Invoker: The review.
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:43 am
Feedback on Invoker:
This feedback post is almost purely mechanical in nature. First, I will be looking at Invoker as class. Next I will be looking at Hemomancer and Elementalist comparatively. For reference, I have played both paths to endgame on live servers; level 30 (Hemomancer) and level 28 (Elementalist) respectively. I mostly levelled these classes solo, since it gives me the best impression of what the class can do on its own. I will also preface this feedback post with transparency: I am currently playing a (second) Hemomancer as my main character, but I will endeavour to be as honest and unbiased with my feedback as I can.
Invoker generally:
As a class, Invoker in general feels amazingly fun to play. So a big thank you to Amnesy for a breath of fresh air on this old server. Invoker does not suffer from the pain (some would say) of “summon and buff” gameplay, that most other casters have to deal with. It is truly a blaster class, and one that can be insanely potent in the right hands.
From a design standpoint, I believe it to be a huge positive, that Invoker cannot benefit from divine dipping and that dodge ac bonuses are lost upon monk dipping. Not gaining anything from divine dipping, means that invokers in general are weak to spells that don't respect spellcraft, and even with 56-60 AC are still in range of a good true strike KD. All in all, very good design choices, that encourages a more diverse pool of valid class dips.
Overall, I like the focus pool system and I think it could be cool baseline for future classes. Psion anyone? : )
Though it is worth considering, how the system affects overall class balance, because it effectively makes Invoker an infinite spells per day casting class. While warlock also has some infinite spell casting, many of the more “powerful” spells, are locked behind cooldowns (3 minutes) or higher spell slots that are finite in number. The infinite casting nature of Invoker does make it have more of an “MMO” feel to it than other casters, which could be considered “disruptive for the setting” by some players. While I acknowledge that caster Warlocks weren’t really a thing before the introduction of Invoker, the existence of Invoker now also means that you would pick Invoker over Warlock any day, if you were going to build a caster. Epic Spell Foci, 9th level spells and access to epic spells, makes Invoker blow non-eldritch blast Warlocks out of the water. Right now, you can play a hemomancer with 500-600+ HP, 58 AC, approximately 40 in all saves (with spellcraft and endgame gearing), 64 discipline, infinite casting with a somewhat limited spell kit, at a very potent DC (40-42 for 9th level spells).
Invokers are built upon the sorcerer kit, meaning that their spell picks matter greatly and you must make sure to have something to suit every situation. However, even with the few spells they get access to they are currently, when taking everything into account, the most potent casters in the game. Especially if you know how to play a regular sorcerer.
Invoker is a full caster and as such, gets access to dweomercrafting 2 by the time it hits 30. Most other full casters get some sort of crafting feat that allows them to hit dweomercrafting 3. Invoker do not get this and must spend 30 skill points to reach 30 craft mastery or spend a feat. In my opinion this is fine, and I would keep it that way. Invokers already get a lot; they need to have some downsides.
Invoker gets no bonus languages. I mentioned this to Amnesy and they said that if elemental languages were added, Elementalist would eventually get that. No extra language for Hemomancer, though I think they could do with draconic as a base language. (Transparency: My own character would gain nothing from this as they get Draconic for free from other sources).
Path feedback:
In this section I will be comparing the current two Invoker paths available, and discuss overall class mechanics, focus generation, signature spells and overall power of the classes.
Class mechanics:
Elementalist:
Elmentalist chooses its element path at an early level, and gains various bonuses as the elementalist increases in power. Some of these are good, and some of them are negligible. Earth and Air are solid, where Air gets more AC and 50% ranged concealment, but earth gets an equivalent to ESKF: Disc for free. Fire gets unisaves, but their deflection AC does not stack with epic mage armor. Water gets regeneration and free eskf: sail, but their natural AC bonus, does not stack with epic mage armor. Earth elementalist is a prime contender for a pure 30 elementalist build, that can cast without cost, and still hit mid 60’s discipline.
