Arelith

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:01 pm**

The problem with Weapon Master is both simultaneously it's the greatest strength and greatest weakness. I didn't put this in the Arelith bug forum because ... it's just been an "accepted" part of Arelith for so long.

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::PLEASE READ THE FULL ARTICLE, INCLUDING THE BOTTOM BEFORE REPLYING::
Some of this is related to advanced 'beneath the hood' Neverwinter Nights hard-code mechanics.

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Arelith's unique alteration to Whirlwind Attack:
Default NWN's Whirlwind is a full-round action that would make it effectively useless given that most enemies in Arelith are effectively hitpoint sponges ... Arelith 'solves' this by making it a 'Free Action'. But it still acquires a 'random target' afterward (rather than the one you are already targeting), and it screws up initiative order...

Example:
Sometimes a weapons master gains what is essentially a 3 attack flurry doing 150 damage every hit. Sometimes a weapons master does a WW, and gets hit 6 times in a row without being able to attack back and has to move or jiggle before they can re-enter initiative. Any experienced weapons master player has seen this, and it's ... not exactly straightforward mechanical gameplay for new players who don't know Arelith or NWN's quirks.

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The issue currently with it is that.. it is both janky, and screws up initiative order, AND overpowered. Smite is amazing. Kalopsia did ... insane code-work and it functions in a really cool way. Is there a way something similar can be done to make Whirlwind feel less clunky and more predictable?

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Whirlwind Explaination:
Essentially the main use of Whirlwind is ... what I call: "Neutral Stick Whirlwind" ... drive-mode in like a guided missile with your keyboard to drop your target, stop touching drive-mode... and then Whirlwind.

You auto-acquire the nearest target, and I feel like it breaks your initiative order, as sometimes, you get "Whirlwind, Attack, Attack, attack, attack" (which can be 100+ damage PER attack) and sometimes you get "Whirlwind--" Get Attacked, Get Attacked, Get Attacked, Get Attacked.

The explanation for this may be: "Whirlwind is instant", "I get surprise round", "I got initiative afterward" ... but the effect is kind of devastating and anyone who's played Weapons Master long enough knows what this is and (ST)Ranger double-sword Weapon Master is effectively built to abuse this, moving it from 5 attack ambush from a crit-heavy class, to 6 attacks by effectively dual-wielding scimitars. (Double swords.)

And THIS issue.. is why I feel Weapons Master has just been mechanically the same since I came to Arelith. "Mastery" of abusing this against targets already swinging in Initiative Order is pretty much key to successful "weapons master" play, and I've had this discussion with a lot of weapons masters, (particularly half-orc meta-enthusiasts). And Arelith has grown comfortable with this because it's been in place so long... but I'd like to shake it up.

This isn't engaging game design and while it may be an interesting mechanic? The feedback on what is happening is anti-intuitive. At the same time? Smite is a lot of code, Whirlwind has a 10-second cooldown, and unlimited uses per day, and affects a lot of targets and not all people who have Whirlwind are weapons masters.

If Whirlwind cannot be fixed.. I propose the following, fully aware the Whirlwind code is ... 'simplistic' and hardcoded: DoWhirlwindAttack(TRUE, bImproved);

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The First Change of my Proposition:
Linking the cooldown of "Ki-Strike" and "Whirlwind" (and potentially smites?)... and making Ki-Strike function in the same 'instant attack' method as Smite.

This way Weapons Masters don't get ADDITIONAL burst to use in tandem with Whirlwind, but there is also a cleaner single-target method. And potentially? Linking the cleaner, 'Instant Attacks' together in the future to prevent some weird build from utilizing them all at once.

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The Second Change of my Proposition:
As I said above; I am aware the Whirlwind code is ... 'simplistic': DoWhirlwindAttack(TRUE, bImproved);

Is there a way it could detect if you have a current combat target, and re-acquire your target after doing the whirlwind attack? Even if this basically, automatically created the initiative order bug that hurt a weapons master's functionality ... it could create good justification for Weapons Masters to use the above Ki-Critical in single target situations...

"Do I have a combat target? Record it in the variable. Do Whirlwind Attack. Is my target alive? Re-acquire saved target."

Doing this would INTENTIONALLY break Whirlwind's "Whirlwind/Surprise/Won Initiative" so that you basically automatically lose a flurry, which makes the above change to the 'Smite' system for Ki Strike ... basically mandatory for the normal functionality of the class.

And even if this combination of changes "hurt" weapons master's power by breaking their initiative so they ALWAYS lose a flurry It could still functionally work as a grounding axis on which to alter the class in the future for balance changes and at least forces them to utilize the Ki Strike that almost all weapons masters I've met ignore entirely.

