Arelith

As other have said, I want to start by giving a huge kudos on the paladin update and to Kal in particular. What an amazing, incredibly talented, dedicated, and inventive dev team we have. I especially think Oath of the Ancients is really cool and am keen on playing a character that takes it.

Still, there is one thing that bothers me a bit, and it has to do with the fact that the paladin doesn't benefit in any way from wisdom anymore. I *do* love that the class isn't locked into taking 11 wisdom, and I appreciate that there are options to go deep into the class without having to spend points in wisdom.

Still, I can't help but wish that there were at least options to take a bit of wisdom and get something out of it. There's a notion in D&D that Paladins, or at least many Paladins, are discerning and cautious in their judgment, are aware of their behavior and its effects on the world around them, have a very nuanced as opposed to zealous understanding of their ethical codes, and are thoughtful mediators. That, and rolling up a planned Oath of Ancients/Harper Priest build and seeing 8 wisdom on my character sheet just feels... wrong.

I'm certainly not asking that wisdom be mandatory, but perhaps in a future update the developers might consider adding some sort of boon or perk that scales with wisdom, which would be offset by the sacrifice to other stats. Maybe one of the Oaths, specifically, could incorporate it. Maybe it could be a bonus feat of some kind that the paladin gets at a certain level, provided their wisdom is above a certain amount (for example, free Iron Will at 16 and free Epic Will at 26). Maybe they could get an additional use per day of Lay on Hands for each positive wisdom modifier. In sum, something that incentivizes taking wisdom but gives the option not to, and is useful but not game breaking, might be a nice addition to an otherwise fantastic update.

the rp stats or not on arelith consensus was rp as wise as you want with wis 8, no?

Or you more concerned about this subconsciously pushing the masses to rp Paladins as lawful stupid; as there are varying viewpoints on this?

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:49 pm the rp stats or not on arelith consensus was rp as wise as you want with wis 8, no?

Or you more concerned about this subconsciously pushing the masses to rp Paladins as lawful stupid; as there are varying viewpoints on this?

Unless there's been a big change the DMs have always told the players to roleplay their stats. I would appreciate some clarification on this.

Dr. B wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:12 pm Unless there's been a big change the DMs have always told the players to roleplay their stats. I would appreciate some clarification on this.

I also would like this clarified. If we’re not playing our character’s stats and skills, we’re not really roleplaying, are we?

Edit: I forgot to say that I think this is a neat idea, and it might be cool to incentivize people putting stats to reflect the archetype.

Roleplaying is 1st rule of Arelith's five golden rules.

From the explained rule at the wiki:

"You are expected to roleplay your character sheet to the best of your abilities. If your character becomes more Intimidating over the course of time on the island, I'd expect to see some points dropped into Intimidate. We have skills for a reason (beyond how much AC you can add with Tumble)."

"To be clear - I expect (and sometimes encourage) wiggle-room with a character's abilities in favor of furthering roleplay, but like all things, there's a certain line that I don't encourage players to cross. This isn't my opinion, this is the first rule of the server. You are expected to roleplay - A paladin is expected to roleplay a paladin, a druid is expected to roleplay a druid, and an RDD is expected to roleplay an RDD.
Skills aren't any different. The backbone of a character's roleplay is represented by the character sheet. Without this sort of interpretation of these guidelines, we can't keep the integrity of the server where we want it to be. If we allow people to RP having a high bluff, for example, when on their character sheet it reads -1, that isn't any different than someone wearing a horned helmed and claiming he's a half-balor; mechanical limitations are there to uphold the server's integrity."

With that, I'd like to say I agree with this post. Having a bunch of 8 wisdom paladins running around is bad for, well, everyone. Incentive to increase your wisdom as a paladin would be really good.

Probably a stupid idea but it would be fun if you had paladin key off the higher stat. Then you can have zealots and judges.

Due to the limitations of 2da files and the way NWN1 works, it's probably impossible to have a casting class key off of the higher of two stats, sadly. You'd have to make two separate classes or implement every spell as a class ability with a custom script.


But in regard to the discussion generally, I agree. It feels weird to have a class defined by adhering to a moral code be mechanically encouraged to dump WIS.

