Arelith

Having regularly been playing a Half-Orc that dwells around their camp for over 2 months now, I would like to share some of my impressions and leave some feedback about their camp and its properties, to chip in at possible improvements to it in the future.

As it is now, the camp can be entered through the front gate by either being a Half-Orc, making a leadership check, or by making a climb check at a climb spot nearby. The gate can also be opened by a lever on the opposite side of the gate, which is reachable after using the climb spot. The area right after the gate and the climb spot is the 'social space' where the Half-Orcs spend most of their time at.

The difficulty of entering the camp as a non-Half-Orc is fairly easy, and while I am not sure how high the Leadership check for the gate is, I have never had any problems using the climb spot on any of my characters, none of which have any skill investment in climb or gear. Even on classes that do not get any bonus on climb, there is easily obtainable gear that adds +20 to it with 4 items.

The camp succeeds at its purpose of bringing the Half-Orcs together in a common social space very well. However, having it be so easily accessible by anyone can be quite problematic.

During my time there, there have been recurring situations where one of the Half-Orcs causes conflict with a non-Half-Orc or a group, and the usual reaction is a party, ranging from 4 to over 10 characters comes to the camp and starts hostilities with anyone who may be there at the time. This usually ends up in pvp.

More often than not, the attacking group has so many characters that there is no competition to be had at all. The Half-Orcs have to either run away from their own home or die to overwhelming odds. After all, they are always at a disadvantage as the attackers always know exactly where they are at, can enter the area effortlessly and can attack at any time with any number of characters, all of which will already be prepared for the fight.

Normally such attacks cannot be made without DM oversight due to the settlement raid rules. But as the Half-Orc camp is not a settlement, players can bring any number of characters to it with hostile intention, without any notice beforehand.

I believe a layout akin to the one the Order of the Radiant Heart has would be much more practical and eliminate some of the above problems. More specifically, the NPC merchants (and portal in the camps case) can be behind a racial / leadership check gate / climb spot, while the properties and larger social space could be behind a guildhouse owned gate (preferably a guildhouse that can only be purchased by Half-Orcs). That way the newer members of the camp are not blocked out of using its basic functions before they are given a key to the 'inner' camp. It would also ensure that any attackers have to at least invest in finding a quarterbreaker too, if they want to carry out an attack, while also giving a better chance to the camp dwellers in avoiding being ambushed.

The ease of access to the camp also creates issues for their ship, that is not racially locked and can be rented by anyone. This makes storing anything valuable on the ship impossible as it is just stolen. It personally makes no sense to me that the Half-Orc crew on board would agree to sail with just about anyone, so perhaps the ship specifically could be racially locked to Half-Orcs only, much like the pirate ships are locked to pirates. Having its sign behind a guildhouse gate would also eliminate this issue.

Overall, despite the above problems, playing a Half-Orc and utilizing their camp has been enjoyable, and could perhaps be made even better in the future with a few adjustments in its layout.

Thanks for your time.

False Nibble wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:30 pmI have never had any problems using the climb spot on any of my characters, none of which have any skill investment in climb or gear.

I can only agree that it's no problem entering the camp at all. It's more difficult passing the chasm in the low-level area Tombs of the First King in Sibayad than getting into the horc-camp, where players been trying to gather wood, cloth, fishing items and supplies in the public chest, only to find all of it stolen the next day, sadly.

False Nibble wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:30 pmMore often than not, the attacking group has so many characters that there is no competition to be had at all.

Giving the characters and especially the communal storage more security would encourage more players to stay. The way it is rightnow the camp has to remain deserted simply not to draw the mass-pvp to the low level characters involved in the camp, ultimately impeding the RP there in general. That's why I also think giving the place actual security would be great, rightnow pretty much anybody can bypass the gate or climbing spot.

False Nibble wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:30 pmNormally such attacks cannot be made without DM oversight due to the settlement raid rules.

This is also something that I find problematic. There are plenty of NPCs who are supposed to be protective of their home in the camp, but simply because it is not seen as a settlement anybody can come anytime with as many players to start pvp without any application. That doesn't seem to respect the setting of the server to me at all.

