Arelith

With the recent change to bard, they now have access to all class skills. This is, in my opinion, a big mistake. We've already enabled quarterbreakers to easily beat all door DC, and now bards won't even need to multiclass in order to achieve the 127DC number.

I really suggest that bard retains its original class skills and leave those class skills to rogue (and other rogue like classes).

Ork beat me to it.

Sorry bard. I love the class. I love the players. But this sounds reasonable to me too.

A jack of all trades, but also a master of all trades. And very hard to kill. And can make everyone around them a master of all trades, too

And can throw gates at you.

I never liked bards. The whole "I sing my heart out while superior adventurers kill things" angle never appealed to me. But before this update, at least they had their niche: getting easily killed and then writing sad songs about it.

Please don't turn these silly D&D relics into hyper-competent power builds.

Agreed 100%

I'm sorry, but did I miss an update or was this posted to discord?

I wish to elaborate on my opinion, since this thread is really about quarter breaking.

I think solo quarter breaking shouldnt be possible at all. I think quarter breaking should require you finding the right people in game and building trust with them to then do it together, but currently with the right build setup and some math it can be done solo and I think it's not good, and does not promote RP into the already RPless pvp that is stealing from quarters.

Additionally, with the ease to level to 30 now, it’s far less of an investment to make a quarter breaking character than it once was which created a huge barrier to entry.

Not sure how I feel about it; certainly open lock and disable trap are too much. On the flip side there's a set amount of skillpoints each class is given.

I think at the end of it we're looking at the wrong issue; breaking into quarters is a silly mechanic that makes theoretical sense on paper but is currently a headache.

Archnon wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:15 am I'm sorry, but did I miss an update or was this posted to discord?

It was the big bard update made by sorrowkitten.

I don't really care or have or want a quarterbreaker but- wouldn't a bard require something like 30 base dex and SF/ESF open locks to bypass a 127 lock? And then the door is still going to be trapped? Not saying things have to stay as they are but it's not a problem where all bards can now be quarterbreakers, it's still a specific and sounds to me a rather annoying build.

Eyeliner wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:36 am I don't really care or have or want a quarterbreaker but- wouldn't a bard require something like 30 base dex and SF/ESF open locks to bypass a 127 lock? And then the door is still going to be trapped? Not saying things have to stay as they are but it's not a problem where all bards can now be quarterbreakers, it's still a specific and sounds to me a rather annoying build.

To be specific, minimum of base 20 INT and 22-24 DEX, assuming has most gear that exist towards the purpose. Elf is best, due to racial hard bonus to Search and having either +2 Dex or +2 INT at crearion. More stats either if want better chances than 1/20 to open.

The schematic has changed a bit with nat 1 trap possible; quarter traps go +300 damage, so low CON may be an issue.

Giving bard access to all class skills is a very bad idea, mechanically speaking.

I hadn't even considered the implications brought up in this thread. I was mostly upset it made Specialist virtually obsolete since "access to all skills" is half its shtick. Maybe more than half.

Distant Relation wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:14 am I hadn't even considered the implications brought up in this thread. I was mostly upset it made Specialist virtually obsolete since "access to all skills" is half its shtick. Maybe more than half.

For most builds who arent taking specialist SPECIFICALLY to save an epic feat for some skill, bards is now a direct upgrade or at the very least a good side-grade to specialist for all skill access and bard also gives you access to high umd harps. so to most builds bard is an upgrade to specialist and specialist has a feat requirement. lol.

I don't mind the skills. The class is brokenly overpowered is the thing, though it's never gonna get nerfed and that's alright. All my friends are bards for once and I'm loving it.

Tarkus the dog wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:18 pm I don't mind the skills. The class is brokenly overpowered is the thing, though it's never gonna get nerfed and that's alright. All my friends are bards for once and I'm loving it.

Ironically its actually nerfed from where it was before the song changes back when, it's just gotten easier to solo level recently.

Let's take a moment to recognise a few things:
The skill change was directed by RedRopes, do not take that to Sorrowkitten as if it is their fault or anything, remember things can be changed and I ask people to take a breath before posting/approaching this issue.

The OL/DT song can be taken with rogue, 20 bard/10 rogue I am told. Removing skills achieves nothing except making this particular split more incentivised, it even gets more skill points

Having more skills available != having more skill points to spend, more choice doesn't really equate to being able to use it effectively.

