Arelith

So, True Frost has always been one of my favorite classes to play, and I understand that my opinions will not be shared by everyone, and that I will probably be a but bias, but these are just my thought on the class and how it stacks up to other classes. To be clear, I'm not trying to imply that TF is underpowered, in fact, in the right situations I think TF can be extremely overpowered. I just feel that there is no reason to play TF compered to, say, warlock.

As I see it, the greatest strength of the TF is having unlimited access to the most damaging arcane spells that can be selected, as well as having unlimited use of powerful crowd control spells such as the Bigsby hand line. However, the cost of this, losing all access to any defensive or utility spells (such as dispels) just feels... bad compared to other caster classes.

The most obvious example would be a blaster warlock. Similar damage per round from blasts, ignoring concealment, and with a fairly high ab. Permanent haste, solid defensive/utility spells, and a wide selection of inficast spells. Sure, a TF could probably outdamage a warlock per round, assuming every circumstance was just perfect, but even in a pve duo, all it takes is one mob casting Spell resistance, and about half you spells become ineffective. Hell, if a TF doesn't want to be chugging haste bottles every thirty seconds, they have to invest three epic feats and lose almost any defensive capabilities they have available.

I get this comes off as rant saying either "buff TF" or "nerf warlock" but that's really not how it's intended. I'm just curious if anyone else experiences some confusion that TF gets its bonuses at the cost of huge penalties, while a class like warlock seems to get everything a caster could want, without a major penalty. Well except for being virtually persona non grata on Surface lol.

Oh, also I love the changes to quicken spell, makes leveling waaay nicer
Thanks for reading!

Additional question: Why was True Flame renamed to True Frost? I can't see anything different about it.

Thoughts: this class should probably just go the way of the Kensai for being more trouble to fix/balance than it's worth.

More thoughts: Sorcerer is incredibly dated and practically still a boring vanilla class. Any love meant for TF should instead go to Sorcerer with paths/bloodlines similar to Kalopsia's Warlock and Paladin options to spice it up and specialize them.

ViggoEvan wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:00 am So, True Frost has always been one of my favorite classes to play, and I understand that my opinions will not be shared by everyone, and that I will probably be a but bias, but these are just my thought on the class and how it stacks up to other classes. To be clear, I'm not trying to imply that TF is underpowered, in fact, in the right situations I think TF can be extremely overpowered. I just feel that there is no reason to play TF compered to, say, warlock.

As I see it, the greatest strength of the TF is having unlimited access to the most damaging arcane spells that can be selected, as well as having unlimited use of powerful crowd control spells such as the Bigsby hand line. However, the cost of this, losing all access to any defensive or utility spells (such as dispels) just feels... bad compared to other caster classes.

The most obvious example would be a blaster warlock. Similar damage per round from blasts, ignoring concealment, and with a fairly high ab. Permanent haste, solid defensive/utility spells, and a wide selection of inficast spells. Sure, a TF could probably outdamage a warlock per round, assuming every circumstance was just perfect, but even in a pve duo, all it takes is one mob casting Spell resistance, and about half you spells become ineffective. Hell, if a TF doesn't want to be chugging haste bottles every thirty seconds, they have to invest three epic feats and lose almost any defensive capabilities they have available.

I get this comes off as rant saying either "buff TF" or "nerf warlock" but that's really not how it's intended. I'm just curious if anyone else experiences some confusion that TF gets its bonuses at the cost of huge penalties, while a class like warlock seems to get everything a caster could want, without a major penalty. Well except for being virtually persona non grata on Surface lol.

Oh, also I love the changes to quicken spell, makes leveling waaay nicer
Thanks for reading!

Think of it this way:
True Frost served its purpose of showcasing that infinicast for certain spells is okay. Over the years, those spells and their infinicast versions are incorporated into various other classes, albeit in different forms and sometimes with a cooldown rather than relying on the Vancian system from which they derived.

These new infinicast spells have become a great booster for QoL and RP tools while not affecting the longstanding PvP Meta.