False Nibble wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:30 pmMore specifically, the NPC merchants (and portal in the camps case) can be behind a racial / leadership check gate / climb spot, while the properties and larger social space could be behind a guildhouse owned gate (preferably a guildhouse that can only be purchased by Half-Orcs). That way the newer members of the camp are not blocked out of using its basic functions before they are given a key to the 'inner' camp.

That would be great and perhaps invite for looking at the stocks of the NPC shops and ship access. Rightnow the NPC merchants barely have anything useful thing like healing kits to offer. It also seems rather odd to me that the horc ship sign is inside the horc camp but docking at the Crows Nest, while litteraly any non-horc can easily trespass to rent it, steal the inventory and sink it.

False Nibble wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:30 pm(...) their ship, that is not racially locked and can be rented by anyone. This makes storing anything valuable on the ship impossible as it is just stolen. It personally makes no sense to me that the Half-Orc crew on board would agree to sail with just about anyone (...)

I agree with this, it doesn't seem to respect the setting of the server or make any narrative sense for a Camp of "outsiders" to rent out their ship to anybody once they succesfully trespassed or snuck into the camp against the inhabitant's sentiment to keep non-horcs out.

I agree with everything above.

False Nibble wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:30 pm
During my time there, there have been recurring situations where one of the Half-Orcs causes conflict with a non-Half-Orc or a group, and the usual reaction is a party, ranging from 4 to over 10 characters comes to the camp and starts hostilities with anyone who may be there at the time. This usually ends up in pvp.

More often than not, the attacking group has so many characters that there is no competition to be had at all. The Half-Orcs have to either run away from their own home or die to overwhelming odds. After all, they are always at a disadvantage as the attackers always know exactly where they are at, can enter the area effortlessly and can attack at any time with any number of characters, all of which will already be prepared for the fight.

It seems like you are requesting the ability to start conflict and become immune to the wider consequences. You should roleplay building relations and alliances to make raiding such a camp far too costly of a venture. It can be quite fun RP to hire mercenaries etc.

Normally such attacks cannot be made without DM oversight due to the settlement raid rules. But as the Half-Orc camp is not a settlement, players can bring any number of characters to it with hostile intention, without any notice beforehand.

This seems fine but it would not change the crux of your problem which is retaliation, it'd merely require a message to DMs from one person unless NPCs are attacked which would require a full scheduling of an event.

Snake2512 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:30 am It seems like you are requesting the ability to start conflict and become immune to the wider consequences. You should roleplay building relations and alliances to make raiding such a camp far too costly of a venture. It can be quite fun RP to hire mercenaries etc.

That's not what they're asking. They're asking for the Half-Orc camp to count as a settlement for purposes of raids because it's non-settlement status is being abused.

Snake2512 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:30 am It seems like you are requesting the ability to start conflict and become immune to the wider consequences. You should roleplay building relations and alliances to make raiding such a camp far too costly of a venture. It can be quite fun RP to hire mercenaries etc.

Most racial / class social spaces are either in a settlement or have a guildhouse. The Half-Orc camp is one of the few exceptions that does not follow that layout, while also being so easy to enter by anyone.

'Becoming immune to the wider consequences' because of an unbreachable quarter door is a wider issue that, in my opinion, should be addressed at some point as well. I don't see why quarter locks and traps can still be boosted over DC 127, while the theft rules have changed to 1 item per day. This only limits RP opportunities and enables the problem you mention. I agree fully that there should be no areas in the server that are completely unreachable by other characters. An invested quarterbreaker should be able to get you through any door.

In any case, the Half-Orc camp is at the other end of the spectrum right now, and can be entered effortlessly by anyone, as is detailed above. Perhaps even a boost in the Leadership / Climb DCs would be somewhat effective.

Sure, conflict roleplay and making alliances can be fun. Though I don't see how hiring any amount of mercenaries can help if the camp can be attacked effortlessly, at any time and with any number of characters. It's not like your allies will be online all day or wait around camp all the time to defend it when an attacking group can show up at any time.

