMS and any other form of spell damage, not to mention any class with turn undead to which you have zero counterplay. Risen lord is very much a PVE build, there is no way to successfully pvp because you simply cant compete pvp without heal potions.

With all that in mind, I query the need to remove risen lord crit immunity and significantly reduce its DI. With somewhat below average AB, no ability to self heal, reduced weapon crit multiplier, no crit immunity and reduced damage resistance I fear there will be little case to build into the form. Undead shape currently has no wisdom requirement and can be taken on level 10 shifter. With the proposed change to make undead shape require 23 wisdom i cant see anyone wanting to build a risen lord even for PVE as it has a variable dexterity in shape and no synergy with wisdom so you're going to end up with a very sad shape with bad AC, no crit immunity and DI that doesnt do much other than prolong inevitable death.

As to the new forms, without having much time to process and consider how they would play out, my main immediate feedback would be to consider allowing the weapons to merge. Its not clear what type of weapons the new forms use - are they weapon models, unarmed strike or natural weapons? If the intention is to encourage shifters to use all categories of the forms then the weapons should be consistent for each form, so that you can select a single weapon focus feat which applies across all forms (e.g. 1 hand edge, etc). Of course if they are natural weapons only then this won't be applicable as no feats will improve the weapons. It would be good though if they were actual weapons and if merging is allowed, that way shifters can add some damage and other things to the shapes to provide some small degree of customisation in the building part of the game.

Appreciate all the hard work you guys do - will be interested to see how the new class plays out.

Sincra wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:03 am

Scraps wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:58 pm I perfectly understand were you're coming from in it being a nightmare to balance gear around 4 distinct miniature classes (Not even including the upcoming Epic Forms) But I hope you reconsider at least partially, even just opening a few gear slots to the shifter.

Mechanically I think gear progression is a big part of this server, be it crafting or looting, and having shifter just not have access to that part of the server is a shame.

What slots would you suggest be allowed?
I ask because nearly every slot has an item that would tip the scales just that bit further, and if the class is based on -not- merging, it'd need any stat that a slot can impact reduced equal to best in slot value, thus reaching square 1 again.

I mean yeah, you could say that of literally every class. You could balance fighter around reaching 30 and having the stats, damage, and saves of fully 5% and runed gear and, a Masterly Damask 5% with Keen, and the works.

But I likewise think that wouldn't be super satisfying to the player of the fighter, even if it might be balanced. Chasing gear is a big part of the endgame. Something to engage mechanically with the server in addition to the roleplay side.
As for which slots, the more the merrier, but I understand that it would be an absolute headache especially some esoteric interactions that could potentially come into play with the nature of how Neverwinter Nights likes to handle tossing stats onto one big creature hide for shapeshifts.

Scraps wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:00 am

Sincra wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:03 am

Scraps wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:58 pm I perfectly understand were you're coming from in it being a nightmare to balance gear around 4 distinct miniature classes (Not even including the upcoming Epic Forms) But I hope you reconsider at least partially, even just opening a few gear slots to the shifter.

Mechanically I think gear progression is a big part of this server, be it crafting or looting, and having shifter just not have access to that part of the server is a shame.

What slots would you suggest be allowed?
I ask because nearly every slot has an item that would tip the scales just that bit further, and if the class is based on -not- merging, it'd need any stat that a slot can impact reduced equal to best in slot value, thus reaching square 1 again.

I mean yeah, you could say that of literally every class. You could balance fighter around reaching 30 and having the stats, damage, and saves of fully 5% and runed gear and, a Masterly Damask 5% with Keen, and the works.

But I likewise think that wouldn't be super satisfying to the player of the fighter, even if it might be balanced. Chasing gear is a big part of the endgame. Something to engage mechanically with the server in addition to the roleplay side.
As for which slots, the more the merrier, but I understand that it would be an absolute headache especially some esoteric interactions that could potentially come into play with the nature of how Neverwinter Nights likes to handle tossing stats onto one big creature hide for shapeshifts.

I think you're missing my point, level 30's have to work towards making that maximum end point because their stats are technically that much lower than the max.
If shifter was now allowing a slot or item merger then it would need adjusting based on attainable maximums for that slot.

All in all awesome and incredible! I’m thrilled

I think the point of everything being the same and a lack of customization has some merit. Fixing this falls under “nice to have” in my book but others may obviously disagree.

Potential ways to go about this:
A few bonus feats sprinkled in across level progression that lets the shifter choose purely visual variety

Using -stream or -rest to choose different variations of a model where applicable (lizards come in various shapes/colors and so on)

Adding customizable damage types a la warlocks to be used with various shapes

Being able to choose weapon types where applicable (either purely visual or to be combined with weapon feats)

But all in all I’m super hyped and also curious what the grandfathered shifters can look forward to

Sincra wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:52 am

Scraps wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:00 am

Sincra wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:03 am

What slots would you suggest be allowed?
I ask because nearly every slot has an item that would tip the scales just that bit further, and if the class is based on -not- merging, it'd need any stat that a slot can impact reduced equal to best in slot value, thus reaching square 1 again.

I mean yeah, you could say that of literally every class. You could balance fighter around reaching 30 and having the stats, damage, and saves of fully 5% and runed gear and, a Masterly Damask 5% with Keen, and the works.

