Arelith

Epic toughness seems to be serving no point? I honestly forgot the feat existed until recently. Epic toughness even though it can be taken multiple times ( why would you?) is even outshined by the regular toughness which provides 10 more hp. What i think is a good comparison is dodge and armor skin. Dodge giving 1 ac against one target and being a pre-epic feat and armor skin a 2 ac epic feat. The pre-epic toughness gives 30 hp while the epic toughness gives 20? I dont think it makes any sense. Should what is an epic version of a pre-epic feat be better? Would it not make sense for epic toughness to give more hp? That should propably go with the feat being limited to being taken only once but still.

I do agree that it's a dead feat. Having it give 60 HP let alone 30 would be better.

It's one of those general nwn feats who are largely irrelevant in Arelith. I dont know if something should be done about the feat itself tho. It's still a legitimate lvl 30 feat on pure ranger who really doesnt feel like they want a 14th favoured enemy or pure fighter who didnt go the overwhelming crit route. I personally also wish epic toughness was an option on epic palemaster bonus feats as a niche alternative to gsf or epic energy resist for melee PM (which hasnt been good for a while for the record). I think rather than changing the feat, we can open it for more classes maybe, and it's still going to remain largely unused except rare occasions and I dont see a problem with it. A lot of nwn feats are useless and forgotten.

Watchful Glare wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:39 pm I do agree that it's a dead feat. Having it give 60 HP let alone 30 would be better.

What i thought would make sense is Epic Toughness giving 60 hp BUT being so your only able to take it once , kinda like Armor Skin.

Frankly fine with it being bad.
1. Epic feat slots are already stacked with more important feats.
2. The classes that need HP already get it inherently through their class (i.e. EKD, barbarian, hemomancer).

The only time I've taken this feat is because I ran out of bonus epic ranger feats. Bear in mind that any adjustment to epic toughness is a passive buff to 30 ranger.

Epic Toughness is not as epic or toughening as the name suggests.

Terribad feat.

Good Character wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:55 am Frankly fine with it being bad.
1. Epic feat slots are already stacked with more important feats.
2. The classes that need HP already get it inherently through their class (i.e. EKD, barbarian, hemomancer).

To me those are arguments for making it better?

1) Exactly
2) In my most humble opinion classes with a lot of hp like barbarian or Earthkin Defender benefit THE LEAST from toughness. Just think of how much 30 hp is to someone who has it over 800.

SilverSnake wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:50 pm

Watchful Glare wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:39 pm I do agree that it's a dead feat. Having it give 60 HP let alone 30 would be better.

What i thought would make sense is Epic Toughness giving 60 hp BUT being so your only able to take it once , kinda like Armor Skin.

I love that idea! It especially would allow low CON characters and/or low hit dice characters to compensate for their weakness at the cost of an epic feat, if they so wish.

SilverSnake wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:52 am
To me those are arguments for making it better?

1) Exactly
2) In my most humble opinion classes with a lot of hp like barbarian or Earthkin Defender benefit THE LEAST from toughness. Just think of how much 30 hp is to someone who has it over 800.

1. If you have no more feat slots, how are you going to take Epic Toughness?

2. Correct. That wasn't my point, though. Those classes need HP but they receive it via their classes. Other classes receive other benefits - damage, great support options, malluses, etc. They don't need more survivability.

MissEvelyn wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:12 am

SilverSnake wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:50 pm

Watchful Glare wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:39 pm I do agree that it's a dead feat. Having it give 60 HP let alone 30 would be better.

What i thought would make sense is Epic Toughness giving 60 hp BUT being so your only able to take it once , kinda like Armor Skin.

I love that idea! It especially would allow low CON characters and/or low hit dice characters to compensate for their weakness at the cost of an epic feat, if they so wish.

So I can finally play the 1k hp elf I always wanted xD

It's an amazing feat.

Good Character wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:22 am If you have no more feat slots, how are you going to take Epic Toughness?

You're missing the point. The objective isn't to add another MUST HAVE epic feat - it's to diversify the desirable options, which will then diversify builds and give people more ways to craft a unique character sheet. I've made plenty of builds that had a hanging epic feat that I didn't really know what to do with, and I would have loved more viable options for myself. You lose nothing by making epic toughness a little less worthless, so (other than the inadvertent buff to Ranger 30 as Ork mentioned) why oppose a change for the better?

Give it 5% DI to all physical damage types and let players take it up to 3 times.

Now you can really start arguing

I usually comapre it to great constitution feat.

Great constitution: 15 HP and 0.5 fort save at level 30

Epic toughness: Only 10 HP

Making epic toughness 20 HP would be fair IMO

magistrasa wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:17 pm You're missing the point. The objective isn't to add another MUST HAVE epic feat - it's to diversify the desirable options, which will then diversify builds and give people more ways to craft a unique character sheet. I've made plenty of builds that had a hanging epic feat that I didn't really know what to do with, and I would have loved more viable options for myself. You lose nothing by making epic toughness a little less worthless, so (other than the inadvertent buff to Ranger 30 as Ork mentioned) why oppose a change for the better?

Except you do as I mentioned in my 2nd post. It provides extra survivability where it's not needed (the classes I previously mentioned) or where it should not be gained (every other class).

If we talking build diversity epic toughness is a poor place to start

Algol wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:24 pm I usually comapre it to great constitution feat.

Great constitution: 15 HP and 0.5 fort save at level 30

Epic toughness: Only 10 HP

Making epic toughness 20 HP would be fair IMO

Epic Toughness is 20 HP.

I stand humbled and corrected then.

There's a lot of fluff feats that serve only to pad out the feat selection screen. Epic Toughness is one of them.

ElvenEdibles wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:35 pm There's a lot of fluff feats that serve only to pad out the feat selection screen. Epic Toughness is one of them.

It would be great to see them all eventually become worthwhile or interesting in some way. Thug, Artist, Dirty Fighting, etc.

TurningLeaf wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:44 pm

ElvenEdibles wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:35 pm There's a lot of fluff feats that serve only to pad out the feat selection screen. Epic Toughness is one of them.

It would be great to see them all eventually become worthwhile or interesting in some way. Thug, Artist, Dirty Fighting, etc.

I could be wrong since I haven't evaluated the total possible gear bonuses in awhile but I believe Artist is actually used by Spot radar builds that want to hit 107 for the chance of spotting 127 Hide/MS builds and similarly optimized Bluff builds.

SilverSnake wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:50 pm

Watchful Glare wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:39 pm I do agree that it's a dead feat. Having it give 60 HP let alone 30 would be better.

What i thought would make sense is Epic Toughness giving 60 hp BUT being so your only able to take it once , kinda like Armor Skin.

This seems like a very good tweak. It’s a solid HP buff for low HP builds, but in no way mandatory or stackable. And it’s not worth it for high HP builds which is fine.