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Word of Faith
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:20 pm
by Lacki
To me, Word of Faith seems a little powerful for a 7th-level spell, being able to do so many things while ignoring inconvenient things like saves. To recap what it does without a save for those who don't know: it insta-kills summons and blinds all enemies in an AOE. Admittedly, however, it does respect spell resistance.
Speaking from a Blackguard's perspective, being able to instantly gut my summon - which is half the reason for my class' existence - without a save is nuts. All you have to do is beat my outsider's SR, and then /poof/, there they go, and you don't even need to chew through their HP! Fail the SR check? Just cast another, it's a seventh-level spell, so you've got plenty of slots. Alternatively, Gate in a Deva and have her do it for you while simultaneously smacking the hell out of the enemy!
On top of all that, Word of Faith goes one step further and guts my melee - the other reason for my class' existence - by blinding me. Even if I cast Remove Blindness, I've just taken up a whole round of combat and thus given up all my other options for buffing... and in that round, the guy who casted it has just cast his Quickened buff spells (or dispelled my buffs) and is ready to either kite me until they can drop another Word of Faith or otherwise beat me to death with their summon... who can also cast Word of Faith, if they summon a deva.
Oh, and I'm playing a Blackguard who can't sneak attack anymore because I have no one to flank with. That's kind of self-explanatory, but I thought it bore repeating!
So, to sum:
You are a Blackguard. You engage a caster with your summon out.
Caster casts a quickened buff/debuff then casts Word of Faith.
Summon dies.
You spend nine seconds doing nothing or casting a single buff.
The caster either casts his buffs, debuffs you, or summons a Gate (or does two of these if he has Quicken)
You lose the buff race and die.
Maybe it's because I'm new to the game and so I don't understand the subtle intricacies of balance (and so I would appreciate someone explaining to me why Word of Faith is the way it is), but... I'm just not sure what the counter is. Beating the enemy before they can cast? Breaching them? Just not fighting at all?
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:32 pm
by Mattamue
WoF is fine. There needs to be counterplay to summons and WoF is one of those things. If they are using WoF then you have to choose how to react to that with your own counterplay.
Each counterplay option you choose has a counterplay the other player can choose, so don't get caught up in the theory crafting of what can best what, but think in the situation what your options are and try them. There are counterplay options to WoF.
One of the new sequencers allows you to buff with spell resistance as a pre-emptive defense. If you get hit with the blind don't stand there for 9s, chug a remove blind potion then a ts and charge and kd. There's a cool down on the blind now so they can't just WoF blind again. Or just haste and ts pot and run where they were and count on being able to splat them when blind wears off. Or, pre-emptively read a true seeing scroll if you know they like to WoF, last I knew the true seeing effect (even though it is short) made you immune to WoF blind while it is active. Or haste pot and just run in the other direction if the summon fails the sr, then re-summon come back, and only stick around if the summon resists the next WoF. Are they WoFing then summoning a deva? Get a witchunter cloak and use dismissal right away while blind to make sure that if you don't have a summon then no one should.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:20 pm
by Aren
Lacki wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:20 pm
To me, Word of Faith seems a little powerful for a 7th-level spell, being able to do so many things while ignoring inconvenient things like saves. To recap what it does without a save for those who don't know: it insta-kills summons and blinds all enemies in an AOE. Admittedly, however, it does respect spell resistance.
Speaking from a Blackguard's perspective, being able to instantly gut my summon - which is half the reason for my class' existence - without a save is nuts. All you have to do is beat my outsider's SR, and then /poof/, there they go, and you don't even need to chew through their HP! Fail the SR check? Just cast another, it's a seventh-level spell, so you've got plenty of slots. Alternatively, Gate in a Deva and have her do it for you while simultaneously smacking the hell out of the enemy!
On top of all that, Word of Faith goes one step further and guts my melee - the other reason for my class' existence - by blinding me. Even if I cast Remove Blindness, I've just taken up a whole round of combat and thus given up all my other options for buffing... and in that round, the guy who casted it has just cast his Quickened buff spells (or dispelled my buffs) and is ready to either kite me until they can drop another Word of Faith or otherwise beat me to death with their summon... who can also cast Word of Faith, if they summon a deva.
Oh, and I'm playing a Blackguard who can't sneak attack anymore because I have no one to flank with. That's kind of self-explanatory, but I thought it bore repeating!
So, to sum:
You are a Blackguard. You engage a caster with your summon out.
Caster casts a quickened buff/debuff then casts Word of Faith.
Summon dies.
You spend nine seconds doing nothing or casting a single buff.
The caster either casts his buffs, debuffs you, or summons a Gate (or does two of these if he has Quicken)
You lose the buff race and die.
