Arelith

It seems that scrying creates a clone of the caster and if someone chooses to attack that clone it leads to all NPCs turning hostile.

I'm playing a drow in Andunor and a member of my house attacked the clone created by someone else. This lead to the clone attacking her. I in turn attacked the clone to defend her, but the clone is immortal. It takes damage, but will never actually die, no matter how much damage you deal to it.

We tried to lure it away and tried to lasso it, hoping we could maybe put it in a dungeon cell or something. This turned every NPC in Andunor hostile against me, which led to me dying. The hostility of the NPCs also persists through death, which prevents me from doing anything with the character now. (I immediately logged out after respawning and I hope he didn't die again)

Apart from hoping that this bug will be fixed, I was wondering if the death might be "refunded" as I have a mark of destiny and the death turned an otherwise quite funny bug into a frustrating experience.

There's no bug here - people shouldn't be attacking non-hostile NPCs in the first place. You reap what you sow!

DM Monkey wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:04 am There's no bug here - people shouldn't be attacking non-hostile NPCs in the first place. You reap what you sow!

So the clones created by scrying are supposed to be immortal entities, chasing you to the ends of Arelith like a vengeful demi-god and EVERYONE on Arelith, apart from PCs are loyal to them? Yea, sure, I see no reason how that contradicts the setting/lore or could be abused.
Edit: I have also explained that I have not attacked a non-hostile NPC. Again, in case you missed it, the clone was attacking a member of my house, which is a hostile action.

I was probably a bit hasty in my response. Let me break it down a little more.

When someone uses -scry, their PC gets taken to the place they're scrying on. This makes the replacement NPC that stands there in their place invulnerable. The intention is (I believe) because it's seen as unfair to attack someone whilst they're in this state. That NPC isn't loyal to anyone, it's just an NPC.

We have a long standing rule that NPCs should not be attacked without DM oversight/permission. I've commented as I did because this applies here. If people follow this rule, they won't run into the issue you've outlined above.

KaerghenTT wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:44 am So the clones created by scrying are supposed to be immortal entities, chasing you to the ends of Arelith like a vengeful demi-god and EVERYONE on Arelith, apart from PCs are loyal to them?

They are tagged to one of the NPC factions, so when attacked, all members of that faction go hostile to the PC that attacked them until either the faction resets or the server resets. If a DM is online, you can ask in the DM channel for help if something like this happens.

I'm sorry if this sounds salty, but all I'm getting from this is still the same. I should not have reacted IC and simply let it happen.

I understand that scrying technically "creates" an NPC. Having them flagged as the same faction on top of being immortal is what forces you to stop behaving IC (because the NPCs don't react in a believable way as well).

So it's fine that diviniation focus has basically the strongest summons in the most unbelievable way possible. I'll keep it in mind.
#itsnotabugitsafeature

KaerghenTT wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:49 am I'm playing a drow in Andunor and a member of my house attacked the clone created by someone else. This lead to the clone attacking her. I in turn attacked the clone to defend her,...

I'm pretty sure this is the point DM Monkey is referring to: neither character should have been attacking the NPC.

The diviner doesn't have any sort of control over this NPC whatsoever. So yeah, you do seem pretty salty for something that was a fairly cheesy approach to begin with, if I may be so blunt.

And just as a small addendum: A diviner is always dispelled when they use this ability, so they have absolutely no advantage by a replacement NPC being created.

Dalek Caan wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:03 am
I'm pretty sure this is the point DM Monkey is referring to: neither character should have been attacking the NPC.

Yes, that's precisely what I said I got from the message. I simply added that the mechanics of it makes the whole scene act OOC.
When you enter your house and an ally is being attack by someone, you'd usually try to protect that ally. But in this case the "right" approach would've been to write "Oh, I know you're being attacked, but that dude there is technically an NPC even though he carries the name of someone I know to be a player." That's quite the OOC reasoning.

Dalek Caan wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:03 am
The diviner doesn't have any sort of control over this NPC whatsoever. So yeah, you do seem pretty salty for something that was a fairly cheesy approach to begin with, if I may be so blunt.

He has the control over where that NPC is located and that's enough.
You can just create a surface character go to Andunor, start scrying and let the scene unfold. Or vice versa.
Let the city kill its own citizens for trying to protect it. That's certainly going to be interesting to believably explain IG.

Dalek Caan wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:03 am
And just as a small addendum: A diviner is always dispelled when they use this ability, so they have absolutely no advantage by a replacement NPC being created.

Except for what I explained above. Whether he is dispelled or not has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It kind of doesnt make any sense to me, why shouldnt I attack someone who is from IC perspective of my character, standing there, with no reactions, apparently with his mind somewhere else, when I need to attack that person (if I have reasons, there was RP, or I'm assassin etc, so consider the requirements to PvP fulfilled).