Elemental overcharge seems pretty neat, especially if you’re in a huge fight and you have some support to make sure you don’t explode yourself via feedback damage. The damage isn’t too bad, unless you spam the same spell consecutively. It’s a cool ability on a long cooldown, but the fact that it burns your focus when you activate it, makes it a button I wouldn’t want to press unless I’m below 50% focus, especially when you are somewhat struggling for focus on Elementalist. More on this later.
Hemomancer:
Blood stacks and how they interact with Hemomancers signature spells, is a nifty and interesting mechanic. Blood stack generation is bad at lower levels, requiring you to self-harvest to 10 stacks before heading out into the wilds, to get your Red Harvest empowerment buff. At epic levels, you are practically swimming in blood stack points, meaning you're never without Red Harvest Empowerment.
Speaking of Empowerment: Hemomancer gets way too much from Empowerment currently, hands down. Dodge AC, Regen, Damage Immunity and Unisaves depending on cha-mod on top of temporary HP. It’s way too much. I would personally see unisaves and damage immunity gone. The AC and regen is more than enough. I also think that the overheal mechanic should be toned down significantly. It’s too much. Right now, we’re looking at 150+ HP on top of base HP. That’s well above 600 HP on an 18 con Hemomancer. It could easily be toned down to a 60HP max and still be good.
Focus generation:
Elementalist:
Having played Hemomancer before playing Elementalist, I can say with certainty that Elementalist takes much more micro-managing to effectively have infinite spellcasting. I was drinking alcohol and juggling my sobriety- and rest meter to keep going. Compared to Hemomancer, Elementalist is definitely worse off with regards to focus generation. I would suggest upping the focus gain on server ticks by 15 or 20 across the board, or adding some mechanic to pull focus from the surroundings. I found myself struggling floating focus, even if I did conserve my spell casting while also pulling 3-4 packs of monsters to maximize damage per focus points spent. However, keeping in mind that the items that are being developed for invoker are rumored to lower focus cost, the above suggestion may be too much.
Hemomancer:
When I was levelling my first Hemomancer, I was appalled by its focus generation at lower levels. This has since been fixed / smoothed out, and the fact that cantrips now count as an alternate spell and red harvest gives more focus than early iterations, effectively means that Hemomancer, if played right, has infinite spell casting as soon as they step foot on Arelith. Hemomancer focus generation is amazing right now, and quite possibly too good. It’s hard to say, as I am not sure what Amnesy had in mind when they designed it. I would suggest keeping the finisher aspect of Red Harvest, but tone down base gain a bit. Especially if class specific items are meant to lower focus cost.
As a level 27 hemomancer that was practically living in Avernus, I only needed to rest when my rest meter hit 0% or if I made excessive use of self-harvest (I rarely did). A foot note here: I think self-harvesting should lower your rest % by a significant amount. It was previously set 5% at level 20+, which I felt was fine. Currently it’s down to 1%. 1% is not enough in my opinion. Maybe increase the rest decrease as you continuously self-harvest?
Signature spells:
Elementalist:
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Elemental_Hammer
Elemental Hammer is a 5th level spell slot, that when empowered/maximized does 100+ magical damage (above a certain focus threshold), or 100+ elemental damage of your chosen elementalist path, on a failed save, in a fireball sized AoE – while also dazing. Damage is around 80 on a successful save. Both damage and daze effect are checked by will saves, so this spell effectively ignores evasion / improved evasion and it is also party friendly. At high level gameplay, this is effectively a spammable party friendly empowered delayed blast fireball with variable damage (magic, acid, cold, fire or lightning), that ignores evasion and also has a chance to CC. Its only downside is the short range.