I just noticed though that the raid rules include outposts, which is what the Half-Orc camp is. I don't know if that was changed recently, but it seems like it falls under the same rules after all. This can be helpful in defending it and avoiding silliness, as an attacking group would have to have a specific goal when attacking the camp and cannot linger around it to pick a fight with any random dweller that may be there. It also limits the number of characters that can attack at a time (up to 7) and forces them to ping a DM every time if it's over 4.

This still does not solve the issue of their ship and public storage being up for grabs by everyone, however.

There's a bit to unpack here, and really much of it is up to Irongron. But reguarding the part about Raids:

A 'Raid' is an attack on the structure and NPCs of a settlement. Which is to say – any attack that /knowingly/ targets a settlements npc population and structures – as opposed to the pc population, should be done only with DM supervision – and with an application to the DM team (as the above post outlines.) Targeting NPCs and rping attacking a settlement without permission may be deemed a rules breach.

PC attacks on other pcs in a settlement are not deemed raids. HOWEVER if the force attacking is large (say over 5 pcs) we STRONGLY suggest you do so only with a DM's permission and oversight, and ideally you should refrain from large scale conflicts in settlement areas entirely. Such attacks can end up involving, and being at the cost of, uninvolved, low level PCs. Being killed by a mob of 20 people at level 8 for being in the wrong place at the wrong time is no fun for anyone.

We understand such things can happen 'on the spur' of the moment – as rescue operations for example – but a DM presence is vital for a) Ensuring all rules are kept and b) allowing NPCs to properly respond. So please, if you intend to attack PCs in a settlment with a large force – seek DM oversight and remember to respect the presence of NPCs, with or without Dms.

Whilst we are laxing the rules on what counts on a 'Raid' we will still be monitoring people property respecting the presence of NPCs. Though who repeatedly and blatantly fail to respect them will find their rpr lowered, and possibly a MoD given out.

Small Addendum

This really shouldn't need saying, but the above really goes double for monster races attacking surface settlments. Please don't do this unless you have DM oversite and Permission.

Even if the halforc settlment got full settlment status, what that would mean is that we'd request large groups (as a very rough estimate I'd say over five or six, but please take that as only the very roughest of estimates) to please shoot us a message over the DM chanel if they decide to attack.

If it were a starter settlment, or a highly trafficed settlment, we would probably work to make sure attackers, if victorious, didn't stay around too long. But I really don't think that the halforc camp counts as the former, and or honestly the latter most of the time.

So yeah, I don't know that declairing it a 'settlment' would really give you what you seem to want?

The GrumpyCat wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:18 pm So yeah, I don't know that declairing it a 'settlment' would really give you what you seem to want?

The Raid Rules I read earlier from http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Rules#Raids

There are two types of raids. Hard raids and soft raids. These rules are only considered in areas with a fair amount of intelligent NPCs, like a village or an outpost. We don’t care if big fights or ambushes happen out in the wilderness.

• A hard raid requires permission from the team two weeks in advance through the forums or via email. It targets any area with NPCs and can involve any number of players in an attack. The goal can be unspecific such as ‘slaughter everyone in the area’ or something specific such as ‘save Tim from execution’ or ‘get revenge because Tim was executed’. Dungeon Masters are present for the raid to play as NPCs and to try and keep everything under control and playing smoothly. The requirement for roleplay before pvp is a little more lax and a lot of people will die. The two week timing in advance also lets us plan special effects and other fun content.
• A soft raid does not require permission. The characters can not kill NPCs. The only requirement is that the team is alerted in the moment with a message to the /dm channel several times before and during the attack. It has a group between five to seven characters. The characters have a specific goal in mind such as saving their friend, killing a government official or kidnapping someone. Once the goal is completed they must leave immediately. They can not linger with the vague intention of picking a fight with whoever is there, waiting and hoping more show up.

