Arelith

Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that mages get native access to mass zoo spells and mass haste for their summons, while clerics get neither.

That's the feedback.

Clerics may get some mass zoo spells depending on domains very Soon™. However, they won't have as comprehensive a list as arcane casters because the dedicated arcane casters will need certain cookies to fulfill certain roles. Otherwise, clerics would simply outdo them in every aspect.

Kenji wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:10 am Clerics may get some mass zoo spells depending on domains very Soon™. However, they won't have as comprehensive a list as arcane casters because the dedicated arcane casters will need certain cookies to fulfill certain roles. Otherwise, clerics would simply outdo them in every aspect.

I'm glad to hear it.

But since single target spells no longer work, like regen, shield, concealment, on summons. Wouldn't it only be fair that both can throw up mass zoos and mass haste so that mages aren't always outdoing clerics as 'summoners'?

Thanks for taking time to respond too.

When you say, not as comprehensive, does that mean some zoo spells but not all? And will haste be included in this?

Mass Haste is pretty game changing, and the difference between a cleric's minions without haste and a mage's with haste is massive.

Kenji wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:10 am Clerics may get some mass zoo spells depending on domains very Soon™. However, they won't have as comprehensive a list as arcane casters because the dedicated arcane casters will need certain cookies to fulfill certain roles. Otherwise, clerics would simply outdo them in every aspect.

Detected the second Soon™ from Kenji in a short time.
By server rules if the third Soon™ is detected within a period of Reasonable™ time Kenji would have to go online and give everyone their demands for 1 day! MAJOR AWARDS FOR EVERYONE

Eldariash wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:28 am

Kenji wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:10 am Clerics may get some mass zoo spells depending on domains very Soon™. However, they won't have as comprehensive a list as arcane casters because the dedicated arcane casters will need certain cookies to fulfill certain roles. Otherwise, clerics would simply outdo them in every aspect.

Detected the second Soon™ from Kenji in a short time.
By server rules if the third Soon™ is detected within a period of Reasonable™ time Kenji would have to go online and give everyone their demands for 1 day! MAJOR AWARDS FOR EVERYONE

Pixie barbarian, here I come. Oh boy!

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:43 am Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that mages get native access to mass zoo spells and mass haste for their summons, while clerics get neither.

That's the feedback.

Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that clerics get AC and can do melee, while mages get neither.

That's the feedback.

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:52 am

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:43 am Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that mages get native access to mass zoo spells and mass haste for their summons, while clerics get neither.

That's the feedback.

Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that clerics get AC and can do melee, while mages get neither.

That's the feedback.

Thank you.

Either we align summoner classes to be equal or what was the point of the sequencer update?

Ork wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:20 pm Either we align summoner classes to be equal or what was the point of the sequencer update?

Yeah. It confuses me.

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:52 am

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:43 am Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that mages get native access to mass zoo spells and mass haste for their summons, while clerics get neither.

That's the feedback.

Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that clerics get AC and can do melee, while mages get neither.

That's the feedback.

Yeah, as a guy who bemoans the current state of rogues on a daily basis I'm basically shaking my head.

Clerics are a tier one class. Wizards are tier two: still incredibly powerful, but with some sensible weaknesses.

Where a wizard can do incredible things but is vulnerable to quickly dying if not played well or slightly unlucky, clerics can do incredible things while taking axes to the face. If there are areas where the wizard outshines you, this is a very good thing.

Nerf cleric : )

Waldo52 wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:27 pm

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:52 am

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:43 am Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that mages get native access to mass zoo spells and mass haste for their summons, while clerics get neither.

That's the feedback.

Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that clerics get AC and can do melee, while mages get neither.

That's the feedback.

Yeah, as a guy who bemoans the current state of rogues on a daily basis I'm basically shaking my head.

Clerics are a tier one class. Wizards are tier two: still incredibly powerful, but with some sensible weaknesses.

Where a wizard can do incredible things but is vulnerable to quickly dying if not played well or slightly unlucky, clerics can do incredible things while taking axes to the face. If there are areas where the wizard outshines you, this is a very good thing.

Nerf cleric : )

Build wizards better.
You can absolutely get incredibly high AC on a wizard.

