Arelith

I'm not sure if this is an arelith specific change, or a general nwn thing, but I can't find any reference to it on nwnwiki or any other sources.

I've recently started a paladin for the first time in a long time, and just started using Deafening Clang. This spell in Arelith adds a Sonic damage effect to the weapon you buff it with, and has a deafen effect that can be resisted with a fortitude saving throw.

The issue is that the deafen effect makes the target immune to sonic damage. In a way, Deafening Clang makes prospective targets immune to its own damage.

This feels oddly anti-synergistic and likely unintentional.

Screenshot below, notice how the second hit's sonic damage is fully shrugged off through Damage Immunity.

Better stop gearing your fort save so one day you'll be immune to deafening clang! (but not implosion)

Being deafened has other side-effects that makes it a pretty good status effect to put on casters. Mostly, spells with verbal components tend not to work right. So really, what's happening is, you win either way. Either you do extra damage, or you maybe stop a caster from casting some annoying spells at you.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Deaf

Feel free to correct me if deaf works differently on arelith than vanilla, but otherwise that's my take on it.

Yeah that makes no sense at all. Sonic is clearly listed, on several instances, to be caused by vibrations of particles. https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_damage
A deafened target will still get damaged by sonic damage due to this.

Also the nwnlexicon (not sure how much this is used or in effect on arelith) states that the "EffectDeaf()" specifically does not cause immunity to sonic damage or other similar things.

(https://nwnlexicon.com/index.php?title=EffectDeaf)

So it's a bit weird either way.


Edit: On that note, this might be more of a Bug then Feedback.

Kenji wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:29 am Better stop gearing your fort save so one day you'll be immune to deafening clang! (but not implosion)

I'm guessing this is your way of sarcastically saying "this is irrelevant for high end gameplay therefore I don't care about it", which is fair, but its still weird mechanically.

Paint wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:37 am Feel free to correct me if deaf works differently on arelith than vanilla, but otherwise that's my take on it.

The main difference is that the deafened condition should not make one immune to sonic damage. It does not in any edition of nwn, in core 3.5, or in dnd spinoffs like pathfinder. Sonic damage is 'vibration' damage, the reverberating, bone-shattering kind.

I can only guess this is due to a recent change, maybe revolving around the dirgesinger? I can't find anything on the updates which is why I thought to feedback it as it may be an unintended interaction.

I know very well deafen plops 20% ASF on targets, which is useful.. on enemy arcane casters. A fraction of the pve targets out there.

Deafness protecting you from sonic damage is an odd gimmick that doesn't belong. It doesn't work in tabletop RAW, and (Edit:> AFAIK, but I'm reading conflicting sources now) it doesn't shouldn't work that way in vanilla NWN.

Being deaf is only supposed to protect you from magical effects like suggestion or charm person, or a bard's music, because the magic is affected by your ability to perceive the sounds communicated to you. A sound burst, thunderclap, shout, or even a clang spell should still be wrecking you whether you can hear them or not.

Silence, on the other hand, stops the sounds from happening at all. Creatures inside the range of a silence spell should be immune to sonic damage and all the other the other things being assigned to deafened here.

I'm pretty sure this has always been a thing in NWN where deafened creatures are immune to sonic, I agree it doesn't make sense, but it's always been, as far as I'm aware.

Easy enough to test. I fired up the core NWN campaign (Hordes of the Underdark Chapter 1), picked the default paladin Drax.

First opportunity I got, I stabbed a Duergar with a dagger buffed with Deafening Clang.



As you can see, despite him failing a fort save and becoming deafened, my subsequent (crit) attack still dealt sonic damage as it should.

Deafen making people immune to sonic damage is *not* core NWN behaviour.

EDIT: Important to note, this was a genuine second flurry attack. Drax was not hasted and only had 3 APR due to being level 15.

This was a balance consideration when updating the ability to turns/level for paladins.
+7 flat damage would otherwise be vastly superior to a 1d8 temporary essence, after all.

I wouldn't mind making the spell turns/lvl for everyone that can cast it, removing the sonic immunity attached to the deafen effect (or even the deafen effect itself) and lowering the damage to 1d8 though.

I kinda question the balance consideration here. Per Kenji's comment, at high level a DC 15 fort save won't stick on anyone unless they roll a 1. Deafening Clang will be doing 7 damage a *lot*, except when you roll that 'jackpot' of it not longer working. At present it really only hurts low to mid levels.