Something I tell people regularly: Saslae wins and loses fights either looking like a god, or looking like a moron. There's no middle-ground because of the wide range of non-dice-rolled results when you tap that Whirlwind button.

Having some mechanical control, and a resource (it's usable a limited number of times per day like smite, and could have a 10-second cooldown - or 6 seconds if WW successfully causes flurry loss, making it a guarenteed single target damage loss) to avoid this 'bug' would be great: Hense Ki-Strike rescripted as Smite

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The intention of these changes:
+ Reduce WM maximum top-end damage. ("I just got deleted by a weapon master while typing" - The WM "Big Win".)
+ Remove 'bugged' WM bottom-end damage. ("I am bugged, and got no attacks for a full round after using Whirlwind, what the hell?" - The WM "Big Lose" brought about by using Whirlwind against characters who have already rolled initiative.)
+ Damage the effectiveness of Whirlwind, preventing "Neutral-Stick Whirlwind" Initiative-Bugging (ab)used by weapons masters everywhere. ("So a STRanger/WM can't get 6 attacks on you before you get a single one." - The STRanger/WM "Bigger Win")
+ Make Ki-Strike a cleaner and more effective alternative to WW for single target damage. (Ki-Strike has limited uses per day and is currently ignored by Weapon masters to save hotbar space, creating consistent 3 attack flurries for an opener, but NOT allowing it to alter initiative order for the above "big win" or "big lose" in the initiative and forcing them to choose between multiple buttons.)
+ Link the two together so they can't be used together in the same 10-second window. ("Ki-Strike now has a cooldown between uses." - could be moved to 6 on WW if WW flurry-loss is successful.)
+ Link these attacks to Smite, so that they cannot be used to create an insane burst in some weird class combined with a Divine Dip. ("Ki-Strike, Smite, Ki-Strike, Smite, Ki-Strike, Smite, Ki-Strike!" - would be 7 attacks per round with a single 1-handed weapon without this consideration.)
+ Creating consistency of behavior makes it so that Weapon Master is easier to balance and alter in the future. (It has, aside from brief flirting with bonus feats - that have been reverted - remained unchanged for the 5 years I've been on Arelith in favor of altering the Fighter Class itself and this bug has remained a weird pillar of balance around which the rest of Arelith measures it's own class effectiveness: "That guy deleted me in one round!" - because of a bug Arelith balance has been orbiting around for what might be 5 years before I came to Arelith ... the inability to alter, or nerf this may be the core of Arelith's power creep as well, trying to keep up with a WW bug.)

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Unrelated Side Note:
Linking Disarm and Knockdown to this "instant strike" system may, also work in the future to make them more responsive than the existing action-que system that often loses moves if you don't spam it - though when this was suggested I had not considered the balance implications of that against combined 'Epic Dodge and Concealment' builds as only having it once per round and being unable to touch these guys might be a -terrible- idea since they're basically impossible to defeat unless you're spamming every attack and get lucky on a 20 that then knocks them down -- though maybe making them touch attacks that cause no damage might work if it is on an instant-strike cooldown? Unknown. The amount of damage dexers take when knocked down is concerning though so that level of predictability is probably bad - even if you're immune to KD for 30 seconds.

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Unrelated Side Note: Unrelated to the others, but something I've noticed in the meta..
Dexers generally don't take Improved Whirlwind Attack: Could we reduce the dex requirement so it is useful and achievable in some builds, even if hard strength users still won't be able to make it? The way it is designed ... if you aren't going for weapons master, it isn't useful. And if you are going for dex ... you're often already feat-strapped. Weapons Masters spending another feat? Might be useful to spread their damage out a bit if its single-target damage is nerfed as per above and dilute their feat pool to get some of that damage back (though spread out over a wider area rather than single-target - or linking it to dual wield/Existing STRangers?

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:14 am**

Is there a TL;DR of the proposed change(s)?

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:32 am**

It doesnt screw up your initiative.

If you are out of combat and you do this you will always ww+flurry when you press w and then ww between enemies. The part where it picks a random target is correct, but there's a clear way to avoid losing initiative, you either do this when you havent attacked or did any action for 6 seconds, or you ww as late as possible in *your* round sequence if you're already swinging hits in that round. Personally I'm fine with weapon master being a bit more mechanic-savvy class. It's a Weapon-Master after all. I think learning to play a wild-wizard or any caster for the matter is just as hard or harder.