Specialist translates a pre epic feat into an epic one, which coincidentally can be done while paying for loremaster or Knight or extending into the niche of sf + esf for things like qb, it has it's uses, they're just not as singularly outstanding anymore.

That being said, do I think Bards should be able to solo quarter doors? No, but I am not the only deciding individual and as such this is a personal opinion, but, it is one we are talking over inside the team.
Quarterbreaking is a fine line and one everyone needs to understand is there to help stop this feeling of being completely safe from repercussions. This does not excuse the fact it has been abused in the past, but this is why we discuss things.
If we make it harder, why have Quarter breaking?
If we make it easier, why have Quarters?
For this last one we saw the chilling effect on quarter storage when settlement banks were added, it was safer and so of course all real valuables ceased to exist in quarters, for the most part, this doesn't mean they don't! But it does mean it's far less likely than before.

Hopefully this helps put some perspective on the issue and raises some food for thought.

But, why do bards get all skills? They don't even get all that in 3.5. Animal Empathy, Disable Trap, Intimidate, Spot, Open Lock, Parry, Ride, Search, and Set Trap are all skills they shouldn't have.

Even Taunt is wrongly granted by the core game.

But what makes a bard suddenly become a master of all? The "jack of all trades, master of none" concept is perfectly reflected in cross-classing skills, and not in being the best skill monkey class in the entire game. Sorry, pure Rogues, you're now more unneeded than ever before.

A key thing to note Sincra is that a 20 bard/10 rogue is significantly less useful in other environments than a 30 bard. I'd rather quarterbreakers have to sacrifice something in the form of CL, bard tier, etc. than have a L30 bard that can open quarters and buff their party at the top tier -1.

Obviously they need to invest in dex and int, but bards usefulness primarily comes from their total levels in bard.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:31 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:18 pm I don't mind the skills. The class is brokenly overpowered is the thing, though it's never gonna get nerfed and that's alright. All my friends are bards for once and I'm loving it.

Ironically its actually nerfed from where it was before the song changes back when, it's just gotten easier to solo level recently.

Which game ya playin

Jacks of all trades don't exist on NwN except for niche activities that barely matter (opening low DC chests, for example). A build either can do something or it can't. Bards getting the option to do it all is still incredibly strong as it allows them to do whatever they want with no trade-off for it. Just choose the right skills and sing. You can do it.

On top of that, they get an almost absurd selection of spells that infringe on what other supports can offer: Aid, FoM, Good Hope, Aura of Glory, Lesser Mind Blank. They even get Camouflage and Rogue's Cunning to cast on themselves.

And if you also take into account how they have a song for almost every single situation, one can start to see why jacks of all trades don't work on NwN. There is no need to be mediocre. Having the option to do it all doesn't mean you have to. Instead, with how many skill points we get nowadays, bards can choose to excel at many things with no sacrifice. Having to hurt your CL to get something is a sacrifice, but not taking Heal because you ran out of skill points after covering everything else is just an inconvenience.

I mention the jack of all trades because Red Ropes talked to me about it while asking for feedback on some of these changes. I hope it is useful as a reference, but even without it, everything else still stands.

TL;DR: bards are too good at too many things. They should lose something.

I have nothing to say about the change that has not already been said, so I'm just going to point out that only one person here has defended it so far. When a change is that overwhelmingly unpopular it probably suggests a need to reevaluate it.

A good friend of mine who likes playing gnomes got back into Arelith because bards were given search, so please don't remove search!

For people who think EVERYONE is unhappy with the change? Pls divide the number of people who posted here vs total player number and make that claim.

Anyone with common sense know there is FIXED number of skill points, if they max out something yeah! They loose other things. Someone here make me feel that bard gets 33 on everything, esf all and +10, +2 gears on all skills, complete ignored the fact that real bard has limited feat and only so many gears. What is it to loose, for other players, if one bard is maxed looter, one lock picker, other one being a merchant? Right, and they need to hunt for songs, I only learned 2 locations so far, all end-game areas.

If Bard is indeed this OP, let Arelith swarmed with bards, then the team definitely will consider the balance issue. But until now, Bards needs to beg for a team to level (the cha bards), die easily, very feat tight.

I could be wrong, because I have only tested bard on PGCC and only one of my friends has bard.

This thread is about their access to all skills, and the repercussion of that change. Dipping class is a verifiable way to promote healthy balance. When considering an ability, the power mechanics on arelith are most significantly effected in this order: class > stat > feat > skillpoints.

When you force a multiclass you're forcing the most impactful change on a build, and that makes it an effective balancing tool.