But honestly, I was only feedbacking the odd behaviour in case it was something unintended, since it seems to be completely undocumented after searching through update threads and the wiki. I'm happy for things to stay as they are or to change as mentioned above.

So.... how can one deafen themselves I wonder...

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:26 pm So.... how can one deafen themselves I wonder...

Summon Undead in front of a Paladin :)

Wax Earplugs new meta.

New major award: deaf character.
-50 listen applied
+10 spot applied
is deaf
auto-silent 3 applied
immune to a bunch of shite like bard/curse song and all sonic damage.
has animal language

ok sorry I'll stop.

Kalopsia wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:37 pm This was a balance consideration when updating the ability to turns/level for paladins.
+7 flat damage would otherwise be vastly superior to a 1d8 temporary essence, after all.

I wouldn't mind making the spell turns/lvl for everyone that can cast it, removing the sonic immunity attached to the deafen effect (or even the deafen effect itself) and lowering the damage to 1d8 though.

1: Could these sonic immunities be transferred to creatures inside the AoE of a (wandable, scrollable, potionable) silence spell, rather than the deafness effect?
2: While we're at it, would you be willing to take a look at the deafness function and see if you can make the spell failure chance apply to all spells with verbal components, rather than making it a flat 20% Arcane(only) spell failure that can be ignored by divine casters, and also with Still spell rather than silent spell?

Kalopsia wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:37 pm This was a balance consideration when updating the ability to turns/level for paladins.
+7 flat damage would otherwise be vastly superior to a 1d8 temporary essence, after all.

I wouldn't mind making the spell turns/lvl for everyone that can cast it, removing the sonic immunity attached to the deafen effect (or even the deafen effect itself) and lowering the damage to 1d8 though.

As this benefits me by decimating my essence costs and bullies paladins, I'm totally fine with a change like that.

Kalopsia wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:37 pm This was a balance consideration when updating the ability to turns/level for paladins.
+7 flat damage would otherwise be vastly superior to a 1d8 temporary essence, after all.

I wouldn't mind making the spell turns/lvl for everyone that can cast it, removing the sonic immunity attached to the deafen effect (or even the deafen effect itself) and lowering the damage to 1d8 though.

That would be amazing.

Playing a FS, I used this spell exactly once. Realized it deleted my temp essence and never touched it again.

If it was turns per level, I would work as an alternative to a temp essence.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:26 pm So.... how can one deafen themselves I wonder...

This is honestly what I was thinking. Immune to sonic, immune to cursesong which is powerful now, and most people done gear listen anyways. If your not a caster and don't have a bard in your party, this is a no brainer.

Archnon wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:15 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:26 pm So.... how can one deafen themselves I wonder...

This is honestly what I was thinking. Immune to sonic, immune to cursesong which is powerful now, and most people done gear listen anyways. If your not a caster and don't have a bard in your party, this is a no brainer.

Makes you wonder if there's some piece of lore where warriors would deafen themselves before battle to make themselves more resistant to enemy wardrummers and warcr-- okay I'll seriously stop now.

Purely in the interest of having a bit of fun with this, I give you the one, the only...


The deaf door.

Distant Relation wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:08 pm Purely in the interest of having a bit of fun with this, I give you the one, the only...


The deaf door.

What happens when you make doors from corn ... they are all ears!

Archnon wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:15 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:26 pm So.... how can one deafen themselves I wonder...

This is honestly what I was thinking. Immune to sonic, immune to cursesong which is powerful now, and most people done gear listen anyways. If your not a caster and don't have a bard in your party, this is a no brainer.

Would the silence spell achieve this if you cast it on yourself?

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:22 pm

Archnon wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:15 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:26 pm So.... how can one deafen themselves I wonder...

This is honestly what I was thinking. Immune to sonic, immune to cursesong which is powerful now, and most people done gear listen anyways. If your not a caster and don't have a bard in your party, this is a no brainer.

Would the silence spell achieve this if you cast it on yourself?

You and everyone within the aura is basically floating in vacuum. afaik, no sonic damage, no songs, no verbal components. However, do keep in mind that lesser dispel from a wand (or casted since it does not have verbal component) on the ground is guaranteed to remove the aura.