Here are three main things we learned from True Frost in general:

1. Infinicast unsavable damage spell is okay if it dealt no more than 120dmg per round - IGMS that's counterable by GSF: Abjuration and Shield spell or Ice Storm with no save but has friendly fire
2. Infinicast massive damage spell is okay if there are ways to lower it or neglect it altogether - Meteor Swarm or Chain Lightning with no friendly fire reduced by ref save (no dmg by evasion)
3. Infinicast CC spells with plenty of saves to neglect the CC effects, or short duration is okay- Bigby's with the ref and fort saves or Great Thunder Clap that fishes all three saves, but have a very short duration CC

Note that for #3, one should keep in mind that given how binary those types of spells can make an encounter become depending on how many saves the target has, CC infinicasts should and will always come with some form of cooldown for any other classes with access to them.

We do have something very exciting following True Frost's legacy, but I believe it's up to Amnesy to tell everyone what he has been working on!

Skibbles wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:00 am Additional question: Why was True Flame renamed to True Frost? I can't see anything different about it.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=36131&start=25#p284050

Oooh interesting. I had no idea 'True Flame' had a lore history like that. Neat!

It is a very interesting class, I want to give it a go really, but the spell components are putting me off. Just imagine how many I would burn per adventure.....

My True Lightning character is currently shelved, but I very much enjoyed playing her, because it's a unique approach to an offensive spellcaster. And also, playing a True Acid encourages you to form relationships with other characters, so that you can venture out with others.

You *can* solo with a True Magic, sure. But if you're mechanically savvy, you can solo with anything.

The point of a True Thunder is that the strengths and weaknesses are very much defined from the get-go, and every True Sonic player should know what they're getting into.

And before you say I'm roleplaying my True Evoker wrong, I recommend you read the post Kenji linked =)

xf1313 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:21 am It is a very interesting class, I want to give it a go really, but the spell components are putting me off. Just imagine how many I would burn per adventure.....

I've played a TF for a while now (been at level cap for several months) and have literally never had to use a single spell component. Ever. And I've not gotten complaints about lack of damage. Granted, I played with a gear/build setup that was very, very, VERY oriented around working in a group, and there were some times when I'd go weeks without an adventure because I couldn't find a party. I honestly don't know what I'd do if I had to solo a TF.

It's definitely not a playstyle for everyone, but I've loved it.

People continually associated the class with some sort of flame-based concept due to the name. To hammer the point in that that wasn't the intent with "True Flame" they renamed it to its polar opposite.

The path was never objectively good. It's always served as a gimmicky concept. A potentially stronger one than warlock, but gimmick nonetheless.

The difference between it and kensai is that kensai was absolutely busted with its free Haste (then later and now free APR) even with its drawbacks. TF is also a path itself, but before the modern day paths existed as they did (i.e. feats).

Good Character wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:48 am People continually associated the class with some sort of flame-based concept due to the name. To hammer the point in that that wasn't the intent with "True Flame" they renamed it to its polar opposite.

The path was never objectively good. It's always served as a gimmicky concept. A potentially stronger one than warlock, but gimmick nonetheless.

The difference between it and kensai is that kensai was absolutely busted with its free Haste (then later and now free APR) even with its drawbacks. TF is also a path itself, but before the modern day paths existed as they did (i.e. feats).

True Flames, Flamebornes, Sparkborne, Path of the True Frost, whatever you call it, have one niche that they excel at more than any other caster, and that's party play. You can't buff anyone, but slap one -guard on you with decent AC and some heals, and you are free to sit behind them and obliterate the enemy. Add a dedicated healer to the guard, who probably also can actually buff, and now you just need a rogue to complete the traditional party.

A traditional mage sits back, summons, and hastes. A True flame sits behind a guard instead of a summon, and spams damage. In a solo capacity, their toolkit includes just enough tricks and summon substitutes to corral and manipulate enemy aggro so that you can get away with zero damage in almost every fight if you're on top of your game and patient. The play-style is enjoyable and fun in a way I haven't found with any other class, and it was enough to take me off my epic wizard. Please, for the love of everything, don't disappear this path into Kensai land.