It’s possible for a large group of friends to wind up in a fight. This isn’t a raid or a soft raid. It’s just a big fight. They happen sometimes spontaneously. The difference is whether or not it was planned. If you’re on a mission, keep to the soft raid requirements. If you and twelve friends are just hanging out and get into a fight in the middle of Cordor, that can just happen. Don’t be technical and rules lawyer the situation. If you’re trying to cheese the requirements like, ‘we were just going on a walk into Brogendenstein and ended up killing everyone’ then we’ll know you’re being obtuse on purpose. The difference is very obvious to us, we don’t like rules lawyers and they’re never as clever as they think they are.

We will still be monitoring people properly respecting the presence of NPCs. Those who repeatedly and blatantly fail to respect them will find their RPB lowered, and possibly a MoD given out.

As a reminder, a one-line DM channel notification that a raid is going to happen is not enough. And those continuing to raid without permission will be handed punishments accordingly. We are all attempting to tell a story and have fun, let us not ruin it by breaching the rules.

These seem to include villages and outposts, so I imagine the Half-Orc camp is included in that too.

As was said above, this can be helpful in defending the camp as it limits the number of characters that can attack at a time and how long they can stay in the camp, while also ensuring they have a reasonable goal for attacking with that many characters and provides a chance for DM involvement which can be much more fun than 10 characters killing 2 in a round.

I'm a little unsure which of the two versions of the raid rules applies though?

Probably the latter rules are better honestly. I'm sorry for getting that wrong.

Still, I'm really not convinced that the halforc camp should be made a setlment. yes it's busy now, but it also goes through very long periods of complete inactivity. Really though - it doesn't matter what I think, it matters more what Irongron says- so it's up to him.

The way I understand it, he is not requesting the Horc Camp to be made a settlement and this hasn't been the focus of this feedback.

Merely there is the consensus around the players (who are all very welcoming of conflict and pvp-heavy RP, by the way) is, that it is far too easy to enter the camp, and that it could be easily fixed.

Nobody is asking for the Horc-Camp to be turned into a settlement.

Simply raising the climbing and leadership DC to a level that is more realistic in the face of current character skill-levels is what it comes down to.

The GrumpyCat wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:16 pm Still, I'm really not convinced that the halforc camp should be made a setlment.

Considering the camp is included in the above raid rules, as it is an outpost with several NPCs in it, nothing needs to be changed regarding its settlement status.

It would still be nice if it wasn't so easily accessible by everyone and if their ship could be racially locked to Half-Orcs only, so the camps public storage and ship could be better utilized, and any non-Half-Orc able to trespass inside would have to actually invest in a respective skill to do so.

This is the next best thing I can think of, without making any major overhowls to the camp, like adding a guildhouse to it.

Everything was well covered by False Nibble. We do need to be better defended by our npc. She can't be opening the door to just about anyone. And that climb is also another easy way to enter. Raising those check hard would be a beginning, let them invest some points into the skills at least.

Another big deal is the ship. The half orcs on the ship, letting anyone sail, does not make any sense at all. We build RP about a warship, so hopefully one day, we can have a proper ship only us can sail.

It is interesting reading this thread when the original Half-Orc Camp began completely out in the open, welcoming nearly just everyone who sat down around the fire, although I agree a guildhouse would be welcome, even better if the ship is attached to it somehow. It takes a lot of effort to run a successful sailing crew, even more when out of a ship anyone can access

It seems like you are asking for an OOC solution for an IC problem.

We are not asking for anything OOC. We simply want the Half orc camp to be more secure, as it stands literally anyone can get inside, might as well remove the door at this point.

Tarkus the dog wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:34 am It seems like you are asking for an OOC solution for an IC problem.

I don't consider discussing ideas for improvements to the camp to be 'OOC solutions to IC problems'.

A few examples:

- Their ship can currently be rented by any trespasser in the area. This just seems like an oversight / limitation, as the crew on board consists solely of Half-Orcs. It doesn't make sense that they would take anyone on board for 500 gold.
- The climb spot that can be used by everyone without any skill investment. ICly the camp dwellers could easily fortify that spot to make it harder to use. Perhaps something like this could even be implemented. Fortifications by the climb spot that increase the climb DC. Those could degrade over time and have to be repaired using Carpentry / Forging.
- The gate guard that can be persuaded so easily into opening it to everyone. ICly this makes no sense either, as the camp is strictly a racial social space.