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Elemental_Annihilation
Elemental Annihilation is a 9th level spell, that deals almost the same damage as Elemental Hammer. It’s a huge size AoE, that deals force damage above a certain threshold (70%), but otherwise deals elemental damage depending on your chosen path. On average this spell deals a 140 damage in a huge AoE, dazes at a DC 40-42, and ignores evasion due to checking will save. It can also be cast from very far away, making it very very potent in any sort of engagement. This spell is also party friendly and absolutely demolishes content if cast above 90% focus.
In conclusion: Elementalist signature spells are way too strong, mostly due to the fact they don’t respect the usual rules for evocation spells, in that they don’t check reflex and thus aren’t subject to evasion. The magic damage above a certain focus threshold, also seems way too strong – as this damage type cannot be mitigated.
Hemomancer:
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Massacre
Massacre is a 7th level spell, that deals a significant amount of single target bleed damage, on a failed fortitude save. DC of the spell is usually around 36-38, depending on Cha mod. If the target is at 25% health or lower, the spell is empowered and will deal 300+ish damage on a failed save, provided you have 10 stacks of blood, at level 27 Hemomancer. The damage is significantly lower without blood stacks to consume. If Massacre kills a target, creates blood rain that demoralizes and lowers saves of nearby creatures, fears if they are demoralized, fort check versus death if they are feared, making it akin to an AoE finger of death, with the right setup. It also becomes a free cast, 1 round after killing a target. It’s a very convoluted spell, baked with many cool interactions - but even with all these juicy cookies and clever mechanics, it is a button I hardly ever press. Since most monsters on Arelith have bloated fortitude saves due to high con mods, you’ll start seeing this spell being reliably saved against in most content at around epic levels – making it incredibly unreliable in what it’s supposed to do. It has a very interesting interaction with 10 stack Soul Shriek, in which Soul Shriek acts as a fear setup for the AoE death mechanic of massacre. It's a fun button to press when you can gather a bunch of lower level monsters, cast Soul Shriek and then press Massacre to instantly kill the lot, as long as the creatures have low fortitude saves. Incidentally, the fear part of Soul Shriek makes the enemies flee, so you can't really benefit much from the mechanic. As with soul shriek, this ability seems overtuned in its current iteration, and should likely be revisted. But I’ll leave that up for the developers to decide.
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Soul_Shriek
Soul Shriek is a 9th level spell, that deals an absolutely insane amount of damage, on a fortitude save vs half. Currently I’m seeing 270 entropy damage in a colossal AoE, when my enemies fail their save and I consume all my blood stacks. It also fears, which means it’s a nice and easy setup for the Massacre AoE mechanic. The damage is around 160 on a successful save, provided you have 10 blood stacks to consume, half of that if you don’t have blood stacks. Blood stacks are very easy to generate and you basically have 10 blood stacks every 3-4 rounds. This means that you can do hell-ball levels of entropy damage every 30 seconds, double that, if they fail the save. The DC is around 40-44 depending on Cha mod and available blood stacks. This spell hits like a truck if you have blood stacks, and it feels absolutely amazing to press - but it is objectively insanely overtuned in its current iteration. This spell needs a revisit and a down-tuning.
In conclusion: Hemomancer signature spells are both way too strong and need a nerf. I like that they interact they way they do, but something needs to be done about the damage – especially Soul Shriek.
Ending thoughts:
I cannot deny how fun both of the Invoker classes are to play. They are so fun, that I found myself levelling 4 invokers in a row, trying out different builds and strategies. I really like the classes Amnesy, and I hope you don't take the above as me steamrolling over your work, pointing out all the bad stuff. I just want for them to be more on par with other classes. Otherwise I suspect that we'll se a server consisting of 30% spellswords, 60% invokers and 10% other classes.
Because in their current iteration, also in part due to the nature of their signature spells, Invokers are objectively way too powerful. Currently, there is no way I would ever consider playing any other type of offensive caster. If Irongron was worried about summons trivializing content, these classes in their current iteration should worry him as well.
Again, this is speaking as someone who is playing a Hemomancer as their current main character.
