Arelith

Hey,

Had an issue last night when the Premonition (aka Guldorand Flagship) went up against the Dreadnought (aka - The Butcher).

We got attacked by the Dreadnought that creepy horn thing they do was the first indication of the attack. However at no point could me or my crew catch sight of them with our spyglass, we could not target them with our weapons.

As the Dreadnoughts chainshots drove us further and further into a frenzy of rp panic. They apparently were sending shouts across to us too but we could not hear them.

Kudos too the crew of the Dreadnought for breaking off after we realised this must be a bug via private messages to one another.

Apothys wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:26 pm Hey,

Had an issue last night when the Premonition (aka Guldorand Flagship) went up against the Dreadnought (aka - The Butcher).

We got attacked by the Dreadnought that creepy horn thing they do was the first indication of the attack. However at no point could me or my crew catch sight of them with our spyglass, we could not target them with our weapons.

As the Dreadnoughts chainshots drove us further and further into a frenzy of rp panic. They apparently were sending shouts across to us too but we could not hear them.

Kudos too the crew of the Dreadnought for breaking off after we realised this must be a bug via private messages to one another.

So its two bugs?

1) You couldn't spot the Dreadnought?
2) You couldn't shout to eachother?

So I'd ask you to confirm if you were on the same quadrant, but I assume you were grappled so you had to be. But just double checking here.

As for not spotting it, yeah have you been able to spot any other Player ships at all since the update?

I was on the Butcher at the time. Yes, we were shouting plenty but players on the Premonition couldn't hear it, nor could they fire back. We also couldn't hear their shouts.

Saslae Xun'viir's player suggested this was because our ship's collective sail skill was so much higher than the Premonition's at the time (iirc we had 80ish and they had 30ish) that they had no chance of spotting us even if we were firing at them. I'm not 100% sure that's true myself? Sounds more like it was a glitch, as I thought that as soon as ship 1 fires at ship 2, ship 2 should be automatically able to detect ship 1 and be able to return fire.

We never grappled them though, so maybe we weren't in the same quadrant? If that's the case though, I wonder how we could fire at them.

To respond to AR: that's the only player ship we've run into since the update, so I can't speak on this problem repeating. Our NPC ship combats have been fine as usual, and the new NPC ships + locations are great!

Kudos too the crew of the Dreadnought for breaking off after we realised this must be a bug via private messages to one another.

This is a really nice thing to read at christmas.

Aradin wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:19 pm I was on the Butcher at the time. Yes, we were shouting plenty but players on the Premonition couldn't hear it, nor could they fire back. We also couldn't hear their shouts.

Saslae Xun'viir's player suggested this was because our ship's collective sail skill was so much higher than the Premonition's at the time (iirc we had 80ish and they had 30ish) that they had no chance of spotting us even if we were firing at them. I'm not 100% sure that's true myself? Sounds more like it was a glitch, as I thought that as soon as ship 1 fires at ship 2, ship 2 should be automatically able to detect ship 1 and be able to return fire.

We never grappled them though, so maybe we weren't in the same quadrant? If that's the case though, I wonder how we could fire at them.

To respond to AR: that's the only player ship we've run into since the update, so I can't speak on this problem repeating. Our NPC ship combats have been fine as usual, and the new NPC ships + locations are great!

I think firing just gives massive penalty/bonus with sail vs sail for spotting. I feel like spotting should be flat dcs that actually uses the spot skill and the dc is based off ship size and sailing tier.

So rather than just sail vs sail, it could be dc of ship + tier bonus added to dc (kind of like how different lvls of lore unlock different circles of scrolls. So even if avg sail is still used to spot, vs say the highest spotter in the group, it could be a dc set ship class + tier of crew sailing - actions taken like firing.

Aradin wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:19 pm I was on the Butcher at the time. Yes, we were shouting plenty but players on the Premonition couldn't hear it, nor could they fire back. We also couldn't hear their shouts.

Saslae Xun'viir's player suggested this was because our ship's collective sail skill was so much higher than the Premonition's at the time (iirc we had 80ish and they had 30ish) that they had no chance of spotting us even if we were firing at them. I'm not 100% sure that's true myself? Sounds more like it was a glitch, as I thought that as soon as ship 1 fires at ship 2, ship 2 should be automatically able to detect ship 1 and be able to return fire.

We never grappled them though, so maybe we weren't in the same quadrant? If that's the case though, I wonder how we could fire at them.

To respond to AR: that's the only player ship we've run into since the update, so I can't speak on this problem repeating. Our NPC ship combats have been fine as usual, and the new NPC ships + locations are great!

Yeah I think this is just a case of your Sail Rank being so much higher they never spot you. You only get automatically detected when firing during daytime and you are not by a landmark and its clear weather.