Also, I'm pretty sure ww being insta-action is very much in vanilla nwn since 1.69. Arelith just made Improved-whirlwind function the same, as it doesnt in base nwn.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:43 am**

This seems heavy on the side of suggestions instead of feedback. It may be better to focus more on the experience of the classes involved and less on the way to improve your particular character's strength.

I agree that having whirlwind go back to the original target would be a great QoL change.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:18 am**

Personally I'd prefer it more if Smite worked more like Whirlwind (respecting APR progression and etc.) rather than the inverse. It was kind of disappointing to find out it didn't work the same way. It feels sort of weird & buggy to me almost.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:00 am**

Maybe I missed something when playing a weapon master, but i just counted to six in my head during combat and hit ww, and it was amazing. Yes, the switching targets was annoying, but it often felt like a free attack every other round if timed right. In fact, that's what I thought it did ... Your post confused me.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:39 pm**

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:00 am Maybe I missed something when playing a weapon master, but i just counted to six in my head during combat and hit ww, and it was amazing. Yes, the switching targets was annoying, but it often felt like a free attack every other round if timed right. In fact, that's what I thought it did ... Your post confused me.

yeah same here

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:49 pm**

Jack Oat wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:14 am Is there a TL;DR of the proposed change(s)?

Are asking to give whirlwind free action the same way smite works so you can't abuse it as an expert with holding W (and possibly stack it with smite with your auto lock flurry) and so newbs arnt accidentally canceling all their attacks.

Just want is streamlined to be less janky the way smite handles it.

Took me 5 minutes to read and it had a lot of good points

Posted: **Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:04 am**

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:32 am It doesnt screw up your initiative.

If you are out of combat and you do this you will always ww+flurry when you press w and then ww between enemies. The part where it picks a random target is correct, but there's a clear way to avoid losing initiative, you either do this when you havent attacked or did any action for 6 seconds, or you ww as late as possible in *your* round sequence if you're already swinging hits in that round. Personally I'm fine with weapon master being a bit more mechanic-savvy class. It's a Weapon-Master after all. I think learning to play a wild-wizard or any caster for the matter is just as hard or harder.

Also, I'm pretty sure ww being insta-action is very much in vanilla nwn since 1.69. Arelith just made Improved-whirlwind function the same, as it doesnt in base nwn.

https://gyazo.com/ade432e2b1d857ba992f0155e7a723c2 <--- Recorded seconds ago in a single-player module. Rage, then Whirlwind qued in Action Que with a default, vanilla premade weapon master character. You are misinformed.

Explanation: Que-Rage. Que-WW. Takes 6 Seconds after the rage. Not a free action. Explore for yourself in the campaign - it's true to this day.

I can also record the Arelith mechanics I discussed above if you would like me to do so.

DM Monkey wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:43 am This seems heavy on the side of suggestions instead of feedback. It may be better to focus more on the experience of the classes involved and less on the way to improve your particular character's strength.

I agree that having whirlwind go back to the original target would be a great QoL change.

Perhaps, but the suggestion thread was never opened during my previous, or current tenure on Arelith if you look at it's closure dates (closed as soon as they locked out Kensai, and maintained through Mel'noz and Xyvil'kor) - and simply telling Whirlwind to reacquire the original target from its auto-acquire will cause the character Whirlwinding to /lose/ their flurry (as per above) as happens when you change targets.

Hence the proposition to prevent existing functionality loss. The problem is that Whirlwind itself is hardcoded, and tells the player to acquire the nearest target to their position - and altering that target after that automated call - causes the above-mentioned 'Big Loss' bug.

Doubtless, Arelith devs are better at me than scripting - but I've fiddled with this script myself to some extent on single-player modules - and this bug is duplicatable outside of Arelith even without the free action and seems linked to the initiative and flurry system; which is why I drew attention to Ki-Strike ... an ability weapons masters already have, but almost completely ignore.

Dr. B wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:43 am Yeah I didn't read all that, sorry.

Then why bother trolling? o . O Some ideas are complicated and require in-depth explanations under the hood as to what is happening.

Posted: **Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:24 pm**

I don't see what's so complicated about the whirlwind attack ( which is AoE and affects everyone in the area unlike the divine smite ). You press the button and your character will automatically attack the target closest to it, so if your first attack is a double flurry, it becomes a triple. If you decide to do something else instead ( like drink a bottle of water ) you still get the free AoE attack off but not the flurry to follow it up.

If someone is getting "deleted in one round", that's something on their end. If you're playing a 450 hp 0 DI, 0 AC and 0 concealment flapping their wings in front of a WM don't be surprised if the next thing you see is the Fugue Realm. Also, can we stop pretending that the WM is the only class who can dish a massive amount of damage.

