Arelith

Me and a bunch of others just went from leaving no tracks to everyone on the server being able to track us flawlessly with 0 skill point investment and 2 short swords.

With everyone leaving a trail that also makes players of the low population races at a huge disadvantage since there is likely only one or two on at any time even with 0 detail knowing which track belongs to the giant, fey, or imp your looking for will be trivial as they will never be able to mix their tracks and their "generic" tracks will revel their race which is all you need to know to track them.

As a Pixie player going from leaving no tracks in light armor as an advantage to everyone on the server can tack your every action flawlessly seems like a HUGE change to this major rewards race.

All you need to track a pixie is the 10 point soft since the track is unique there is no question as to who left it and as there are few active pixies on the server any track left anywhere narrows the poll down to one of very few players. This is a major change and opens anyone playing one of the lower server populations races at a sizable disadvantage with this new system.

I like a lot of the investigation aspects but I see everyone leaving tracks as very abusable and an immense nerf to stealth RP. Not leaving tracks was a necessity for spying. Now everyone will be hyperaware to watch transitions to see if tracks appear, read a true sight scroll, bust them.

I'm playing a stealth pixie and the new changes completely cripple my ability to effectively sneak and render any action that will leave any tracks as an almost unique fingerprint pointing right at me.

going from no tracks to everyone can track you always is a massive change and hiding details is irrelevant when your actual track is all anyone needs to know to narrow it down to one of a very few characters.

I'm just going to point to the announcement where it says Phase 1.

Also tracks still don't appear in places they wouldn't have before, so I'm not sure where this sudden phobia of tracks is coming from, they even merge stacks like before.
If everything leaves tracks... and you're following someone? Your tracks and theirs are merged. It's not as if a neon sign demands they stand at those tracks clicking it 50 times, and gods forbid you keep distance.

I play a spy and a spotbot (same character).

I haven't had enough time to play fully with the changes, but on the surface, it looks like a huge buff to tracking people down and a huge nerf to spying in general. I appreciate the concerns of the award races particularly hurt by this, but as someone whose character tracks people down that don't like to be found, this is a buff characters like mine really didn't need. Obviously only time will tell, but I suspect I'll see a downtick in business in finding untrackable and unscryable targets. My tracker leaves tracks (intentionally), so they have become more untrackable since several of their core feats have had bonuses to not be tracked added to them, which is not what I wanted, but hey, free stuff!

I strongly dislike linking spot and hide/ms to tracking in principle. There is already an arms race with those skills in particular that doesn't need to spill out into the rest of the mechanics, imo. Having to keep up Rogue's Cunning, One with the Land, Good Hope and Camouflage every transition is hard to justify, especially given that you will still be leaving basic information.

Are the skill checks subject to the 127 skill cap?

Is "everybody leaves tracks" a core design philosophy for future stages?

Many sneakers (my own alt included) have made mechanical sacrifices to not leave tracks, so going forward, I think it'd be good for character planning to know if not leaving tracks is a thing of the past.

EDIT: For clarity, I do think the old tracking system had problems so I am not anti-reworking it, more curious about the vision for the future.

This is not subject to the 127 cap and I'm going to be adjusting as I see it play out.
The bonuses let people go up as far as they let them.
A ranger/Assassin/lm with a wild race could reach a bonus of 50 for example.
70 hide + 50 bonus + details dc.

If you're seeing something of concern with the math and how it's pitted against one another I'd ask that be showed so I can adjust it.

Everyone will leave tracks, this is not changing.

Sincra wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:09 am I'm just going to point to the announcement where it says Phase 1.

Also tracks still don't appear in places they wouldn't have before, so I'm not sure where this sudden phobia of tracks is coming from, they even merge stacks like before.
If everything leaves tracks... and you're following someone? Your tracks and theirs are merged. It's not as if a neon sign demands they stand at those tracks clicking it 50 times, and gods forbid you keep distance.

What do you mean "sudden?" Phobia of leaving tracks is why a lot of rogues dip ranger instead of fighter. Common thoroughfares are one thing, there's always tracks, but anywhere else if PCs see tracks they know someone is around which means folks start going all detect mode and asking "who's there?" and popping true sight.

I dunno, I think this is a huge nerf and if that's intended then it is what it is (and I certainly won't by playing a spy again), but I thought I should at least bring it up since it's a massive game changer. I've played stealthers who leave tracks and stealthers who don't and it's a big difference... Tracks just seem to send up the red flag all the time even if your sneaking is harmless.

Sincra wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:15 am This is not subject to the 127 cap and I'm going to be adjusting as I see it play out.
The bonuses let people go up as far as they let them.
A ranger/Assassin/lm with a wild race could reach a bonus of 50 for example.
70 hide + 50 bonus + details dc.