All the above are IC issues that can only be improved by sharing ideas here.

On that note, I'm not quite sure why the camps shop signs are on the opposite side of the gate either. I imagine it was designed that way so they couldn't be taken as easily by non-Half-Orcs, but their camp is so easy to enter anyway. It can be a bit annoying to run back and forth between the shop and the sign while resupplying / adjusting prices, as they are separated by the camp gate. Perhaps these could be moved to where shop signs usually are (next to the shop) and be racially locked instead.

An additional feedback/suggestion.

The half-orc camp is huge, but only allows a 60 fixture limit. Could use a boost.

I feel like the most important point would be to restrict the access of the ship, the fact that the crew would sail anyone, even those who are "at war" with the camp, does not respect the server's setting in my eyes.

I believe the overall feeling that the camp lacks security is mainly due to the horc-ship being abducted, since that has been the most frustrating facette of building RP in the camp. It just feels like the ship just isn't actually the horc's ship, while the ship and sail system is on fire rightnow and it has become a major motivator all across different player groups.

There is a strong feeling of the players there that the place "doesnt really feel like their actual home" because of this lack of basic control.

To me it seems that the Horc-ship being rentable by anyone is not exactly intended, since it is "locked" behind a racial restricted gate. However since bypassing that gate has become absolutely no problem for any character, it does seem that way.

The most awkward moment is when you invite "guests" to come sailing with you only to find that your maxed out longship has been rented out by someone who you just explained you are at war with. My character fumbles when being asked why it is that the crew would head out with them in the first place. And that's when I recognize - my character has no answer to this, since it is simply, not true to the setting.

None of the players involved want to shut themselves away from any pvp or consequences, this is also not a "new issue". I've made similiar posts in the past over the years, since this issue of a lack of security and the ship being taken away has been the major reason why no RP persists in the Horde-Camp, here on this "persisting online nwn server".

But this isn't about the group of players RPing there now. This is about making the Horde-Camp be what it is supposed to be in the long run. I love the idea of it and love what the current players make of it. The only reason I am invested in this is because I do not want them to get exhausted.

About the half orc camp:

The half orcs and the half orc camp specifically bring a different flavor to play styles, as most of the half orcs that frequent the camp are more feral and wild in nature, we don't have all the laws and restrictions of a lot of settlements. It give half orcs a place that's not a city, but where they can also gather with their kin and not have to do everything solo. Half orcs are tribal, wild, often savage, yet communal in nature. I think that's a fun dynamic that doesn't exist anywhere else on Arelith, and I think many people enjoy that aspect of it. I myself love playing a half orc, and it's by far my favorite character to play due to the dynamics of my character and how different he is from other characters.

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Things I think would be beneficial for the camp:

- Better security for the camp as well as the ship (I had max locks and doors on my house and was paying 28k a game month for my door, I get that people can break in, the part that urked me was that someone was able to permanently disable my lock, so all that gold was wasted), I get that the camp can't and shouldn't be completely accessible to others, the same as cities and such, but the cities and such do have guild houses to afford a certain level of security gates and such cannot.
- I think the Brewmaster near the stewpot should buy all the meats and anything that a half orc might construe as food (think of a communal cauldron/croc pot), it would give half orcs a reason to use the camp for more than a portal.
- A resource chest
- A banker (for using the basin and such)
- Make the peddler in the camp as versatile as the peddler on the docks
- A guild house, I have played through like 5 chiefs now, we have used a singular cave as a makeshift guild house, but we have no real house
- The communal chest had about a million gold worth of items donated by another player the other day, someone walked in and took it all
- A simple yet proper fighting pit, like Cordor or Sibayad, nothing nearly as complicated as the pits in Dis or Soulhaven Monastary, orcs like fighting for sport, it would probably get used more than the other arenas combined (except for the large arena events of course).

- Houses/caves and perhaps the ship should be rentable by only half orcs, the same way as some shops and houses can only be rented by certain other races.

