Arelith

The current policy of the administration considers information surrounding Scry to largely be FOIG (find-out-in-game).

The idea being to encourage RP around the mechanic by forcing players to interact with those who know the mechanic ICly for wisdom.

My own thoughts on this are that it is unfair to newer players to the server who don't benefit from having a past character who discovered the mechanics, or having a friend inform them OOC (A common occurrence that we should acknowledge exists). But it's also harmful to those characters who through their own progression would know about such mechanics ICly but not OOCly, an epic diviner or abjurer should be able to know about their abilities without having to engage in 'teaching roleplay' to do so; otherwise why not hide the effects of all spells and have them be learned through trial and error, even if it's only for arelith specific spells.

And to those who want to learn about these mechanics IC, because it fits their RP or they find it fun. Having the information accessible doesn't stop them from doing so if it's in a somewhat out of the way area like the wiki, or even have it spoilered tag.

What I would propose is adding a bracketed area with how blocking scrying works, and perhaps any other mechanics related to scrying that aren't currently listed.

I feel strongly about this topic and FOIG itself is a charged word, but I honestly think the current state of information is harmful, not just to the new players arelith receives at increasing rates, but to knowledgeable character archetypes as well.

I don't like any mechanics that benefit closed groups that teach each other things OOC. It's a mechanic that should be transparent so people understand how to deal with it. It can very, very severely impact characters. It's not like the astrolabe or the deck of stars, or other flavour things. Scrying gives a very tangible benefit to scriers, it's a pvp skill in that the player versus player element is the information a scrier is gaining to use against other players. Heck, it's even used to locate people to actually PvP them. Why are people not allowed to know how to block it?

An issue Skane didn't bring up is that it makes it hard to discuss bugs when scry warding isn't functioning how it should, which happened earlier this year.

If Scry was a vanilla spell, it would be recorded in the Neverwinter Nights Wiki, as well as its counters, and no one would care or be crying FOIG at it.

I wouldn't mind if FOIG, so far as hard mechanics go, just stopped being a thing.

I learned how to counter scrying OOC, years ago, and I didn't even ask - because I didn't even know characters could scry either. Someone just told me while I was asking for help about clerics.

Sometimes I feel like it's a thing because it's always been a thing therefore it must continue to be a thing and to enforce it we all engage in this weird collective willful delusion. I bet every comment in this thread knows the counters.

Arelith has such a rich world, great NPCs, neat locations, challenging dungeons, and like 10 years of totally custom classes, skills, spells, and interactions to catch up on as it is. I don't know why we need to hide scry counters when there's so many interesting things to do and see just naturally in the game.

The scry mechanic is open information.
The primary counter to the scry mechanic is open information.

Alternative counter to the scry mechanic is FOIG.

Leraning it IC is usually a matter of minimal effort RP. Just ask somebody IC - there's interesting RP potential there that would have been lost had all the details been open information.
Refusal to be bothered with something so straightforward as asking a wizard how magic works IC should result in ignorance IMO.

I'd prefer this information to remain foig.

The moment a mystery is added to the wiki, it ceases being a mystery, even if wiki is optional. Even if it is a small mystery.

-XXX- wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:32 am The scry mechanic is open information.
The primary counter to the scry mechanic is open information.

Alternative counter to the scry mechanic is FOIG.

Leraning it IC is usually a matter of minimal effort RP. Just ask somebody IC - there's interesting RP potential there that would have been lost had all the details been open information.
Refusal to be bothered with something so straightforward as asking a wizard how magic works IC should result in ignorance IMO.

And if you are the wizard who.. should know how magic works? Should it still result in ignorance?

And what interesting RP potential, you say it's minimal effort to get this information, presumably then the RP doesn't have that much 'value' although I would say the value of any RP is the enjoyment an individual player gets from it.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:36 am And if you are the wizard who.. should know how magic works? Should it still result in ignorance?

Yes, because some things must be learned from somewhere and not all of them should be available through enlightenment out of nowhere.

Void wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:35 am I'd prefer this information to remain foig.

The moment a mystery is added to the wiki, it ceases being a mystery, even if wiki is optional. Even if it is a small mystery.

Yes, because some things must be learned from somewhere and not all of them should be available through enlightenment out of nowhere.

Does it have to be a mystery to everyone to be a mystery to you? The goal ideally is to have every player enjoy the game equally, so does having scry explained detract from the fun for you who would prefer it to remain FOIG.

How is it all of them? It's a specific topic related to the specialization of two seperate schools of magic, why is the line here, on this specific spell, and no other.

This is a mechanic people use to locate people to PK them. Why should it be FOIG?

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:36 am And if you are the wizard who.. should know how magic works? Should it still result in ignorance?

And what interesting RP potential, you say it's minimal effort to get this information, presumably then the RP doesn't have that much 'value' although I would say the value of any RP is the enjoyment an individual player gets from it.