Though if the devs want to make Ki Strike meaningful then I don't mind, but please keep the WW attack as it is. It's the only thing making the class engaging to play.

Posted: **Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:05 pm**

The whirlwind attack could be made a longer CD martial equivalent of spell-like ability (ex). A skill that does some calculated dmg (scale with the number of targets perhaps) on enemies around the /caster/ in Xft. radius spread and having some additional effect, like 0.5-sec root or something.

Instead of being an additional attack, be more strategic in both engagement and disengagement.

Posted: **Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:58 pm**

Tarkus the dog wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:24 pm please keep the WW attack as it is. It's the only thing making the class engaging to play.

Posted: **Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:35 pm**

Maybe EE changed it but the feat was definitely insta-action on nwn 1.69 for like 10 years or so. Not gonna die on this hill tho.

I also never had a problem like the one you're describing with the initiative, OP. If my character is already inside their round sequence and I click ww, then I'll be standing and doing nothing for the rest of the round afterwards *because I made a mistake* to use it in a bad timing. But when used properly even in pvp it gives the extra attack on the first flurry to potentially just delete people, which is really the main selling point of this feat in modern times and very arelithian mob being relatively beefy as you said. High highs, low lows. And I dont think it's a problem, is all.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:05 pm**

I have never played a WM so bear with me . . .

The key to using WW in pvp is to not select your target but stand next to them an WW before attack to maximize dmg?

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:38 pm**

Edens_Fall wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:05 pm I have never played a WM so bear with me . . .

The key to using WW in pvp is to not select your target but stand next to them an WW before attack to maximize dmg?

If you are out of action (not necessarily out of combat but out of action) and you want to start your round sequence by attacking someone. Instead of clicking them, you just press W to them, and when you are in melee range you click ww, and it will perform the ww against everyone in range, and pick one of those in range at random and perform your first flurry of the round. When you are charging someone 1v1 and you do this, you are effectively starting the round with 3 attacks on your first flurry, 2 of them in full bab.

For example, if you are a ranger wm dual wielding hasted, you already have 3 attacks on the first flurry and ww would make it 4. Which means you stand near someone and basically delete them.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:26 pm**

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:38 pm
Edens_Fall wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:05 pm I have never played a WM so bear with me . . .

The key to using WW in pvp is to not select your target but stand next to them an WW before attack to maximize dmg?
If you are out of action (not necessarily out of combat but out of action) and you want to start your round sequence by attacking someone. Instead of clicking them, you just press W to them, and when you are in melee range you click ww, and it will perform the ww against everyone in range, and pick one of those in range at random and perform your first flurry of the round. When you are charging someone 1v1 and you do this, you are effectively starting the round with 3 attacks on your first flurry, 2 of them in full bab.

For example, if you are a ranger wm dual wielding hasted, you already have 3 attacks on the first flurry and ww would make it 4. Which means you stand near someone and basically delete them.

For those skilled with it, the proposed does seem less fun in not deleting people, but as a streamlined experience I completely agree. Most people come to play some virtual representation of DnD (homebrew or not) and balance is important, but balancing around knowing ins and outs and why you hold W key in PvP/pve ( be it whirlwind or archery) imo is "good as is" but not "the best"
*edit*

Also i definitely remember non instant action WW before arelith changes Where you couldnt stack apr with whirwind but its possible i just sucked and didnt know any better. But i remember being extremely clunky before arelith changed it.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:21 pm**

well, it's generally better to run with WASD in pvp regardless of WW.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:29 pm**

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:38 pm
Edens_Fall wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:05 pm I have never played a WM so bear with me . . .

The key to using WW in pvp is to not select your target but stand next to them an WW before attack to maximize dmg?
If you are out of action (not necessarily out of combat but out of action) and you want to start your round sequence by attacking someone. Instead of clicking them, you just press W to them, and when you are in melee range you click ww, and it will perform the ww against everyone in range, and pick one of those in range at random and perform your first flurry of the round. When you are charging someone 1v1 and you do this, you are effectively starting the round with 3 attacks on your first flurry, 2 of them in full bab.

For example, if you are a ranger wm dual wielding hasted, you already have 3 attacks on the first flurry and ww would make it 4. Which means you stand near someone and basically delete them.

I'll be. Years in Arelith and one still learns new META.

This explains so many times I am alive one moment and not the next.

Posted: **Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:16 pm**

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:21 pm well, it's generally better to run with WASD in pvp regardless of WW.