I'd reaaaaaaally suggest to change the scry that if the NPC that spawns instead of a player get's damaged, cancel the players scry and return him back. Solves basically everything.

Also it solves the problem that this invulnerable NPC can kind of tank...anything. In a bad situation and need to buy some time? Scry. In a PvP and need your friends to save you before enemies kill you? Scry.

Sounds like quite a problematic and highly exploitable thing to me, can't think of any sane reason to make it immortal.

They're not supposed to be visible, in the same way stealthed PCs are not, yet the area transition bug sometimes reveals them. Your duty here is to be the bigger person and ignore the bug.

Furthermore, you admit that your house member attacked the scrier, which is not supposed to happen without RP, and response. This is technically impossible in this state, so no matter how you look at it, there are some rule breaks involved here.

This is the same vibe I get when people attack Speedys or Goblins due to their unwanted intrusions. Its illegal. Just because it happens all the time does not mean its acceptable. Expect DMs to look dimly on this.

Hey guys, don't break the rules, you won't have a problem. Read my previous response for the reasons why. If you think someone is exploiting anything on Arelith, report it in a PM to 'Active DMs'.

mourisson1 wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:56 am I'd reaaaaaaally suggest to change the scry that if the NPC that spawns instead of a player get's damaged, cancel the players scry and return him back. Solves basically everything.

Also it solves the problem that this invulnerable NPC can kind of tank...anything. In a bad situation and need to buy some time? Scry. In a PvP and need your friends to save you before enemies kill you? Scry.

Sounds like quite a problematic and highly exploitable thing to me, can't think of any sane reason to make it immortal

I meant to address this too. The problem here is that often scriers scry someone in combat. Because of the necessary implementation, their viewer/clone/whatever you want to call it sometimes gets caught in the action, be it an area effect or simply a cleave processing on them.

This really can't be effectively abused in the way you say because scrying needs to be done out of combat and it strips all buffs, so you can't use it to get yourself out of hot water.

It also can't be reliably used to get a friend out of hot water, because attacks do not process reliably on the usually invisible scrier/viewer/clone. This also implies a rule break on the scrier side and some sort of tell/discord metagaming. If this were ever used, report it.

My last point is, scrier/viewer/clone implementation must remain immortal, or we've just added another hard counter to scrying...combat. No one wants this.

RedGiant wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:39 pm Furthermore, you admit that your house member attacked the scrier, which is not supposed to happen without RP, and response. This is technically impossible in this state, so no matter how you look at it, there are some rule breaks involved here.

It's not technically impossible and there are multiple examples above, including the case I've given at the very beginning. I have no idea how you come to that conclusion, unless you only skipped through the text.

DM Monkey wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:44 pm Hey guys, don't break the rules, you won't have a problem. Read my previous response for the reasons why. If you think someone is exploiting anything on Arelith, report it in a PM to 'Active DMs'.

When the rules contradict themselves to the point where you just always loose in some way.
"Don't metagame" and "don't attack NPCs" are in DIRECT conflict here.

This is the logic with which you get sent to prison, because you defended someone from a cop who keeps beating someone who's already on the ground and isn't moving anymore. NPC=police in this case.
jUsT dOnT bReAk tHe rUlEs

RedGiant wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:57 pm I meant to address this too. The problem here is that often scriers scry someone in combat. Because of the necessary implementation, their viewer/clone/whatever you want to call it sometimes gets caught in the action, be it an area effect or simply a cleave processing on them.

Wait. I've maybe misunderstood the problem. I thought we are talking about the NPC that is at the ORIGIN of the scryer, because ACTUAL SCRYER is the one that is sent to the scryed location, no? That is why I thought you can use it to buy some time, because you could replace yourself with that NPC, just by scrying someone.

mourisson1 wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:30 pm

RedGiant wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:57 pm I meant to address this too. The problem here is that often scriers scry someone in combat. Because of the necessary implementation, their viewer/clone/whatever you want to call it sometimes gets caught in the action, be it an area effect or simply a cleave processing on them.

Wait. I've maybe misunderstood the problem. I thought we are talking about the NPC that is at the ORIGIN of the scryer, because ACTUAL SCRYER is the one that is sent to the scryed location, no? That is why I thought you can use it to buy some time, because you could replace yourself with that NPC, just by scrying someone.

No, you understood it just fine. That part of his message is just not really related to the problem/"feature".

KaerghenTT wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:49 am It seems that scrying creates a clone of the caster and if someone chooses to attack that clone it leads to all NPCs turning hostile.

I'm playing a drow in Andunor and a member of my house attacked the clone created by someone else. This lead to the clone attacking her. I in turn attacked the clone to defend her, but the clone is immortal. It takes damage, but will never actually die, no matter how much damage you deal to it.