What Void said - even wizards need to learn magic somehow
Besides, the master-apprentice dynamic lead to some of the most enjoyable RP that I had the opportunity to experience on this server. 10/10 would do again, fully recommend.


Furthermore, there is a downside to having everything open information. Post everything on the wiki and the next thing you see are paladins lecturing necromancers how animation works or warlocks being exposed left and right based on little more than mechanical evidence.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:48 am This is a mechanic people use to locate people to PK them. Why should it be FOIG?

If scry had any other real use I'd be against it, but

also foig for mechanical stuff was a bad idea when mithreas said it to defend a secret truenaming system that didn't exist and its a bad idea now
Anyway I just think it's funny how like,
minor mechanical information that every vet player knows: foig master apprentice rp
the dozens of spells and abilities you learn for free by leveling up, including scrying: this just happens ha hee

-XXX- wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:50 am

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:36 am And if you are the wizard who.. should know how magic works? Should it still result in ignorance?

And what interesting RP potential, you say it's minimal effort to get this information, presumably then the RP doesn't have that much 'value' although I would say the value of any RP is the enjoyment an individual player gets from it.

What Void said - even wizards need to learn magic somehow
Besides, the master-apprentice dynamic lead to some of the most enjoyable RP that I had the opportunity to experience on this server. 10/10 would do again, fully recommend.


Furthermore, there is a downside to having everything open information. Post everything on the wiki and the next thing you see are paladins lecturing necromancers how animation works or warlocks being exposed left and right based on little more than mechanical evidence.

Wizards get two spells each level independent of a teacher, and any epic spell.

Also what you propose might happen already happens, but that's wholly unrelated to the specific topic of scrying.

I am glad you enjoyed your master-apprentice RP, one of my more enjoyable RP experiences was as a result of that dynamic as well. But a poor student is one who needs everything hand-fed to them, or so Archmage [redacted] told my PC.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:42 am Does it have to be a mystery to everyone to be a mystery to you?

Yes, because if it is not a mystery to everyone (or at least to majority) it is no longer a mystery.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:42 am The goal ideally is to have every player enjoy the game equally,

That goal is impossible to achieve, as people prefer different things. The game in the first place is geared towards people who seek roleplaying content and does not target "every player". For example, it does not really cater to people who want constant pvp deathmatch with level 40 cap and +10 items available to all. It also does not cater to people who would prefer to play as a horse in that deathmatch. It also does not cater to people who seek 18+/XX content and sexy elven fun times. (edit: auto-censor? heh)

So the goal is not to make every player enjoy the game, but to make the game enjoyable for specific niche it is catering to, and that is people who are interested in roleplaying.

Targeting roleplaying means unsolved mysteries, things that cannot be found in a wiki online, and also long running storylines. If that goal was followed to the extreme, there would be no wiki and no build section on the forums, and all information would need to be discovered in the game. So current situation is already a compromise for people who are less interested in some aspects.

And that's just "making things enjoyable". Making them "enjoyable equally" is impossible. Besides, if someone is enjoying it more, what are you going to do? Punish them so they don't enjoy it too much anymore?

Regarding the scry-related FOIG information I, personally, at the moment do not know it, despite having characters that would qualify. And that is fine.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:55 am Wizards get two spells each level independent of a teacher, and any epic spell.

And that's why I mentioned enlightenment from nowhere.
Note that they do not get every spell and they do not get every epic spell.
Which means you can only take the enlightenment so far, the rest must be learned, and some things will forever remain a mystery, as you'll never master them.

skane is right

Void wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:35 am I'd prefer this information to remain foig.

The moment a mystery is added to the wiki, it ceases being a mystery, even if wiki is optional. Even if it is a small mystery.

Normally I agree with this, especially with mysteries and discoveries.
But when it comes to a defensive PvP tool, I think it should be open knowledge.

Besides, in the Forgotten Realms, there is already a spell that counters scry. It's called Nondetection. Why it's not already a spell on here is beyond me. It certainly should be.

Void wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:57 am

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:42 am Does it have to be a mystery to everyone to be a mystery to you?

Yes, because if it is not a mystery to everyone (or at least to majority) it is no longer a mystery.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:42 am The goal ideally is to have every player enjoy the game equally,

That goal is impossible to achieve, as people prefer different things. The game in the first place is geared towards people who seek roleplaying content and does not target "every player". For example, it does not really cater to people who want constant pvp deathmatch with level 40 cap and +10 items available to all. It also does not cater to people who would prefer to play as a horse in that deathmatch. It also does not cater to people who seek 18+/XX content and sexy elven fun times. (edit: auto-censor? heh)

So the goal is not to make every player enjoy the game, but to make the game enjoyable for specific niche it is catering to, and that is people who are interested in roleplaying.