However, this thread is about Summoning. Not Caster AC. Take it elsewhere. And no, your vision of a class does not have to be everyone elses vision of a class. There is no reason clerics should be left behind in the summoning game now, after we just did a massive overhaul to make classes more equal in summoning.

Sounds like some people are just being petty, and would rather revenge than balance.

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:03 pm

Waldo52 wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:27 pm

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:52 am
Hey. This is some feedback.

I'm feeling pretty bummed out and envious, seeing that clerics get AC and can do melee, while mages get neither.

That's the feedback.

Yeah, as a guy who bemoans the current state of rogues on a daily basis I'm basically shaking my head.

Clerics are a tier one class. Wizards are tier two: still incredibly powerful, but with some sensible weaknesses.

Where a wizard can do incredible things but is vulnerable to quickly dying if not played well or slightly unlucky, clerics can do incredible things while taking axes to the face. If there are areas where the wizard outshines you, this is a very good thing.

Nerf cleric : )

Build wizards better.
You can absolutely get incredibly high AC on a wizard.

However, this thread is about Summoning. Not Caster AC. Take it elsewhere. And no, your vision of a class does not have to be everyone elses vision of a class. There is no reason clerics should be left behind in the summoning game now, after we just did a massive overhaul to make classes more equal in summoning.

Sounds like some people are just being petty, and would rather revenge than balance.

Your bein meen!

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:26 pm

Ork wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:20 pm Either we align summoner classes to be equal or what was the point of the sequencer update?

Yeah. It confuses me.

Aligning summons and aligning summoner classes isn't the same thing - the base class chassis aren't on the same footing.
More importantly; we're debating what's essentially a QoL issue and a matter of cost - clerics can still use these buffs in the form of scrolls.

The sequencer update was intended to give the team a better control over summons and what buffs can be applied to them.
Interestingly enough, the cleric - a caster class that arguably needs summons the least, had been the major offender here by being able to buff their summons more than any other class.

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:03 pm You can absolutely get incredibly high AC on a wizard.

AC 50 isn't high - and that's after going out of one's way to get there. Everything about the mage kit hinders players from getting high AC and unless we're talking about div dip sorc (which isn't very good to begin with), the final AC isn't going to be what I'd call "incredible".

Clerics can get better AC still and have better hp - they are a melee class geared toward face tanking, mages are not.
They can also kill things with their melee attacks pretty well and can even expand that for their ranged game with Zen Archery.

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:43 pm

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:26 pm

Ork wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:20 pm Either we align summoner classes to be equal or what was the point of the sequencer update?

Yeah. It confuses me.

Aligning summons and aligning summoner classes isn't the same thing - the base class chassis aren't on the same footing.
More importantly; we're debating what's essentially a QoL issue and a matter of cost - clerics can still use these buffs in the form of scrolls.

The sequencer update was intended to give the team a better control over summons and what buffs can be applied to them.
Interestingly enough, the cleric - a caster class that arguably needs summons the least, had been the major offender here by being able to buff their summons more than any other class.

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:03 pm You can absolutely get incredibly high AC on a wizard.

AC 50 isn't high - and that's after going out of one's way to get there. Everything about the mage kit hinders players from getting high AC and unless we're talking about div dip sorc (which isn't very good to begin with), the final AC isn't going to be what I'd call "incredible".

Clerics can get better AC still and have better hp - they are a melee class geared toward face tanking, mages are not.
They can also kill things with their melee attacks pretty well and can even expand that for their ranged game with Zen Archery.

Auto still exists. monk dip exists. palemaster exists. improved expertise exists. -guard exists. get better at building a wizard and please stop trolling my thread. 50 ac is pathetic, you can get it much higher than that.

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:43 pm AC 50 isn't high.

Who said 50? I never said 50. You made that number up yourself. You can get 74 AC as a mage, mass haste your summons, mass zoo your summons and be unknockdownable while being crit and sneak immune, all on 1 build. I'm not going to build your characters for you.

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:43 pm The sequencer update was intended to give the team a better control over summons and what buffs can be applied to them.

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:43 pm Clerics can still use these buffs in the form of scrolls.

If you're going to move the goalposts you should do it in a way to help your argument, not invalidate it.