But I likewise think that wouldn't be super satisfying to the player of the fighter, even if it might be balanced. Chasing gear is a big part of the endgame. Something to engage mechanically with the server in addition to the roleplay side.
As for which slots, the more the merrier, but I understand that it would be an absolute headache especially some esoteric interactions that could potentially come into play with the nature of how Neverwinter Nights likes to handle tossing stats onto one big creature hide for shapeshifts.

I think you're missing my point, level 30's have to work towards making that maximum end point because their stats are technically that much lower than the max.
If shifter was now allowing a slot or item merger then it would need adjusting based on attainable maximums for that slot.

No, classes getting more powerful when having access to gear that increases stats is a very simple concept, I don't believe I've said anything that would suggest that isn't the case or I didn't understand it.

When I said a fighter hitting 30 and instantly having access to his his fully geared stats, skills, crit range, and ect. with no gear, I was trying to suggest that would be balanced, but also really really boring for a player.

Yes, not having any gear or items should have you overall weaker than someone who has gear and items. It's a progression system separate (partially, I mean some gear has level requirements) from your level. And its a big part of Areliths 'end game' dungeons, be it runes or high level crafting materials.

Honestly having a class that's as powerful as it will ever get the moment it hits 30 with literally zero other investment is also problematic in a lot of ways. It means you either have something that's either AS strong as a max level classes who've invested loads of time in gearing their characters. (Not a great feeling for those people) -Or a class that's just weaker than all the classes that CAN invest in gearing themselves with no recourse other than just playing a different class. (Not a great feeling for the shifter.)

^^ It’s a fair point but as a Jack of all trades a shifter should be a few pegs below a fully geared lvl 30 who focuses on a specific role.

But there is a real issue in making shifters competetive in pvp without being too strong (or simply always weaker)

Not being able to use wands or scrolls while shifted seems like a big deal for instance

Yeah I should have been more clear I was talking about the class as a whole being more or less powerful. Each form should be weaker than the archetype it emulates, because you can shift into another at a whim as required. How MUCH weaker is up for discussion, and will be the tricky thing to balance.

I've gone out of my way to not really discuss the classes mechanical balance because it just feels pretty pointless right now. There's a lot related to the class that's unknown. So I've tried to focus on things I like or am worried about relating to the core design of the class.

Heres a bit of feedback from my time playing around on the PGCC. Overall I'm happy with how the new stuff has turned out.

• The Alter 1 Bullete is WAY TO BIG. It barely can make it around fixtures and can't even fit through the stardard doorways. Which is a huge annoyance and will get you killed if you have to constantly reshift upon encountering a doorway.
• I think the Caster Alters could each do with having four spells. 2 Damage spells so they have a little variety in combat, 1 Buff or Heal spell and one Misc Spell to give them some other interaction (The Mephit's Colour Spray and the Arcane Aspect's Breach are good examples of a Misc Spell).
• It would be nice if your held weapon would be visually used by the relevant forms (Kenku, Lizardmen, Dragonkin, etc). It wouldn't add anything mechanical so you'd do the same damage and have the same defence no matter what you held (or didn't hold). Just a small way of personalising the forms and making it so they aren't all just PUNCHING everything.
• Theres a few too many lizardman forms now, theres 3 now. You've got the default Lizard Whipmaster and now you've got the Lizardman Reaver and Assabi Chief. Maybe one could be changed to a Yuan-ti or something a little more different.
• (Not sure if this was intential, but...) The early Alter Forms suffer from similar problems that the default Forms have, they are too weak once you reach a certain level. Once your doing relatively high content you'll rarely use the Bullywug Form for example since you'll get destroyed extremely quickly. So it would be nice if older forms got a meaningful stat buff once you reach a certain level. Not enough that they'd surpass your later Forms, but enough so your choice isn't just restricted to playing the Aspects at later levels.

Contiuing the spitballing here

Ways to avoid every shifter is the same:
Feats that enhance one group of forms slightly but also gives penalties to another group. I.e. Making the sneaky shapes more potent (more sneak attack, more acid, inherent poison or what have you) but decreasing the power of the tanks (debuffs, vulnurabilities or barring acces to the lvl 4 shape or some such).

was a good idea, here's to hoping its tried again eventually

bump o/

It's still indefinitely shelved.

I was the only dev working on it and I have since left the team so it’ll only happen if someone else takes it up and they’ll likely make some changes and probably improvements if/when they do. On the bright side there are some fantastic and wildly talented people on the team who I’m sure would do a great job with it if they want to.

*le sad*
But thanks for chiming in and for all your work on features, balance etc. garr. Really left a mark on the server.

The class was obviously a very ambitious and complicated one. Sad as it is to see the shifter falling apart, maybe it would be simpler and more realistic to just fix polymorph spells in general.

Turning into a zombie or umber hulk or spider is generally a poor choice in combat, and it would be so wonderful to see that reality change.

On one hand I'd like it if polymorph spells were more useful for me to use, on the other I wouldn't want to see a sizable chunk of PCs running around in the world as various monstrosities whenever they leave town because it's slightly more optimal.

People used to do that in chromatic dragon form, and get really offended when you reacted to them like a monster.

“Hey it’s just for true seeing and fire immunity, don’t kill my hype”