Targeting roleplaying means unsolved mysteries, things that cannot be found in a wiki online, and also long running storylines. If that goal was followed to the extreme, there would be no wiki and no build section on the forums, and all information would need to be discovered in the game. So current situation is already a compromise for people who are less interested in some aspects.

And that's just "making things enjoyable". Making them "enjoyable equally" is impossible. Besides, if someone is enjoying it more, what are you going to do? Punish them so they don't enjoy it too much anymore?

And if scrying in effect caters to those who want a deathmatch server rather than to RP?

I'd also like to add that just because a player doesn't know, doesn't mean the character doesn't either. Are we expected to have a high intelligence in real life to be able to roleplay a Wizard? Of course not, that's absurd.

There's tons of information that we don't know as players but that our characters do know.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:55 am Wizards get two spells each level independent of a teacher, and any epic spell.

Wizards primarily learn spells from tomes, sorcerers inherit it through their bloodline. Both classes gaining spells independent of their teacher makes perfect sense.
However, knowing a spell and knowing when and how to use it are two different things entirely.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:55 am But a poor student is one who needs everything hand-fed to them, or so Archmage [redacted] told my PC.

The teacher gatekeeping knowledge from their student sounds like the foundation of a very interesting story arc that can lead to a shift in their relationship dynamic (conflict) and/or the student seeking knowledge (or a new mentor) elswhere.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 2:06 am And if scrying in effect caters to those who want a deathmatch server rather than to RP?

Your request sounds a lot like you want to know everything in advance and prepare for it in advance, and you want it available before you made a character.

That's kinda.... an interesting request for a RP server. As you'll be missing opportunity to make mistake being unaware of something and a lot of fun that will follow from it. Because the fun from RP server comes from unexpected.

Others mentioned that the problem can be solved through interaction with other characters. So you can try doing that.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:55 am But a poor student is one who needs everything hand-fed to them, or so Archmage [redacted] told my PC.

And so what? That's a character's opinon. Work aroudn it.

Possible ways:
* Find another mage and ask.
* Butter up this archmage and earn their favor so they tell.
* Take their denial of knowledge to the heart, and murder the archmage.

See? That's an opportunity for a ton of fun right here. You want to waste it and desire the knowledge to be granted to you via OOC means.

-XXX- wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 2:09 am However, knowing a spell and knowing when and how to use it are two different things entirely.

Yup.
Me, on the very first true flame:
*Why the heck would I want a floating dagger?*

Void wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 2:12 am

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 2:06 am And if scrying in effect caters to those who want a deathmatch server rather than to RP?

Your request sounds a lot like you want to know everything in advance and prepare for it in advance, and you want it available before you made a character.

That's kinda.... an interesting request for a RP server. As you'll be missing opportunity to make mistake being unaware of something and a lot of fun that will follow from it. Because the fun from RP server comes from unexpected.

Others mentioned that the problem can be solved through interaction with other characters. So you can try doing that.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:55 am But a poor student is one who needs everything hand-fed to them, or so Archmage [redacted] told my PC.

And so what? That's a character's opinon. Work aroudn it.

Possible ways:
* Find another mage and ask.
* Butter up this archmage and earn their favor so they tell.
* Take their denial of knowledge to the heart, and murder the archmage.

See? That's an opportunity for a ton of fun right here. You want to waste it and desire the knowledge to be granted to you via OOC means.

It's not a request it's an observation, scry is used so often for pvp we have a term for it, (scry-gank), and I /do/ know how scry works, and the many ways to counter it. Painting this as an attempt to personally benefit me is disingenuous

An anecdote was provided by xxx, an anecdote was given, if one is invalid for being an opinion, both are.

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 2:16 am It's not a request it's an observation, scry is used so often for pvp we have a term for it, (scry-gank), and

And what's the problem with that? Work around it or learn how to counter it. In the game.

If your character made someone really upset, of COURSE they're going to spy via magic and seek their "reavenge". Work around it.

Void wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 2:12 am all that

Here's the thing: A good few of us DO know all of this stuff in advance, and DO know it before making a character.
Off top I know:
Scry mechanics
Dragonshape feat location
where the old warlock pact npcs were
totem shape npc
probably every astrolabe link
the stupid div auras

Why should I have this advantage over a new player? Because I've been here longer?

Void wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 2:22 am

Skane wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 2:16 am It's not a request it's an observation, scry is used so often for pvp we have a term for it, (scry-gank), and

And what's the problem with that? Work around it or learn how to counter it. In the game.

If your character made someone really upset, of COURSE they're going to spy via magic and seek their "reavenge". Work around it.

How to do it is provided OOC, how to counter it should be as well, otherwise why do we have builds on the wiki? Why do we have mechanical advice period?

By this same logic we should remove all mechanical explanations outside whats available in the base wiki, and allow people to figure out whats best IG.

We don't, because that's not fair, just like this isn't fair.