As for grappling, that only works on the same quadrant while you can still fire ship weapons at them when they are 1 quadrant away as usual. Why we have the Chain Shots now so you can slow them. So it seems no one here was sure you were on the same quadrant, that's only when shouting works. For future reference you can always use the Spyglass to detect if a ship is on your quadrant.

Chain shots irl dont travel as far as straight cannon Pufferfish. Like it's unless you are in supernaturally thick fog, its nrxt to impossible to not see a ship chain shotting you. Like i can't find my keys in the morning but id see sn invisible ship still shooting freaking chains at me (think fog is more effective than an invisible ship cause you wouldn't be able observe the entire trajectory of the shot.)

Should ships be able to retain stealth even after opening fire?

I mean, mechanically I get that the sail skill difference between both crews can result in one of the ships becoming unspottable for the other crew, but this can lead to a fairly one-sided encounter.

Logically, bombards would leave a large trails of smoke after firing. I don't see how a ship could remain hidden after firing.

Or is there some balance related intent behind ships being able to fire while staying hidden?




(Imaskari cloaking device OP )

-XXX- wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:29 pm Should ships be able to retain stealth even after opening fire?

I mean, mechanically I get that the sail skill difference between both crews can result in one of the ships becoming unspottable for the other crew, but this can lead to a fairly one-sided encounter.

Logically, bombards would leave a large trails of smoke after firing. I don't see how a ship could remain hidden after firing.

Or is there some balance related intent behind ships being able to fire while staying hidden?




(Imaskari cloaking device OP )

Firing will increase your exposure still and the heavier the weapon the more exposed you get, so still when firing it does decrease your hide. In this case I believe they were just out ranked in Sail why this happens. Realistic? Maybe not, but mechanically, it works as intended. There's a lot of factors taken into account for these hide checks, everything from weather, time of day, storms, weapon size, ship size, sail rank, exposure, land masses nearby etc.

If this happens I don't think you should RP the ship as being invisible, because its not, more like its probably manuvering with such a skilled crew and hiding behind rocks or landmasses firing at you.

ActionReplay wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:30 pm

-XXX- wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:29 pm Should ships be able to retain stealth even after opening fire?

I mean, mechanically I get that the sail skill difference between both crews can result in one of the ships becoming unspottable for the other crew, but this can lead to a fairly one-sided encounter.

Logically, bombards would leave a large trails of smoke after firing. I don't see how a ship could remain hidden after firing.

Or is there some balance related intent behind ships being able to fire while staying hidden?




(Imaskari cloaking device OP )

Firing will increase your exposure still and the heavier the weapon the more exposed you get, so still when firing it does decrease your hide. In this case I believe they were just out ranked in Sail why this happens. Realistic? Maybe not, but mechanically, it works as intended. There's a lot of factors taken into account for these hide checks, everything from weather, time of day, storms, weapon size, ship size, sail rank, exposure, land masses nearby etc.

If this happens I don't think you should RP the ship as being invisible, because its not, more like its probably manuvering with such a skilled crew and hiding behind rocks or landmasses firing at you.

Perhaps have their own corner sneak mechanic where they can attempt to restealth via maneuver? Especially since not all crews want to be unnoticeable and were trying to shout. Being able to non stop fire without consequence i think makes the sail skill be too binary in those situations. The lower sail ship already is at a major to hit disadvantage in terms of who hits who; the ship with the already major advantage doesn't need 0 second cooldown hips/wild surrge greater invisibility.

Suggestion: make continuous firing penalty to the stealth sail vs perception sail have a strong cumulative penalty that can be reset by spending time in some kind of repositioning maneuver.

You can engage in PvP on a ship without interactive roleplay?

Curve wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:22 pm You can engage in PvP on a ship without interactive roleplay?

Only for traditional pvp when you board an enemy ship. Ships firing at each other don't need to rp.

Ships firing at each other can result in character death?

Curve wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:35 pm Ships firing at each other can result in character death?

If the ship sinks, "jump overboard" mechanics apply, so in that case it is possible to die by drowning, yes.

PvP interactoin is done by raising flags and firing warning shots.

Pay attention to the flags.

Mechanically we can only talk to someone in the same quadrant, but we can fire within 2 quadrants. This does mean crews primarily communicate intent or 'Interaction' through the flag system.

Example: Raising the flag of andunor signals you are an Andunorian ship, and then raising the Black Flag after means 'Death or Surrender.' Therefore you have communicated 'We are an Andunorian ship, surrender or die.'

The flag system is quite detailed and includes meanings of each flag. Accessible by -ship settings command.

Players can also opt to raise false flags to decieve other ships.

One such example, a group of players raised the same nation flag as us, thus preventing us from firing upon them until we realized they were not in fact, from our nation. They used this method to successfully escape.

Wenchslayer wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:59 am PvP interactoin is done by raising flags and firing warning shots.