- Maybe a shop or two inside the gates or the above mentioned guild house specifically intended for the half orcs.
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Other things to things to be addressed and responses to other ideas and statements:

- The shops - The placement of the shops is so that the half orcs can sell their wares to outsiders for trade purposes, that's why the shops are outside of the gate, and the signs to rent them are on the inside of the gate.

- The Portal - Maybe the portal can be moved to outside the gate, giving people less reason to trespass into the camp, it would be convenient for all players, and would also mean that non orcs coming into the camp would more likely than not be there to cause trouble. The portal being outside the gate would also generate more traffic for the shops outside of the gate.

- In response to the hostilities in the camp - We are basically in a war with other characters, so it sucks, but it's to be expected. Hopefully the people attacking the camp follow the same guidelines we have to. We were told that we can't respond to attacks at the camp unless we went hunting the attackers in a settlement unless we went with 4 people or less, or with the permission of a DM first. (Attacking any large settlement usually results in the attackers getting their butts kicked. I have only been on for one attack at the camp, and once when we retaliated by going to Andunor before I was told we need DM approval first, which is fine now that I know. I think the purpose of that is to give the defenders a fighting chance when people come looking for trouble, so I get it. DM events are obviously different. The camp has been attacked several times, usually resulting in lowbies getting smoked or having to run for their lives.

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In short, the point of the game is to have fun, not to bully or be bullied into not having fun, whether IC or OOC, so lets keep it that way.

I also agree that the camp needs a guild section or better protections. Let's discuss this avoiding consequences argument.

A half-orc or two, pick a fight with someone, or just react to a fight with someone. This individual or individuals, then rallies an entire group/groups to get back at this person, often within minutes. Their choice for doing so? Go to the only camp that's half-orc specific, and kill everyone inside. There's nothing stopping them. A door or climb spot that anyone can get through. So a half-orc causes a problem, and now every half-orc that wants to go to the camp for rp is at risk for getting butchered because there's nothing to stop anyone from doing so. Then they're told to anticipate consequences. What other racial faction needs to anticipate consequences like this? Does an elf need to worry about Myon getting razed within 15 mins of a pvp fight from a single elf fight? Nope. Does Bendir need to worry about it? A human from cordor? No. So orcs are basically being told, don't engage in any conflicts, or if you do, make sure the half-orc camp is abandoned or we're teaching you all a lesson. I can see why the camp has been struggling to stick around.

These groups would hesitate to attack another settlement, because they'd be faced with mechanical and rule protections that other places have. They'd need time to actually 'rp' out their attack, or to focus on finding the individual/individuals that caused the problem, and not just gather up all their buddies and kill everyone on sight to get back at that one orc that chased them off.

As for consequences for these groups to attack an orc? They have the protections of their own settlements. So they're free to attack willy nilly, and there's no way to get them back except to go through all the hassle of a settlement raid, and that takes time to gather forces willing for that kind of thing, with a risk far greater. So one side has this huge advantage of protections, where the other doesn't.

In the end, you have a camp that's trying to grow its half-orc population, but having an extra layer of difficulty because the camp has thus far been a free-for-all, and suffers from a lack of protections other places have. It's time for a change.

As a side note: One of the groups has begun a plan to attack the orcs in a specific way. The rp behind that's amazing. It's bringing orcs all together to talk defenses and strategy. Fantastic. The camp is all for it. The camp getting attacked isn't the issue, it's that people often get upset from a pvp scuffle, and use the lack of protections as an excuse to charge in and slaughter everyone, instead of taking the time to properly rp something. This causes lowbies/newbies/non-involved participants to get put off from going to the camp; not good. A more difficult gate/climb spot, or just a guild settlement style gate would help with that.

Also more fixtures, ship racial lock, and turn the crashed ship into a quarters, specifically for my character. Thanks

I think if the Half Orc camp was improved visually and made into a little fortress like you can imagine half orcs having then id probably make a half orc myself and join them. Right now there's no reason to stick around there, its just a trap for Half Orcs for other factions to enjoy - Like shooting fish in a barrel.