Yeah but like probably 80% + of the player base doesn't know W + action economies. I didint till recently and this for almost decades.

I dont think some mechanics being WASD nwn jankry is grounds for more of it Unless we explain this in some guide when we balance around it.

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:09 am**

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:16 pm Yeah but like probably 80% + of the player base doesn't know W + action economies. I didint till recently and this for almost decades.

I dont think some mechanics being WASD nwn jankry is grounds for more of it Unless we explain this in some guide when we balance around it.

WASD-running not being flat-footed action is, I'm pretty sure, a new thing from EE. I dont think you could just run action-less without being flat-footed before EE, but I might be wrong on this one. I dont remember anymore.

Yes, there's Player-skill in this game, and mechanical knowledge to know, or lack.

We *have* been balancing around it. We even buffed WM for a second and realized "nope. that was not a good change, lets revert". In the case of said infamous ranger/wm two-bladed horc, it has some exploitable weaknesses like atrocious saves and ac. If you let it just run at you and press ww without doing anything to stop it, well, at least hover your Pray button cause you'll need it.

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:13 pm**

Cool, but what is wrong with the ww turned into smite style script proposal other than "its good as is". "Not a priority" is all acceptable but if ot has merit, i like recognition to good thought.

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:36 pm**

I like the aspects of NWN that reward skill. I like that you can learn little secrets of combat in and outside of the game.

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:49 pm**

Meanwhile as an Invisible Blade using Crippling Throw and Arcane Bleed…

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:04 pm**

AstralUniverse wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:35 pm Maybe EE changed it but the feat was definitely insta-action on nwn 1.69 for like 10 years or so. Not gonna die on this hill tho.

I also never had a problem like the one you're describing with the initiative, OP. If my character is already inside their round sequence and I click ww, then I'll be standing and doing nothing for the rest of the round afterwards *because I made a mistake* to use it in a bad timing. But when used properly even in pvp it gives the extra attack on the first flurry to potentially just delete people, which is really the main selling point of this feat in modern times and very arelithian mob being relatively beefy as you said. High highs, low lows. And I dont think it's a problem, is all.

No, I replayed through the entire NWN's campaign after spellsword path was briefly removed from character selection, just before the release of EE. I assure you, this is not the case though it is a relatively common server modification - you are entirely mistaken about 1.69 Whirlwind, as I played on it, for years, before the official NWN's servers went down, and I ran PvP servers.

WW was not a viable PvP tool until Arelith (potentially Amia's?) modification to it, which modified it from a full-round action, to a free action.

Edens_Fall wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:05 pm I have never played a WM so bear with me . . .

The key to using WW in pvp is to not select your target but stand next to them an WW before attack to maximize dmg?

This is exactly what they are referring to when they claim Weapon Master is "Skill Based", yes.

"Skip your initiative action by disengaging, and come stand next to your target, and WW to get 3 - 4 attacks (STRanger/1-weapon WM).. sometimes 5 or 6 attacks on them if you win initiative." The Weapon Master 'Big Win'.

You aren't actually getting MORE attacks than if you just kept attacking normally, because the round-system caps it ... but you are getting those same attacks packed into a 2 - 4 second window rather than 6 and you can do it in combination with a True Strike potion and a bit of movement.

Effective Use after a Time-Stop:
I like drinking an invisibility potion, drinking a true-strike and running up to someone who just got dispelled during a mage's time-stop ... and then hitting Whirlwind while they are desperately trying to chug potions since their AC is often lowered due to loss of Zoo-buffs, it'll often just outright delete dexers off the map -- which is a fair vulnerability when they often had 72-75 AC normally at full buff.. though div-dip nerfs changed them.

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:27 pm**

Curve wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:36 pm I like the aspects of NWN that reward skill. I like that you can learn little secrets of combat in and outside of the game.

I'm kind of on fence about it but, to me if I were to judge things, its worse than module/area FOIG stuff (which people have mixed opinions on). I am all for the game having a competitive element for those that enjoy it, but I feel the goal of a RP PW should be emulating
a rpg more than a video game. In table top, not that we have to be table top, you don't have to find the invisible text or word of mouth house rules for hidden features/mechanics or your class.

To be honest, it impacts me not overly much, but it creates harder to cross knowledge gap when discussing balance decisions between know and the not knows. Which to me seems against the spirit transparency. Perhaps the knowledge gap is why we had the OP monks that one summer, so I am all for things against hidden knowledge in regards to base mechanics and class balance.

Arelith

Smite vs. Whirlwind: Weapons Master Cleanup.

Smite vs. Whirlwind: Weapons Master Cleanup.

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