Pay attention to the flags.

Mechanically we can only talk to someone in the same quadrant, but we can fire within 2 quadrants. This does mean crews primarily communicate intent or 'Interaction' through the flag system.

Example: Raising the flag of andunor signals you are an Andunorian ship, and then raising the Black Flag after means 'Death or Surrender.' Therefore you have communicated 'We are an Andunorian ship, surrender or die.'

The flag system is quite detailed and includes meanings of each flag. Accessible by -ship settings command.

Players can also opt to raise false flags to decieve other ships.

One such example, a group of players raised the same nation flag as us, thus preventing us from firing upon them until we realized they were not in fact, from our nation. They used this method to successfully escape.

I know the flag is mentioned by the navigator when a ship is spotted, and that you can check it by speaking with the navigator again or using the spyglass, but do you know if you get a different separate warning whenever a nearby ship changes or raises a flag? If not, it sounds like it could be a potential very convenient quality of life update. It would make communication faster and more reliable.

You can't really see the flag if you never spot the ship now, can you?

I would be bummed if my character was killed by proxy with out a back and forth. More so if it happened with out even knowing where it comes from.

Based on everyone's reaction on our ship in that encounter, its not great that there's no way to fire back once we start getting hit. It didn't take them long to get us down to 5% hull either with the chain shots. So then we couldn't even run.

Knowing the Dreadnought likely has a bonus to hide from the darkness cloud and a bonus while near shore lines means its almost impossible for most ships to see them without massive sails numbers on there side as well, which if im honest only Andunor or Sencliff has access too given the spread of sailors on the surface cities.

To me it feels like pvp without the ability to even hit back, know whose hitting you or knowing which way to run Surely the giant cloud of ominous darkness on the horizon should be an indication, at least during the day...?

Big penalties to hitting a ship with vastly superior sail skill rather than just outright being unable to target them seems a bit more fair, and then you at least know who you're fighting.

A lot of this talk got me thinking after reading AR and Grumpy's input on pvp. I do think there are a few things that need to be clarified that were not exactly covered. Obviously ship pvp is a little different than on land pvp because you're effectively going to go through two completely different kinds of pvp in the total interaction. While I 100% agree with Grumpy on the Golden Rule (do unto others as you'd have done unto you) statement, I will offer up a couple of things;

1. How do we treat a ship pvp in terms of the 24 hour rule? Is it the same as on land pvp. Not allowed to engage or even be in the same zone without consent first? Example: If I blow up the Leviathan and chose to sit in Cordor local waters, is that crew not even allowed to go out on the water from that port? To me, it seems utterly wrong so I'd never do it myself but I can see it being abused and/or becoming a problem if not clarified. Also, if someone drowns as a result of a sinking, was it pvp and do the same pvp rules apply?

2. There's now a lot of extra steps than people had previously been taking for ship pvp. Things like AOE spells can be fired off on deck before boarders even make it on deck from grapple. Yes, the new transition rules give the temporary invulnerability but if you've ever played on the ship, you know how cramped they can be especially with fixtures on deck. A crew that gets grappled would know they are being boarded and boarded would certainly have intent to fight (just watch any good pirate movie for reference).

These are just a couple of the pitfalls I can think of at the moment in regards to the ship pvp.

Deac0knight wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:21 pm A lot of this talk got me thinking after reading AR and Grumpy's input on pvp. I do think there are a few things that need to be clarified that were not exactly covered. Obviously ship pvp is a little different than on land pvp because you're effectively going to go through two completely different kinds of pvp in the total interaction. While I 100% agree with Grumpy on the Golden Rule (do unto others as you'd have done unto you) statement, I will offer up a couple of things;

1. How do we treat a ship pvp in terms of the 24 hour rule? Is it the same as on land pvp. Not allowed to engage or even be in the same zone without consent first? Example: If I blow up the Leviathan and chose to sit in Cordor local waters, is that crew not even allowed to go out on the water from that port? To me, it seems utterly wrong so I'd never do it myself but I can see it being abused and/or becoming a problem if not clarified. Also, if someone drowns as a result of a sinking, was it pvp and do the same pvp rules apply?

2. There's now a lot of extra steps than people had previously been taking for ship pvp. Things like AOE spells can be fired off on deck before boarders even make it on deck from grapple. Yes, the new transition rules give the temporary invulnerability but if you've ever played on the ship, you know how cramped they can be especially with fixtures on deck. A crew that gets grappled would know they are being boarded and boarded would certainly have intent to fight (just watch any good pirate movie for reference).

These are just a couple of the pitfalls I can think of at the moment in regards to the ship pvp.

Not the answer you're looking for, but for

1- It is my understanding that if a ship gets blown up, it will lose it's upgrades. Or some of them. At which point it will need repairs so getting the ship destroyed and then sailing it again back to back wouldn't be feasible. And likewise, the death penalties would apply to the sail score too making this less of a thing.