The path may not be 'optimal' but it's fun to play for people who aren't concerned with only that. I don't see a convincing reason to get rid of it unless it objectively prevents other nice things from occurring.

Amateur Hour wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:33 am

xf1313 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:21 am It is a very interesting class, I want to give it a go really, but the spell components are putting me off. Just imagine how many I would burn per adventure.....

I've played a TF for a while now (been at level cap for several months) and have literally never had to use a single spell component. Ever. And I've not gotten complaints about lack of damage. Granted, I played with a gear/build setup that was very, very, VERY oriented around working in a group, and there were some times when I'd go weeks without an adventure because I couldn't find a party. I honestly don't know what I'd do if I had to solo a TF.

It's definitely not a playstyle for everyone, but I've loved it.

Agreed. When you're playing a true flame, most of your PvE content is easily managed with maximized, empowered, and quickened 5th and 6th level spells, and the occasional 4th level as well. Ice Storm (saveless AoE), Missile Storms (Focused damage burst), firebrand (large-scale reflex aoe), chain lightning (same, different type, higher damage cap for first target), forceful hand. Most of your encounters can be resolved with strategic (or liberal) applications of these spells with little strain by the party (or even solo; remember, you can refresh that shelgarn's blade as often as you need to, so it doesn't really matter if it drops in a fight as long as everything is grouped up for death).

Spell components are for two things - showing off, and pulling the party's bacon out of the fire.

with quicken metamagic now only being a plus 1. True flames builds are even opened up more to compete with other more well rounded infini casters.

Kenji wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:11 am We do have something very exciting following True Frost's legacy, but I believe it's up to Amnesy to tell everyone what he has been working on![/color]

I had so much fun with TF for a myriad of reasons - and I hated it for some as well. The class is not ideal, aged a little given other developments, punishing, rewarding, good in proper hands, and super annoying when facing certain adversaries.

There is something coming on the horizon, and I hope you will enjoy it.
You will learn the details from the announcements SoonTM (See announcements).

Regarding TF: I'd personally prefer if these were just grandfathered in.

Its not to say I wouldn't like to play the new class, however I do like my TF also and these do feel like totally different classes to me.

Scylon wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:14 am Regarding TF: I'd personally prefer if these were just grandfathered in.

Its not to say I wouldn't like to play the new class, however I do like my TF also and these do feel like totally different classes to me.

Yeah this looks like great ground work for a psinkics class which is not true flame.

We are tweaking still but psionics in 3.x were more burst and less sustain than a traditional high lvl caster.

Well, I enjoyed playing a caster who was actually frail and needed protection. If the issue is missle spams, maybe that spell as a whole needs to be looked at. The reason it is so popular is because it is guaranteed damage. Anything with a save on it is generally not worth a spell slot.

Scylon wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:14 am Regarding TF: I'd personally prefer if these were just grandfathered in.

Its not to say I wouldn't like to play the new class, however I do like my TF also and these do feel like totally different classes to me.

Please. Pretty please, this, instead of...

Aniel wrote: True Frost - Path decommission
The path will be soon disabled for new characters, while the existing characters will be migrated to a new class.

You can even take the potions away again, just don't take my unlimited boom.

While I'm really, really excited for the new Invoker class and paths, I have to say that I also will miss Path of the TF. It's uniquely amazing, and it plays very differently from an Invoker.

I hope the team will consider grandfathering the path for TF Sorcerers. (I second the sentiment about taking potions away. Whatever it takes to keep our TF).

I think I can rely to the feeling of loss for the players who had a TF and see them disappear ...

I mean, I have never played one, but it was one these paths I had my eyes on, and would have loved to be able to try at some point.

I must say the new classes for Evoker look very interesting, and I'm very glad to see them appear.

But they seem different enough from TF to make me wonder if to just let both co-exist as options wouldn't be better than have the new ones replace the old?

In any case, thanks for all the work invested in this game!