This feedback post is almost purely mechanical in nature. First, I will be looking at Invoker as class. Next I will be looking at Hemomancer and Elementalist comparatively. For reference, I have played both paths to endgame on live servers; level 30 (Hemomancer) and level 28 (Elementalist) respectively. I mostly levelled these classes solo, since it gives me the best impression of what the class can do on its own. I will also preface this feedback post with transparency: I am currently playing a (second) Hemomancer as my main character, but I will endeavour to be as honest and unbiased with my feedback as I can.
Invoker generally:
As a class, Invoker in general feels amazingly fun to play. So a big thank you to Amnesy for a breath of fresh air on this old server. Invoker does not suffer from the pain (some would say) of “summon and buff” gameplay, that most other casters have to deal with. It is truly a blaster class, and one that can be insanely potent in the right hands.
From a design standpoint, I believe it to be a huge positive, that Invoker cannot benefit from divine dipping and that dodge ac bonuses are lost upon monk dipping. Not gaining anything from divine dipping, means that invokers in general are weak to spells that don't respect spellcraft, and even with 56-60 AC are still in range of a good true strike KD. All in all, very good design choices, that encourages a more diverse pool of valid class dips.
Overall, I like the focus pool system and I think it could be cool baseline for future classes. Psion anyone? : )
Though it is worth considering, how the system affects overall class balance, because it effectively makes Invoker an infinite spells per day casting class. While warlock also has some infinite spell casting, many of the more “powerful” spells, are locked behind cooldowns (3 minutes) or higher spell slots that are finite in number. The infinite casting nature of Invoker does make it have more of an “MMO” feel to it than other casters, which could be considered “disruptive for the setting” by some players. While I acknowledge that caster Warlocks weren’t really a thing before the introduction of Invoker, the existence of Invoker now also means that you would pick Invoker over Warlock any day, if you were going to build a caster. Epic Spell Foci, 9th level spells and access to epic spells, makes Invoker blow non-eldritch blast Warlocks out of the water. Right now, you can play a hemomancer with 500-600+ HP, 58 AC, approximately 40 in all saves (with spellcraft and endgame gearing), 64 discipline, infinite casting with a somewhat limited spell kit, at a very potent DC (40-42 for 9th level spells).
Invokers are built upon the sorcerer kit, meaning that their spell picks matter greatly and you must make sure to have something to suit every situation. However, even with the few spells they get access to they are currently, when taking everything into account, the most potent casters in the game. Especially if you know how to play a regular sorcerer.
Invoker is a full caster and as such, gets access to dweomercrafting 2 by the time it hits 30. Most other full casters get some sort of crafting feat that allows them to hit dweomercrafting 3. Invoker do not get this and must spend 30 skill points to reach 30 craft mastery or spend a feat. In my opinion this is fine, and I would keep it that way. Invokers already get a lot; they need to have some downsides.
Invoker gets no bonus languages. I mentioned this to Amnesy and they said that if elemental languages were added, Elementalist would eventually get that. No extra language for Hemomancer, though I think they could do with draconic as a base language. (Transparency: My own character would gain nothing from this as they get Draconic for free from other sources).
Path feedback:
In this section I will be comparing the current two Invoker paths available, and discuss overall class mechanics, focus generation, signature spells and overall power of the classes.
Class mechanics:
Elementalist:
Elmentalist chooses its element path at an early level, and gains various bonuses as the elementalist increases in power. Some of these are good, and some of them are negligible. Earth and Air are solid, where Air gets more AC and 50% ranged concealment, but earth gets an equivalent to ESKF: Disc for free. Fire gets unisaves, but their deflection AC does not stack with epic mage armor. Water gets regeneration and free eskf: sail, but their natural AC bonus, does not stack with epic mage armor. Earth elementalist is a prime contender for a pure 30 elementalist build, that can cast without cost, and still hit mid 60’s discipline.