Watchful Glare wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:08 am 1- It is my understanding that if a ship gets blown up, it will lose it's upgrades. Or some of them. At which point it will need repairs so getting the ship destroyed and then sailing it again back to back wouldn't be feasible. And likewise, the death penalties would apply to the sail score too making this less of a thing.

As a ship owner, I can tell you that ships don't lose anything when they sink (at least on player owned ships). No repairs are ever needed except by damage you suffer out at sea. However, if you sink, you just go without your quarters and storage until next reset. The only time a ship will lose it's upgrades is if it sits unused for a while and it begins to degrade. Ships used to have to be repaired over and over, but they do not any longer.

The reduction to the sail score because of the death penalties, for the most part, are not that bad for most hard core sailors with ample enough crews and proper gear. They certainly would not be a deterrent that would keep me from doing the sailing content after a brush with death.

My question was more about getting a ship sunk and then going back out on another ship. For example the Leviathan gets sunk so the crew that got sunk goes and rents a Iron Throne Courier in Guld and goes back out.

Deac0knight wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:21 pm A lot of this talk got me thinking after reading AR and Grumpy's input on pvp. I do think there are a few things that need to be clarified that were not exactly covered. Obviously ship pvp is a little different than on land pvp because you're effectively going to go through two completely different kinds of pvp in the total interaction. While I 100% agree with Grumpy on the Golden Rule (do unto others as you'd have done unto you) statement, I will offer up a couple of things;

1. How do we treat a ship pvp in terms of the 24 hour rule? Is it the same as on land pvp. Not allowed to engage or even be in the same zone without consent first? Example: If I blow up the Leviathan and chose to sit in Cordor local waters, is that crew not even allowed to go out on the water from that port? To me, it seems utterly wrong so I'd never do it myself but I can see it being abused and/or becoming a problem if not clarified. Also, if someone drowns as a result of a sinking, was it pvp and do the same pvp rules apply?

2. There's now a lot of extra steps than people had previously been taking for ship pvp. Things like AOE spells can be fired off on deck before boarders even make it on deck from grapple. Yes, the new transition rules give the temporary invulnerability but if you've ever played on the ship, you know how cramped they can be especially with fixtures on deck. A crew that gets grappled would know they are being boarded and boarded would certainly have intent to fight (just watch any good pirate movie for reference).

These are just a couple of the pitfalls I can think of at the moment in regards to the ship pvp.

1)
We've had boarding and such for a long time, and this has never to my memory been an issue that's come up - so I'm not too concerned about making rules or rulings reguarding it as I don't think it's a big deal.
Mostly it's just following common sense. But for what it's worth some pointers are
*You probably shouldn't be attacking ships that you've boarded/destroyed within 24 hours if those ships are perma owned ships (Leviathan, Dreadnaught ect). Even if they don't have some of the same crew on them, they are owned by the same faction and attacking the same faction twice within 24 hours seems a bit douchy to me, even if it's not specifically against the rules.
* Temp owned ships are probably safer to attack as they have a very rotating crew.
* Yes you can be in the same quadrent as someone sure. Just don't interact (or attack) the ship you've previously attacked/destroyed.
* Yes, I'd say dying via drowning to the other side counts as a pvp death and kicks in the 24 hours rule.
* If you some how inadvertently end up facing off against someone you've already killed in pvp (In ship or otherwise) then my suggestion is to either back off, or take it to tells and (politely!) negotiate how to deal with the situaiton, keeping in mind that the looser of the last battle should give way to the winner in most circumstances.
* If you're genuinly worried that you might be pvped twice in 24 hours with the ship system, consider perhaps avoiding it for the 24 hours after death?
* If you're genuinly worried you might PvP someone twice in 24 hours due to the ship system, consider maybe not pvping so many ships?
* If you're considering using the 24 hour rules as a cover to do shady stuff with no hope of reprisal... don't.

We'll look at all these sitatuions case by case of course, taking into account situation, prior behaviour et cetera, et cetera.

2)
I'll talk to the DM team about this. But I'd say consider it like any other pvp. Roleplay first. No ongoing magical effects on transitions (or at least not until you're SURE everyone from the other ship has landed. I'd make allowences for ship size, that's true.) Thinking about it - most ongoing effects probably arn't that great for the ship themselves. Maybe I should talk to AR about such spells making the ships hull weaker or something? Hrmm.

It is my understanding that when you get sunk on a ship, you may possibly get sent to the death zone. If you die piloting a ship 24 hour rules do apply. However, if you can evacuate and safely leave the ship, the rules in that case likely would not apply.

This makes sense, as when you sink a ship and the crew portals away, no one is actually killed in the encounter and the ship is sunk until next reset.

This seems a nice compromise in PvP.