We tried to lure it away and tried to lasso it, hoping we could maybe put it in a dungeon cell or something. This turned every NPC in Andunor hostile against me, which led to me dying. The hostility of the NPCs also persists through death, which prevents me from doing anything with the character now. (I immediately logged out after respawning and I hope he didn't die again)

Apart from hoping that this bug will be fixed, I was wondering if the death might be "refunded" as I have a mark of destiny and the death turned an otherwise quite funny bug into a frustrating experience.

I'm trying to understand your question but it doesn't seems clear to me, so i'll state these 2 scenario -

1) A member of your house attacked the clone created by someone esle, because he/she see the clone summoned through scrying ( probably an epic diviner ) Technically, you shouldn't see the clone unless quoted from wiki "Additionally, epic diviners can recognize projected illusions when examining, if their caster level is above that of the illusionist." Most of the time, it's almost always a level 30 epic diviner, doing the scrying. But your case, your friend seems to be higher in level. ( Unless i've mistaken the wiki content meaning )

2) The person uses scry, right in front of your house, in a confrontation in a midst to escape. And hence, everyone will 'see' the clone. It's cheesy to use scry when it's illogical to scry something, you can see, right in front of you.

It's not just Clone that will cause NPC to aggro you. Even if you summon a Djinn from a bottle and you hit it, the NPC will also aggro you. So, it's pretty universal thing. I'm also having mixed feelin for your case because it seems to be a rule-break but it belongs largely in a grey area since what you say, also makes sense.

Yet, the fact that the clone of the diviner belongs to the NPC faction, is likely unknown to most. I'm not sure on how to see your case. Doesn't seems to be a genuine fault but, well... i've no idea how to describe as well.

Biolab00 wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:43 pm
I'm trying to understand your question but it doesn't seems clear to me, so i'll state these 2 scenario -

1) A member of your house attacked the clone created by someone esle, because he/she see the clone summoned through scrying ( probably an epic diviner ) Technically, you shouldn't see the clone unless quoted from wiki "Additionally, epic diviners can recognize projected illusions when examining, if their caster level is above that of the illusionist." Most of the time, it's almost always a level 30 epic diviner, doing the scrying. But your case, your friend seems to be higher in level. ( Unless i've mistaken the wiki content meaning )

2) The person uses scry, right in front of your house, in a confrontation in a midst to escape. And hence, everyone will 'see' the clone. It's cheesy to use scry when it's illogical to scry something, you can see, right in front of you.

It's not just Clone that will cause NPC to aggro you. Even if you summon a Djinn from a bottle and you hit it, the NPC will also aggro you. So, it's pretty universal thing. I'm also having mixed feelin for your case because it seems to be a rule-break but it belongs largely in a grey area since what you say, also makes sense.

Yet, the fact that the clone of the diviner belongs to the NPC faction, is likely unknown to most. I'm not sure on how to see your case. Doesn't seems to be a genuine fault but, well... i've no idea how to describe as well.

Neither case represents it right. Maybe I need to clarify a few things cause it looks to me like most people don't get what I even mean.
Clone = the npc that is placed at your location when you use -scry. This NPC is not invisible.
The actual player-character is the one that is invisible while scrying.

It was not outside the house, it was inside.
The "fight" was already going when I joined. (as far as I was told later the clone was in a place it was NOT supposed to be in)
I saw she was being attacked and damaged, while she ran from it.
So I decided to try and protect her AKA attack the perceived aggressor.
The clone wouldn't die, no matter how much damage it received AKA it's immortal.
The clone would sometimes cease to attack after a zone change and sometimes would start attacking again after a zone change.
At one point it followed me outside the house and into the city.
Because I couldn't identify when the clone turns aggro, I thought it a bad idea to just leave it in a public place and tried to lasso it to put in a dungeon until a DM could handle it.
I tried to lasso it.
This turned the whole town hostile.
I died.
I waited 5 minutes and respawned.
Whole town still wants to kill me.
I log out to avoid dying again to the same sh*** (which is technically a rule-break as well?)
Fin

Biolab00 wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:43 pm I'm also having mixed feelin for your case because it seems to be a rule-break but it belongs largely in a grey area since what you say, also makes sense.

My point, after I was told by DM Monkey that the immortality and faction is not a bug, is that this puts you in an impossible situation where you have NO CHOICE but to break some rule. Stay in character and be punished for it, like I was.. or metagame (Nah, man, I won't intervene, cause that's technically an NPC, yo), which is against the rules and completey OOC.
...and that this can easily be used to force a whole town into the same situation, where staying in character is punished the most.

Guys, please don't attack NPCs.