Elemental overcharge seems pretty neat, especially if you’re in a huge fight and you have some support to make sure you don’t explode yourself via feedback damage. The damage isn’t too bad, unless you spam the same spell consecutively. It’s a cool ability on a long cooldown, but the fact that it burns your focus when you activate it, makes it a button I wouldn’t want to press unless I’m below 50% focus, especially when you are somewhat struggling for focus on Elementalist. More on this later.
Hemomancer:
Blood stacks and how they interact with Hemomancers signature spells, is a nifty and interesting mechanic. Blood stack generation is bad at lower levels, requiring you to self-harvest to 10 stacks before heading out into the wilds, to get your Red Harvest empowerment buff. At epic levels, you are practically swimming in blood stack points, meaning you're never without Red Harvest Empowerment.
Speaking of Empowerment: Hemomancer gets way too much from Empowerment currently, hands down. Dodge AC, Regen, Damage Immunity and Unisaves depending on cha-mod on top of temporary HP. It’s way too much. I would personally see unisaves and damage immunity gone. The AC and regen is more than enough. I also think that the overheal mechanic should be toned down significantly. It’s too much. Right now, we’re looking at 150+ HP on top of base HP. That’s well above 600 HP on an 18 con Hemomancer. It could easily be toned down to a 60HP max and still be good.
Focus generation:
Elementalist:
Having played Hemomancer before playing Elementalist, I can say with certainty that Elementalist takes much more micro-managing to effectively have infinite spellcasting. I was drinking alcohol and juggling my sobriety- and rest meter to keep going. Compared to Hemomancer, Elementalist is definitely worse off with regards to focus generation. I would suggest upping the focus gain on server ticks by 15 or 20 across the board, or adding some mechanic to pull focus from the surroundings. I found myself struggling floating focus, even if I did conserve my spell casting while also pulling 3-4 packs of monsters to maximize damage per focus points spent. However, keeping in mind that the items that are being developed for invoker are rumored to lower focus cost, the above suggestion may be too much.
Hemomancer:
When I was levelling my first Hemomancer, I was appalled by its focus generation at lower levels. This has since been fixed / smoothed out, and the fact that cantrips now count as an alternate spell and red harvest gives more focus than early iterations, effectively means that Hemomancer, if played right, has infinite spell casting as soon as they step foot on Arelith. Hemomancer focus generation is amazing right now, and quite possibly too good. It’s hard to say, as I am not sure what Amnesy had in mind when they designed it. I would suggest keeping the finisher aspect of Red Harvest, but tone down base gain a bit. Especially if class specific items are meant to lower focus cost.
As a level 27 hemomancer that was practically living in Avernus, I only needed to rest when my rest meter hit 0% or if I made excessive use of self-harvest (I rarely did). A foot note here: I think self-harvesting should lower your rest % by a significant amount. It was previously set 5% at level 20+, which I felt was fine. Currently it’s down to 1%. 1% is not enough in my opinion. Maybe increase the rest decrease as you continuously self-harvest?
Signature spells:
Elementalist:
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Elemental_Hammer
Elemental Hammer is a 5th level spell slot, that when empowered/maximized does 100+ magical damage (above a certain focus threshold), or 100+ elemental damage of your chosen elementalist path, on a failed save, in a fireball sized AoE – while also dazing. Damage is around 80 on a successful save. Both damage and daze effect are checked by will saves, so this spell effectively ignores evasion / improved evasion and it is also party friendly. At high level gameplay, this is effectively a spammable party friendly empowered delayed blast fireball with variable damage (magic, acid, cold, fire or lightning), that ignores evasion and also has a chance to CC. Its only downside is the short range.