If you're seeing something of concern with the math and how it's pitted against one another I'd ask that be showed so I can adjust it.

Everyone will leave tracks, this is not changing.

That's exactly the sort of info I was looking for, thanks Sincra. I'll ask around a few friends that run sneakers as to how ludicrous numbers are on their side, mine is a spotter at heart and a B tier sneaker so not a good metric for that side of the equation.

The issue with everyone leaving tracks is it shows someone's been in the area. It lets people without tracking be able to hunt people down who have passed through the area. I've personally done this before with a group. If no other transitions have tracks it makes it very obvious where to follow. The entire point of taking a sub-optimal ranger dip is that a stealth character no longer leaves tracks, people can't see footprints going into strange places and go "Hey, that's weird, let's investigate."

Alright, I'm going to disclose the plan since people have a very clear concern and me pointing at phase 1 won't fix that.

In nwnx there's a function called
NWNX_Appearance_SetOverride() :https://nwnxee.github.io/unified/group_ ... cf9c17af29

This is not tested and I do not know if it will even work but the plan is to make tracks a hidden object with an AoE around them that when you enter you roll vs the lowest hide score on the tracks.
If you fail they REMAIN unseen.
If you pass, you can now see the tracks.
Each record then internally rolls to see ANY details when interacted with.

Right now I wanted the core out so I can have any bugs I missed addressed, which so far is three racial and a gender misrepresentation.

Thank you for sharing that with us, it's good to know. I hope it does work out, I like the idea.

For more feedback, I like the door change on quarters. I like that it will leave a way for people to know someone's been in their quarter.

While tracks are being reworked, could these be moved a bit to not overlap with interactable areas such as ship docks, hatches, portals etc. especially for docks it would be useful to read them, but so far I never managed since the dock object was covering the tracks.

Sincra wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:13 am
This is not tested and I do not know if it will even work but the plan is to make tracks a hidden object with an AoE around them that when you enter you roll vs the lowest hide score on the tracks.
If you fail they REMAIN unseen.
If you pass, you can now see the tracks.
Each record then internally rolls to see ANY details when interacted with.

Right now I wanted the core out so I can have any bugs I missed addressed, which so far is three racial and a gender misrepresentation.

Now if the lowest hide score on tracks means it takes all your hide details buffs in to see anything at all then that is one thing but if the lowest score is always going to be no higher then the 10 it currently is to see general tracks then the issue I have with the system remains completely unaddressed. As it stands now low player volume races that are not on the auto exclude list (which is extensive) that are not sub races ( Drow, wild dwarfs) are at a huge disadvantages to any stealth RP. Giant, Pixie, Imp and likely one or two others have none of the protections afforded to the vast majority of the players in that regard as even their most basic track might as well be a signed letter.

Fey, Imp, Giant, and some other low volume playable race players will have any action they take that leaves a track as basically a neon sign that says one of a small number of players was here so you can exclude 99% of the server population from the investigation.

An Imp brakes into your quarters knowing no other details you now have a pool of suspects you can likely count on one hand.

A pixie leaves a track on a room transition pop true sight found and done.

This is not much of an issue with Drow or Durgger as you need a lot of extra things to learn it was anything but a elf or dwarf
but giant, fey and imp tracks, as examples, give all the information you need from the get go to narrow the suspects down to finger counting levels, not to mention a quick search of the player list and you have with almost 100% certainty your target.

Pixies are particularly hit hard by the change as one of their advantages (leaving no tracks in light or no armor) has been removed and replaces with a trial unique to them and obvious to almost everyone on the server.

it is clear to me with the list of exclusions

Vampires
Rakshasa
Cambion
Dragon races
Genasi
Imaskari
Yuan-ti

that thought was put into how this could be abused but by affording these races protections and not other low population races
it leaves the ones left out at a crippling disadvantage to any sort of stealth RP

Those races are afforded that protection because they never gave their details away regardless of tracks or not, a fey that left tracks said fey.

I'm going to ask that you read my post again, as I clearly state it will roll against each record when interacted with.

Sincra wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:17 am Those races are afforded that protection because they never gave their details away regardless of tracks or not, a fey that left tracks said fey.

I'm going to ask that you read my post again, as I clearly state it will roll against each record when interacted with.

I read it several times and roll against each record clarifies nothing to someone that is not heavily involved with making it in the first place.

What is being rolled and what numbers are being used to determine that roll? Against what DC and what numbers will be used in that none of that is clear in your post.