The update gave legacy paladins +1 AC to compensate for having to build with at least 11 WIS. I suggest that this be changed from a grandfathered perk to a general feature. Paladins with at least 11 WIS always get +1 AC, regardless of when they were made.

Archnon wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:01 pm Probably a stupid idea but it would be fun if you had paladin key off the higher stat. Then you can have zealots and judges.

im sure there's probably balance considerations for why this is a bad idea but at face value I kinda like this idea

Role-playing is first, but many people associated to team balance will say don't let your cha 8 on all your non cha using characters determine your roleplay. In 3.x if you wear a stat modifying item for 24 hrs, that stat is considered your faculty ehich includes intelligence when developing a character concept on a lvl 30bserver being lotrrsl with stats in a stat buy system doesnt work; otherwise all leaders need to be div dips because any class not using charisma is balanced around the assumption of taking 8 charisma.

The roleplay not rollplay where the community doesn't care about your persuade skill, but the actaul words out of your mouth pragmatically applies to all the mental stats. For years new players seeking build advice have been shot down when wanting to take 13 instead of 8 cha on cookie cutter rogue for roleplay reasons.

Do we need to rp our actaul alignment/faith restrictions, absolutely; but no one is policing 4 cha duergar because duergars would never be producing roleplay if they were all literally 4 charisma.

There's no way out of this. Wisdom measures your ability to deliberate well or poorly, and a character with low wisdom is bad at that. Your view is simply that we should ignore this fact. For some reason, I can't. Looking at the number "-1" on my character sheet and then playing a socially perceptive, morally adept character like the one I'm planning makes me cringe. It's the negative number that really gets to me; it's not just that my character's wisdom isn't high, but that there's some defect in their judgment severe enough that it needs a negative number to represent it. The stats don't lie: my character is a doofus and acting like they're not feels disingenuous. May I also play an 8 int character like they're articulate and knowledgeable?

I feel your pain and I reflect low WIS on my characters. I love playing characters with positive WIS. That being said, why should paladins get something more than anyone else for being wise? You get more WILL save for more wisdom and the ability to have that wisdom reflected in your RP. So, while empathetic I think that if you want more of a particular stat you should take more of that stat.

Why do people obsess over RPing stats when people often don't RP their class dips?

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:19 am Why do people obsess over RPing stats when people often don't RP their class dips?

Because "people" are not monoliths and there is divergence in behavior

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:19 am Why do people obsess over RPing stats when people often don't RP their class dips?

Oh we obsess over class dips too. Different perspective, same struggle.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:19 am Why do people obsess over RPing stats when people often don't RP their class dips?

To be fair, it’s not an either/or thing. They should be doing both.

Honestly the same could be said in reverse for clerics. There are a +lot+ of deities you'd have to be extremely un-wise to worship and low-wisdom, charisma-based acolytes could be an option, but even if you're a niche high charisma cleric you need 19 wisdom for spells. I'm not saying that ought to change but it's something you have to work around since D&D classes tend to be built around the staunchest archetypes and if you want to play a cleric of an insane and dangerous or even just impractical deity many players toss their high wisdom out the window to play the character they want in a way that isn't completely worthless.

If you want to have integrity with an oath of ancients paladin you could have owls wisdom and +wis clothes for when you act as judge? Or play knowing the tenets of your church and enforcing them without making your own judgement calls? I'm not dismissing the OP and the question has merit just pointing out you could work around it if the devs decide not to make the class more flexible.

ElvenEdibles wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:21 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:19 am Why do people obsess over RPing stats when people often don't RP their class dips?

Because "people" are not monoliths and there is divergence in behavior

But a Paladin is a warrior devoted to their god. A rogue is a skilled specialist of sorts. A bard is someone who is knowledgeable of the world to some degree and can tap into the arcane through their will and whim. People aren’t monoliths, but the archetypes that are these classes do exist on a basic, defined level.

Duchess Says wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:23 am Honestly the same could be said in reverse for clerics. There are a +lot+ of deities you'd have to be extremely un-wise to worship and low-wisdom, charisma-based acolytes could be an option, but even if you're a niche high charisma cleric you need 19 wisdom for spells. I'm not saying that ought to change but it's something you have to work around since D&D classes tend to be built around the staunchest archetypes and if you want to play a cleric of an insane and dangerous or even just impractical deity many players toss their high wisdom out the window to play the character they want in a way that isn't completely worthless.