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Elemental_Annihilation
Elemental Annihilation is a 9th level spell, that deals almost the same damage as Elemental Hammer. It’s a huge size AoE, that deals force damage above a certain threshold (70%), but otherwise deals elemental damage depending on your chosen path. On average this spell deals a 140 damage in a huge AoE, dazes at a DC 40-42, and ignores evasion due to checking will save. It can also be cast from very far away, making it very very potent in any sort of engagement. This spell is also party friendly and absolutely demolishes content if cast above 90% focus.
In conclusion: Elementalist signature spells are way too strong, mostly due to the fact they don’t respect the usual rules for evocation spells, in that they don’t check reflex and thus aren’t subject to evasion. The magic damage above a certain focus threshold, also seems way too strong – as this damage type cannot be mitigated.
Hemomancer:
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Massacre
Massacre is a 7th level spell, that deals a significant amount of single target bleed damage, on a failed fortitude save. DC of the spell is usually around 36-38, depending on Cha mod. If the target is at 25% health or lower, the spell is empowered and will deal 300+ish damage on a failed save, provided you have 10 stacks of blood, at level 27 Hemomancer. The damage is significantly lower without blood stacks to consume. If Massacre kills a target, creates blood rain that demoralizes and lowers saves of nearby creatures, fears if they are demoralized, fort check versus death if they are feared, making it akin to an AoE finger of death, with the right setup. It also becomes a free cast, 1 round after killing a target. It’s a very convoluted spell, baked with many cool interactions - but even with all these juicy cookies and clever mechanics, it is a button I hardly ever press. Since most monsters on Arelith have bloated fortitude saves due to high con mods, you’ll start seeing this spell being reliably saved against in most content at around epic levels – making it incredibly unreliable in what it’s supposed to do. It has a very interesting interaction with 10 stack Soul Shriek, in which Soul Shriek acts as a fear setup for the AoE death mechanic of massacre. It's a fun button to press when you can gather a bunch of lower level monsters, cast Soul Shriek and then press Massacre to instantly kill the lot, as long as the creatures have low fortitude saves. Incidentally, the fear part of Soul Shriek makes the enemies flee, so you can't really benefit much from the mechanic. As with soul shriek, this ability seems overtuned in its current iteration, and should likely be revisted. But I’ll leave that up for the developers to decide.
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Soul_Shriek
Soul Shriek is a 9th level spell, that deals an absolutely insane amount of damage, on a fortitude save vs half. Currently I’m seeing 270 entropy damage in a colossal AoE, when my enemies fail their save and I consume all my blood stacks. It also fears, which means it’s a nice and easy setup for the Massacre AoE mechanic. The damage is around 160 on a successful save, provided you have 10 blood stacks to consume, half of that if you don’t have blood stacks. Blood stacks are very easy to generate and you basically have 10 blood stacks every 3-4 rounds. This means that you can do hell-ball levels of entropy damage every 30 seconds, double that, if they fail the save. The DC is around 40-44 depending on Cha mod and available blood stacks. This spell hits like a truck if you have blood stacks, and it feels absolutely amazing to press - but it is objectively insanely overtuned in its current iteration. This spell needs a revisit and a down-tuning.
In conclusion: Hemomancer signature spells are both way too strong and need a nerf. I like that they interact they way they do, but something needs to be done about the damage – especially Soul Shriek.
Ending thoughts:
I cannot deny how fun both of the Invoker classes are to play. They are so fun, that I found myself levelling 4 invokers in a row, trying out different builds and strategies. I really like the classes Amnesy, and I hope you don't take the above as me steamrolling over your work, pointing out all the bad stuff. I just want for them to be more on par with other classes. Otherwise I suspect that we'll se a server consisting of 30% spellswords, 60% invokers and 10% other classes.
Because in their current iteration, also in part due to the nature of their signature spells, Invokers are objectively way too powerful. Currently, there is no way I would ever consider playing any other type of offensive caster. If Irongron was worried about summons trivializing content, these classes in their current iteration should worry him as well.
Again, this is speaking as someone who is playing a Hemomancer as their current main character.