Maybe it's because I'm new to the game and so I don't understand the subtle intricacies of balance (and so I would appreciate someone explaining to me why Word of Faith is the way it is), but... I'm just not sure what the counter is. Beating the enemy before they can cast? Breaching them? Just not fighting at all?
Word of faith is fine.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:37 pm
by Lacki
Mattamue wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:32 pm
WoF is fine. There needs to be counterplay to summons and WoF is one of those things. If they are using WoF then you have to choose how to react to that with your own counterplay.
Each counterplay option you choose has a counterplay the other player can choose, so don't get caught up in the theory crafting of what can best what, but think in the situation what your options are and try them. There are counterplay options to WoF.
One of the new sequencers allows you to buff with spell resistance as a pre-emptive defense. If you get hit with the blind don't stand there for 9s, chug a remove blind potion then a ts and charge and kd. There's a cool down on the blind now so they can't just WoF blind again. Or just haste and ts pot and run where they were and count on being able to splat them when blind wears off. Or, pre-emptively read a true seeing scroll if you know they like to WoF, last I knew the true seeing effect (even though it is short) made you immune to WoF blind while it is active. Or haste pot and just run in the other direction if the summon fails the sr, then re-summon come back, and only stick around if the summon resists the next WoF. Are they WoFing then summoning a deva? Get a witchunter cloak and use dismissal right away while blind to make sure that if you don't have a summon then no one should.
Thank you for the detailed explanation rather than casual and flippant dismissal - I'll apply your advice to my next encounters, and I'll try to swallow my pride and accept that running is a viable strategy. Maybe I just don't do so well against clerics, and that's okay. However, I'd like to address two things.
First, my Summon Fiend has a 6 minute cooldown once the fiend is dead, so I can't just summon them again unless I successfully flee, rest up, rebuff, and come back... or unless I wait six excruciating minutes for the cooldown to come back, during which time I'm vulnerable regardless if they decide to chase (or they could just leave). They're also not immune to Word of Faith or other such dismissals like a Shadowdancer's Shadow is despite being my class' primary feature.
Second, telling me to get the Witchhunter's Cloak to replace my current back slot is a fair enough proposition, given the protection it gives and the spell attached to it, but it:
1. Only has two uses of Dismissal per rest, which is worse than Word of Faith because of its save component on top of SR. Even if the chance to resist or save against Dismissal is low, there's still two chances for it to survive instead of one.
2. Would replace my current cloak or otherwise take up a big space in my inventory so that I can save for when I need it.
Meanwhile, a high level caster can bust out several Gates before needing to rest - some Clerics have their entire 9th-level spellbook slotted with Gates.
What do you think is the solution to the above two issues?
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:11 pm
by Mattamue
Lacki wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:37 pm
I'll try to swallow my pride and accept that running is a viable strategy.
Good question for your character to decide. Maybe they would rather die than run, or running is something they're ashamed of and would lead to some rp threatening people not to talk about it, or a character moment.
Lacki wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:37 pm
First, my Summon Fiend has a 6 minute cooldown... or unless I wait six excruciating minutes for the cooldown to come back, during which time I'm vulnerable regardless if they decide to chase (or they could just leave).
Portal lens means you can essentially run as far away as you want if you can get out of combat long enough to be able to use it. Then yes, far enough away that 6 minutes won't matter. I've seen some people says it's too easy to run, but I like that you can pull the rip cord.
Lacki wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:37 pm
They're also not immune to Word of Faith or other such dismissals like a Shadowdancer's Shadow is despite being my class' primary feature.
Not sure what you mean about shadow dancer here. Can't really compare shadow dancer summon to blackguard because of synergy like the might/shield and epic caster, and different base stats. Sometimes other classes have other stuff and that's fine. Otherwise, yes, get 50 lore and then you can WoF the clerics too. That's one of the reasons WoF is fine is because scroll DCs are trash and there needs to be a scroll solution for mundanes to use against summons that doesn't have a save.
Lacki wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:37 pm
1. Only has two uses of Dismissal per rest
Nothing stopping you from getting a half dozen of them
Lacki wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:37 pm
which is worse than Word of Faith because of its save component on top of SR.
There's a saveless component of dismissal that stops new summons. That's what you use it for, not for the chance to dismiss . When dismissal is cast it stops all summons (non-undead) from being summoned in the area for 60s. So unless the cleric already has their deva out, if you cast dismissal it'll stop them from summoning it. It'll stop everything for a minute.
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Gate see the table and details there. Lots to read.
Lacki wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:37 pm
2. Would replace my current cloak.
Just put your cloak back on after you use the dismissal. AC from div shield is dynamic I think? It should just come back if you have cha on cloak. Or just get enough lore to use a scroll and skip the eq swapping entirely. Easily carry around 100s of scrolls.