If you want to have integrity with an oath of ancients paladin you could add some wisdom or have owls wisdom and +wis clothes for when you act as judge? Or play knowing the tenets of your church and enforcing them without making your own judgement calls? I'm not dismissing the OP and the question has merit just pointing out you could work around it if the devs decide not to make the class more flexible.

I agree with your second paragraph, and I find that it's an amazing suggestion of how to handle it. A paladin aware of their shortcomings drinking a potion of owl's wisdom every morning? That makes for amazing story material.

As for your first paragraph, it's not that simple. Our characters don't have an almighty perspective on all the deities like we do. They have grown up in their respective culture. It could be Amn, where Cyric is accepted and revered by some.
You have to understand, they don't just look at a spreadsheet and pick a deity. That's not how it works. Clerics get their powers from a god that chooses to grant them to the cleric, for whatever reasons.
Their motives are more than just "this deity bad, this one good". To them there are many charastistics at play, various reasons why someone might zealously worship Bane, Loviatar, or any other of the evil and even mad gods.

Kriegos wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:28 am But a Paladin is a warrior devoted to their god. A rogue is a skilled specialist of sorts. A bard is someone who is knowledgeable of the world to some degree and can tap into the arcane through their will and whim. People aren’t monoliths, but the archetypes that are these classes do exist on a basic, defined level.

I was referring to "Why do people do/don't do x when they already do/don't do y"
Real life people.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:19 am Why do people obsess over RPing stats when people often don't RP their class dips?

Please don't paint everyone with the same brush or assume people are hypocrites.

I can't speak for others, but I've always tried to represent a character's second or third classes in their roleplay. If they dipped into paladin levels, they are a paladin. If they've dabbled in blackguard, then they've tried to make contact with evil outsiders to boost their power.

It's also a great way of naturally expanding character depth. Bard dip on a weapon master? Be like one of the warriors of old that studied calligraphy to improve their swordplay and practiced poetry to keep the mind agile.

One of the core experiences of DnD is playing the character as represented on your sheet, for better or for worse.

RPing your stats is good policy but I think there has to be some leeway.

At one point Arelith was a place you could play a suboptimal build for RP sake but that’s no longer a good idea for a few reasons. Holding your own in PVP against everyone else is the most obvious but also future-proofing against these frequent class changes is another, the devs assume everyone is playing the most popular option and tweak for that which means a minor nerf for the recommended built often trashes something that went off the beaten path.

So on a paladin where you need high strength, high charisma, decent constitution and 13+ intelligence you’re not going to see most players do anything but minimum wisdom and dexterity. Maybe a few martyrs will put a point or two in wisdom to acknowledge their paladin is wise but most won’t, not unless the idea of a wisdom based paladin path gets taken up.

So most paladins are going to be 8 wisdom with all that entails. The question then is, is that what we want to see or do we want leeway for a paladin to have some qualities of a “wise” judge or whatever if that makes for a more interesting character and story? I’d personally just rather look the other way if someone is fudging their stats a bit (especially the ones that dictate personality) to play a character that inspires them but isn’t really supported by the rigid classes of NWN. Maybe others would rather see that creativity suppressed and demand all paladins who are going to be built the same play with the same personality constraints. I understand the reasoning for that but don’t think it makes for better characters to play or play with, it's going to lead to a lot of sameness.

Eyeliner wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:00 am snip

All right, got two main points here so I'll do my best to split them.

First off, Arelith isn't a competitive PvP environment. It really isn't. I know there's plenty of discussion on discord and elsewhere about making sure your character has 'kill pressure' and making sure you have certain minimal stats to be 'relevant,' but that doesn't translate to the daily experience of most players.

When PvP happens on Arelith, it's extremely rarely (read: never) a set piece match between evenly-built and geared characters with roughly similarly skilled players in which having minmaxed an extra point of AB would matter. Rather, it's a laggy comedy of errors with players failing to hit key buttons, panicking or freezing up, screwed over by NWN pathing, with big battles decided by which half of the zerg managed to transition into the mess intact.

