Arelith

Gonna drop the tl;dr at the front: Trap option, please consider one of two fixes.
1. Make it purely aesthetic (druids get a choice of aesthetic summon/companion skins at creation and then a couple times as they level)
or
2. Make it a real thing that competes with 'druid standard' (30 edr 3) and other modern classes, but this is a lot of work.

There's a lot of ink that could be spilled (keys pressed?) about how totem shape is a trap option that almost could've competed back when it was a thing, but that changes both to totem itself, the druid chassis, and monk interaction have effectively rendered it a joke, a choice to nerf oneself for the sake of skins-

And then there's another post about the ease of which everyone else (warlocks, blaggards, clerics, mages) get a swathe of very cool planar summons that all have a lot of love and effort put into them but only cost whatever people are charging for fey/celestial/etc books these days, not 12 stat points, etc etc-

But we all know this stuff. Totem druid is an essentially moth-balled artifact of a different design and balance paradigm, and as it exists serves only as a trap option that nonetheless gatekeeps druids from having the depth of aesthetic choices everyone else gets.

imo everything has a price, if you want to rp has a pack of:dogs,rats,spiders,bears.. well, the price is decent enough. especially considering how easily someone could be wacky with that rp option, if it was more forgiving, has is the only people taking totem are those that actually want to rp the shape they gain.

You understand that's a non-argument, right? It can be made for literally any of the summon options that exist, and which don't have a requirement of losing 4 str, con, and dex. It's fully possible for people to walk around with wacky angel pets, funny little unseelie fey, etc, which I feel like is more ridiculous on the whole than 'druid who summons wolves.'

Totem Druid is hilariously strong and fun to play.

It’s one of my favorite classes and IMO people that think it is weak are just sort of doing it wrong.

You can easily solo most of the server minus a few specific dungeons and can be very successful in PvP, usually by using dragon shape.

A well built totem will have basically the highest AC you can get on Arelith.

The only thing I would suggest is allowing totem shape attacks to have +3 enchantment bonus so you can can damage those enemies who require a magical weapon to hit.

It is a dream of mine that totem druid is scrapped and instead add more animal companions and shapeshift forms. We have jaguars, lions, penguins, turtles, all sorts of beasties at our fingertips to make a little more flavorful. Let's make druids come alive with options.

+3 weapons for totem shape would be reasonable. Probably get a lot of people playing totem druid then so im conflicted as i kind of like it being fairly uncommon

Arienette wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:21 pm Totem Druid is hilariously strong and fun to play.

It’s one of my favorite classes and IMO people that think it is weak are just sort of doing it wrong.

You can easily solo most of the server minus a few specific dungeons and can be very successful in PvP, usually by using dragon shape.

A well built totem will have basically the highest AC you can get on Arelith.

The only thing I would suggest is allowing totem shape attacks to have +3 enchantment bonus so you can can damage those enemies who require a magical weapon to hit.

Could you explain in which ways a totem druid is stronger than a regular druid? Because if I had to guess, the reason you're having such a successful time in pve/pvp is due to the great base class that is druid, rather than being a totem druid. Am I wrong?

I am not saying it is stronger. If it was objectively stronger at face value, it would be a direct upgrade to regular druids and regular druids would be pointless. Its a give and take kind of thing. A totem druid is played totally differently from a regular druid. That said, I personally think totem is a stronger choice for summon-buff-melee style gameplay than a regular druid.

1. A regular druid is basically forced into pure 30. You dont get the Mono forms until lvl 28. This means no dip.

2. Presumably, if you are playing a Totem it is because you want to shift into a wolf (or whatever). Which means you should not and do not care about mono form. Totem form peaks at lvl 26, meaning you can dip 3 or 4 class levels elsewhere.

3. I play totem with 18 INT and a monk dip. This nets discipline, tumble, hide, MS, spot, listen. Spot and listen are not Druid class skills; with a dip and high WIS score, you can become a world-class spotter. With the extremely high DEX scores you can get in totem form or green dragon form, plus a Ring of Hiding and camoflauge and one with the land you can become a world-class sneak. Both the ability to detect stealth and to stealth effectively are "powerful" IMO.

4. Tumble nets you higher AC.

5. Discipline nets you discipline. Combined with the very high STR in totem and Dragon forms and the possible addition of ESF Discipline, you become virtually un-KD-able.

6. Totem form suffers from low AB and low APR. A monk dip allows you to hit mid-40s AB with 5 APR, or 40 AB with 6 APR. This can be pushed higher with certain feat selections.

7. With 5 pets and personal haste, your "team" can push out 20-23 APR. Even with low AB and mediocre damage, this can quickly overwhelm many opponents even if you are fishing for high attack roll numbers.

8. Various dips in general can net you cool abilities. Monk gets you extra will saves, 10 percent move speed buff, delfect arrows, cleave, weapon focus unarmed (which applies in totem form), etc. If you choose to take a 4th monk level that nets you evasion. Other people will choose Bard which nets many cool things in addition to UMD (with all the neat tools that entails) plus the Mass Haste bard instrument. The only thing better than a pack of 6 wolves dishing 23 APR is a pack of 6 wolves dishing 28 APR with speed and higher AC.

9. A properly built totem druid hits AC in the 70s without expertise or haste. 70 AC and 900 HP; This frees up AT LEAST improved Expertise and probably even expertise which are feats most lvl 30 druids will "need".