Lacki wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:37 pm
Meanwhile, a high level caster can bust out several Gates before needing to rest - some Clerics have their entire 9th-level spellbook slotted with Gates.
Didn't matter how many gates. They can't summon them into a summon locked area where dismissal was cast.
Hope that helps. I'm no master pvper and others might have more solutions or optimal counterplay.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:00 pm
by Lacki
Mattamue wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:11 pm
Hope that helps. I'm no master pvper and others might have more solutions or optimal counterplay.
It helps a lot, thank you for your thoughtful response.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:03 pm
by MissEvelyn
Lots of good advice above.
Small clarification: Dismissal stops summons from reappearing for 30 seconds, while Banishment will do it for 60 seconds.
This excludes animated undead, according to the wiki, but I'm not actually sure if that works or not.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:07 am
by Hazard
MissEvelyn wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:03 pm
Lots of good advice above.
Small clarification: Dismissal stops summons from reappearing for 30 seconds, while Banishment will do it for 60 seconds.
This excludes animated undead, according to the wiki, but I'm not actually sure if that works or not.
I don't think it stops undead, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Because they aren't 'summoned' they are animated.
I could be wrong.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:28 am
by Skibbles
I don't like word of faith because it's just another skill/item tax like discipline. Yawn.
Way too much packed into a single spell - the ultimate catch all for a large amount of situations and perfect for stomping newbies that haven't yet learned the painful lesson that remove blindness potions must be on F1 until the end of time.
The other thing I don't like is, ironically, that the 'tell' of the spell is weirdly out of time with its effect. I often end up using the potion before the blindness takes hold and goofy buggy stuff happens as a result. Would be nice if the user got a single round of blindness immunity after drinking one.
Otherwise I don't really mind that pvp is sort of like a strobe light, but it is so tiresome to see such ubiquitous use of this spell in every single encounter.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:37 am
by Watchful Glare
Skibbles wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:28 am
I don't like word of faith because it's just another skill/item tax like discipline. Yawn.
Way too much packed into a single spell - the ultimate catch all for a large amount of situations and perfect for stomping newbies that haven't yet learned the painful lesson that remove blindness potions must be on F1 until the end of time.
The other thing I don't like is, ironically, that the 'tell' of the spell is weirdly out of time with its effect. I often end up using the potion before the blindness takes hold and goofy buggy stuff happens as a result. Would be nice if the user got a single round of blindness immunity after drinking one.
Otherwise I don't really mind that pvp is sort of like a strobe light, but it is so tiresome to see such ubiquitous use of this spell in every single encounter.
Good ideas from Skibbles, as usual.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:04 am
by -XXX-
Hazard wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:07 am
MissEvelyn wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:03 pm
Lots of good advice above.
Small clarification: Dismissal stops summons from reappearing for 30 seconds, while Banishment will do it for 60 seconds.
This excludes animated undead, according to the wiki, but I'm not actually sure if that works or not.
I don't think it stops undead, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Because they aren't 'summoned' they are animated.
I could be wrong.
It works the way described in the wiki - a necromancer won't care about a summon warding effect.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:27 pm
by Tikin
That's a very useful thread!! So informative! Just love it.
Thanks Matamue, players like you are really helpful!
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:20 am
by malcolm_mountainslayer
IMO we need more spells like word of faith where it does useful stuff still on passed saved.
there are lower level spells that do this too:
NEB
the various cloud spells
avascular mass is still potent on passed safe.
Now with the new sequencers, blackgaurds can just add spell resistance to their summons to help block word of faith.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:26 am
by MissEvelyn
-XXX- wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:04 am
Hazard wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:07 am
MissEvelyn wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:03 pm
Lots of good advice above.
Small clarification: Dismissal stops summons from reappearing for 30 seconds, while Banishment will do it for 60 seconds.
This excludes animated undead, according to the wiki, but I'm not actually sure if that works or not.
I don't think it stops undead, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Because they aren't 'summoned' they are animated.
I could be wrong.
It works the way described in the wiki - a necromancer won't care about a summon warding effect.
Thanks for the clarification!
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:24 pm
by RedGiant
Thank you for a thread detailing how fragile summons were even pre-nerf and how sequencing SR is the only choice you can logically make if you even suspect a hint of PvP. (And even this buys you about 1/2 a round against a competent foe.)
All is proceeding as predicted. I continue to maintain this is a problem. And, as detailed elsewhere, do not currently recommend playing a summoner.
Some might think this is hyperbole or theater, but you've actually nailed it.
Furthermore, counter play isn't really counter play when only half of the equation is repeatable.
Re: Word of Faith
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:56 pm
by -XXX-
The WoF dynamic has always been there and I don't think that the conduit summons were ever intended as a PvP strategy.
Currently the missing piece of the puzzle is a viable EDK.