There are many experienced players who don't have the inclination to build meta, but rather build for aesthetics. They take a cookie cutter build and purposefully make it a little less competitive by making quirky choices that suit what they want to play.

And there are many players that just don't experience PvP or see it but once in a blue moon, because PvP just isn't relevant to their playstyle. They don't like politics, or like adventuring on their own or with a small group of buddies, or have roleplay styles in which initiating or seeking conflict isn't their first choice. And even if you have a political character, it's very easy to miss the PvP moments just by having a different TZ or by not paying attention to discord.

Like, if you're here for PvP, you're playing the wrong game. There's a very inefficient build-up / preparation to 'good fight' ratio of time expenditure. Props to you if you have the talent and wherewithal for playing an ARPG competitively. That said, if you do, you're wasting your time here. Head into Dota 2 or LoL, go pro, and make yourself a lot of money. A lot of money.

Or play a less janky game that -feels- better. Try Lost Ark, the gameplay is amazing and it's coming out of beta soon.

So yes, you can still play suboptimal stuff on Arelith. People do that all the time and have fun, whether to challenge themselves on Arelith's honestly very easy PvE content, or because they have a fun idea they want to explore. Or because they like roleplaying to their character sheet.

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Point two. People playing to their character sheet aren't 'suppressing creativity' or making rigid RP demands on everyone else. At least I'm not, and I'm hoping no one else is. No one really sees your character sheet except yourself and the DMs, unless you decide to share it. The examine stats have multiple in-game methods to obsfuscate or fudge them, and purposefully miss key stats. Like, in this case, your paladin's wisdom.

Rather, players are doing what's fun for themselves. And when it comes to why many people still play this janky, decades-old game with a bad interface and numerous built-in bugs that we've just learned to live around, what's fun is making fleshed out DnD characters and having them interact in a persistent world.

So when they're asking for more reasons to make unconventional or less streamlined characters - like in this case, paladins that are as mechanically wise as they're portrayed - it's not to rag on people that play cookie cutter and ignore mental stats in RP. It's for the sake of their own fun and comfort level.

Eyeliner wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:00 am RPing your stats is good policy but I think there has to be some leeway.

At one point Arelith was a place you could play a suboptimal build for RP sake but that’s no longer a good idea for a few reasons. Holding your own in PVP against everyone else is the most obvious but also future-proofing against these frequent class changes is another, the devs assume everyone is playing the most popular option and tweak for that which means a minor nerf for the recommended built often trashes something that went off the beaten path.

I share your feelings! Personally I love non-optimum builds, but I cannot bring myself to make one because I know the horrors of the dungeons. And yet someone kept complaining everything is too simple. Players have to drink 10 bottles of potions before every battle because that...apparently that is how this game is designed?

Besides I feel bad every time seeing a change was made because...PVP? Is Arelith a pvp server or is it RP server? Last time someone was convincing me hide in plain sight must go because shadowdancer can hide in pvp, that is ridiculous.

If your wisdom score needs to matter, charisma is next. And I doubt anyone on this server wants to go down that rabbit hole. Arelith is a casual server. If it were a beer, it would be Amstel light. Perfectly fine to get your buzz on with and have a good time with friends, but if you have tasted richer full body brews before you are well aware of the missed potential.

That being said, while I haven't really gotten to playing around with the new paladin yet, the +3 ability points at kick off on a class who's power potential was only limited by how spread out it was across attributes is just screaming "Break me!", and I have no doubt that in due time someone will. Having tried to make a paladin/cot/wm work, I can tell you first-hand the reason I landed on fighter/cot/wm as the better build had a lot to do with having to start with 11 wisdom.

Duchess Says wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:23 am Honestly the same could be said in reverse for clerics. There are a +lot+ of deities you'd have to be extremely un-wise to worship

Wisdom represents attunement to the world, perception, intuition, insight and so on.
A high wisdom character can absoluitely be a murderously delusional lunatic follower of Urdlen or Tharizdun.

Eyeliner wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:00 am
At one point Arelith was a place you could play a suboptimal build for RP sake but that’s

Nothing changed, you can still do that.

Eyeliner wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:00 am do we want leeway for a paladin to have some qualities of a “wise” judge or whatever

I'd prefer people to play their sheet and classes properly. And no leeways.