I could probably go on, but I think I have made my point.

A totem IS NOT necessarily "stronger" than a regular druid. But it is extremely strong and fun to play. The flexibility it gives you to dip opens up all sorts of doors that are not possible with a regular druid (assuming regular druid wants Mono, and you do). Some of these translate to direct combat power, some of them also translate to "fun".

It would be good to revamp them with flavored paths like warlocks, paladins and clerics. The different animal paths would bring small stat adjustments, their own appropriate spells, maybe some skill bonuses or other class synergy so playing a rat would actually make you a mini-rogue and a bear a barbearian. Also, a plant totem to celebrate the upcoming tree form.

I like Orks idea minus scrapping totem, which I think should always be an option.

My biggest problem is that every change to druid has effectively cut their build diversity. While you can do different things, only one really makes sense, and we all know what that is. Everything else is a grossly suboptimal RP choice.

I think the Warlock class is a great example of giving a class a buffet of choices. Agreed that this is alot of work, though, and many more classes could be in the chute if this is deemed a worthy paradigm.

Arienette wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:44 pmA fantastic post

Totems can also make use of Parry AC (without monk levels, iirc)

Arienette wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:44 pm -snip-

Thank you for the detailed reply. I still do not personally agree it's a worthwhile trade-off but I can see where you're coming off much clearer now.

Non-totem druids also have the same 5 friends you described, plus I imagine a normal druid has similar AC in air monolithic shape?

Regardless, I think I'd be substantially less critical of totem druid if the totem shape had any attack bonus whatsoever, for the purpose of damage penetration. If you can't even do what little damage totem druid does because most enemies in the latter half of the game have damage penetration, you're sort of forced into the backline caster role - except without planar conduit (but with substantially more survivability than my wizard, for sure).

And I have played a totem druid up to 16, sure, it's fun to have an army of rats and whatnot, but I couldn't help but feel like I had shot myself in the knee half of the time. I'd argue we should make changes to keep the fun parts, while making them less of a niche AC tank, and more in line with standard druids.

MRFTW wrote: Totems can also make use of Parry AC (without monk levels, iirc)

Arelith custom removed Parry from the skill list of Druid.

RedGiant wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:08 pm

MRFTW wrote: Totems can also make use of Parry AC (without monk levels, iirc)

Arelith custom removed Parry from the skill list of Druid.

You dip ranger for the armour and the skills.

RedGiant wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:08 pm

MRFTW wrote: Totems can also make use of Parry AC (without monk levels, iirc)

Arelith custom removed Parry from the skill list of Druid.

A totem Druid with 30 Druid levels is doing it wrong.

fading wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:50 am

Arienette wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:44 pm -snip-

Thank you for the detailed reply. I still do not personally agree it's a worthwhile trade-off but I can see where you're coming off much clearer now.

Non-totem druids also have the same 5 friends you described, plus I imagine a normal druid has similar AC in air monolithic shape?

Regardless, I think I'd be substantially less critical of totem druid if the totem shape had any attack bonus whatsoever, for the purpose of damage penetration. If you can't even do what little damage totem druid does because most enemies in the latter half of the game have damage penetration, you're sort of forced into the backline caster role - except without planar conduit (but with substantially more survivability than my wizard, for sure).

And I have played a totem druid up to 16, sure, it's fun to have an army of rats and whatnot, but I couldn't help but feel like I had shot myself in the knee half of the time. I'd argue we should make changes to keep the fun parts, while making them less of a niche AC tank, and more in line with standard druids.

Yes, I also agree that totem druids unarmed attacks should be scripted to be +3 magical weapon if this is possible.

As a totem druid, even in high level epic/endgame content, I have NEVER acted as a back line caster. I am always in either totem or dragon form.

Most epic content can be solo'd quickly and easily in totem form with the full wolfpack. The content that cannot, you ought to be in a party with at least one DPS build- in which case you -guard that guy and make him invincible with your unhittable AC.

I'm not saying that totem is objectively 1-to-1 more powerful than a regular druid (and it should not be). But totem is totally viable and it has its own fun things to play with that "regular" druids don't get (if they want Mono form, which of course they do).

I wholly disagree that totem druid is a trap option. It's arguably an upgrade over base druid, especially with spider totem granting paralysis immunity as that's somewhat close to a permanent unbreachable freedom of movement. Otherwise there's some good ability score bonuses and skills throughout the totem forms.

The hardest part of totem druid really is the -4 con when not polymorphed. It's the trade-off to the totem benefits, being more vulnerable as a caster. Were it not for the -4 con, I would call totem a direct upgrade over baseline druid.

Not that monolith shape is bad, I just can't really think of many times I'd ever want it over a dip. The strength of druid isn't necessarily in its shapes, they're bonuses that help. Druid is still a 1-9 caster that can achieve high DCs and powerful spellcasting. A mistake that people far too often make with druid is buffing, polymorphing, and then playing like a fighter.

I'd rather have discipline and stealth over monolith shape even on a non-totem, the upside then would be +4 con over totem when casting spells, which again is something druids do very well and should be utilized.

The strength of druids is the versatility to choose whether to engage in or not. Committing to one or the other is pointlessly wasting a large component of the class's kit.

I think totem druid is one of the strongest builds you can play. Like the above poster said it is not a self-buffing fighter. It is a caster with crazy tankiness when they need it and a psyco summon(s).