The information I have is that all general tracks are viewable by anyone with a soft 10 in spot or search, literally anyone in the game who makes even the slightest effort can reach this. Nothing in your post clearly indicates that this will ever be different and, not one single time has anyone spoken to my actual feedback that this change cripples stealth RP for only a very few races.

Fey being the one I sight the most because that is what I am playing and going from leaving no tracks to leaving tracks anyone can see and with such a small player population of fey basically guaranteeing that any investigation will instantly lead to a ludicrously small pool of suspects cripples any stealth RP from a race that was originally intended to be good at stealth RP.

I believe that my original point has been completely ignored. All of the very low player population races that I have already pointed out they are either un trackable in the new system or requires skills beyond normal to identify their sub race.

GIant and Fey and Imp (likely more) are all low population and their basic tracks will give anyone all the information that they need to know the individual that they are tracking or that broke into their house or that dug up a grave or whatever because the low number of players with thous races makes the suspect pool microscopic.

I do not know how to make that point more clear having tracks of a dwarf suspect could be one of a lot of folks same with human or elf or hin having Fey tracks means the total suspect poll might be as high as 5 that is a huge difference and that cripples any ability to do stealth or spy RP

So here comes a different view

I look at this new system, as innovative as f**k, its quite an amazing groundwork.
Now.. the tools to investigate bloodstains and break ins are, so much needed for the guards to do a proper investigation breakin, thank you for that (i do break ins, so this only creates more RP, for the thief aswell, i approved)

For the tracks, well... giant with ranger levels, hence trackless, well.. i would dare state they need to put in extra effort to hide their enourmous feet tracks.
Having a ton load of iron ores on you, would make you heavier, so.. again a no brainer.

I play a rogue/ranger, hence i WAS trackless, but still, seems to me all my skills in gide, bluff, ranger and rogue levela, adds up to not completely reveal me, lets us see how it plays out before we all go "crazy" here?

Im excited about the new change

Lurko wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:07 pm I'm playing a stealth pixie and the new changes completely cripple my ability to effectively sneak and render any action that will leave any tracks as an almost unique fingerprint pointing right at me.

going from no tracks to everyone can track you always is a massive change and hiding details is irrelevant when your actual track is all anyone needs to know to narrow it down to one of a very few characters.

love this since it will also make bringing quarterbreakers to justice instead of just having them have carte blanche entry and exit without repercussions.

its not that everyone can track you, but those who are make as trackers will be able to .

I also want to chip and say I think these changes are great.

Especially excited about the possibility to use tracks on quarters.

I'm not ignoring your original point, I even went so far as to reveal the plan for how to address this particular concern.

Lurko wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:05 pm I read it several times and roll against each record clarifies nothing to someone that is not heavily involved with making it in the first place.

The dc will be the hide score of each record, so if you're exceptionally good, in future, your tracks won't be seen in amongst the stack of others, or alone.
IF I can make this work, which i have a couple backup ideas if not.

I sympathise with the fact you're playing a small number race, and that they are being given a unique race string, but once the next phase is complete the system will be actively hiding tracks if you are competent at hiding yourself. Which fey get bonuses to.

This thing of "I saw tracks going into my house" only matters if they remember to check and under the next phase, will be a dc based check to see anything, so again will be solved.


I appreciate feedback no matter positive or negative and anything put here I am reading, so I apologise if anyone feels a part of their concerns aren't addressed.


Small edit:
Tracks that are transition based only spawn in areas as before the system.
Tracks from investigate spawn regardless.

Oh boy, I can’t wait to hunt specifically fey sneaks.

That joke aside, this is a pretty awesome system. I play an assassin, and I’m keen to see how the hunter + being hunted mini-game will play out. Cat and mouse games with NWN stealth are always a mix of mechanics and psychology. Nice to see we’ll have some fairly well thought out mechanics.

Sincra wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:13 am Alright, I'm going to disclose the plan since people have a very clear concern and me pointing at phase 1 won't fix that.

In nwnx there's a function called
NWNX_Appearance_SetOverride() :https://nwnxee.github.io/unified/group_ ... cf9c17af29

This is not tested and I do not know if it will even work but the plan is to make tracks a hidden object with an AoE around them that when you enter you roll vs the lowest hide score on the tracks.
If you fail they REMAIN unseen.
If you pass, you can now see the tracks.
Each record then internally rolls to see ANY details when interacted with.

Right now I wanted the core out so I can have any bugs I missed addressed, which so far is three racial and a gender misrepresentation.

Sounds like chest digging spots.

Everybody's tracks seem to be reading as male.

Yeahhhhhh, That one will be fixed shortly. I forgot a line of code and tested races with male only.