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:43 pm the cleric - a caster class

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:43 pm they are a melee class

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:43 pm ranged game with Zen Archery.

You're listing three dramatically different ways to build a cleric. You have no coherent point.
Also, lol. Zen Archery builds. Okay.

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:43 pm had been the major offender here by being able to buff their summons more than any other class.

Irrelevant. That is the past. No longer the case. Why should it have any impact on present or future balance, unless, you are infact just after revenge rather than balance?

If this is how you want to spend your time, let's do it.

Sequencers were added to, at least from my perspective, make summons more streamlined for balancing purposes. The days of ubermench summons via evang cleric buffs are over - but now we have classes with access to mass spells able to do summons better - that's not only not fair, it goes against the design of sequencers.

Either we let summons recieve buffs or we don't. My heart tells me we should just not allow any buffs to be applied to summons unless via sequencer.

I really don't understand your anger with me. I merely reinforced Kenji's statement from the second post of this very thread - if clerics got all the summon buffing cookies that mages have, they'd outperform them in every way.

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:47 pm Who said 50? I never said 50. You made that number up yourself. You can get 74 AC as a mage, mass haste your summons, mass zoo your summons and be unknockdownable while being crit and sneak immune, all on 1 build. I'm not going to build your characters for you.

50 is where an average mage build is going to sit before the build starts compromising the character's spellcasting ability in favour of more AC. The moment you start doing that you're probably better off playing a different class altogether, because better AC =/= better wizard.
And plz don't - your build is boring. Sitting behind imp expertise (and not being able to cast spells) while waiting for the summons to do all the work isn't how I like to play the game.

Still, a cleric can do all that while sitting behind 64 AC and smashing face themselves - which is the entire point.


I really have no intention in engaging in this back and forth any further. Your point isn't valid - you just want to have your cake and eat it too and couldn't be more obvious about it.

Summoning doesn't balance the equation between wizard and cleric, dawg. What a weird hill to die on.

A monk dip does not compromise spellcasting ability. Auto Still means losing one ESF for unflatfootable AC and DI. Pale Master arguably is the only one of the things there that impacts spellcasting ability, but since we're talking only about summons and their strength, you barely lose anything at all. Improved Expertise drops on spellcast but you are not going to be being hit 90% of the time. It is a very wonderful feat for when things get out of hand. The build is only as boring as you play it. You have infinite cantrips and a whole repertoire of offensive magic to control your foes.

On point: in this new bizarre sequencer meta, and since I have to take it seriously since its content we have added, Wizards have it too good. Mass Haste is ridiculous. Mass Zoo spells (I have no idea why we allow this but not single zoo spells or what the logic was behind this) are ridiculous and if you want to make a summoner specifically then it is easy to choose the right ESFs and metamagics and specializations to have them become nigh indestructible. Clerics do not have these options available to them, barring spending exorbitant amounts of coin on scrolls. Lore 35 is reasonable and easy to attain, but the cost of sequencers AND those scrolls makes it unattractive at best and unfeasible at worst.

I play 95% wizard. In terms of summons, it has it too good. I loathe sequencers but if we have to put up with them then parity has to be achieved one way or the other.

Evianna wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:41 pm A monk dip does not compromise spellcasting ability. Auto Still means losing one ESF for unflatfootable AC and DI. Pale Master arguably is the only one of the things there that impacts spellcasting ability, but since we're talking only about summons and their strength, you barely lose anything at all. Improved Expertise drops on spellcast but you are not going to be being hit 90% of the time. It is a very wonderful feat for when things get out of hand. The build is only as boring as you play it. You have infinite cantrips and a whole repertoire of offensive magic to control your foes.

Last I checked, Auto still are 3 epic feats, not 1. A monk dip taken in place of a ranger dip costs another ESF/epic spell. Further multiclassing into pale master drops the CL of all non-necro spells below 26. Why even wizard at that point?

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:27 pm I really don't understand your anger with me.

I'm not angry. Correcting you is not me being angry.

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:03 pm However, this thread is about Summoning. Not Caster AC. Take it elsewhere.

-XXX- wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:27 pm I really have no intention in engaging in this back and forth any further.

Excellent.

I quite like where summons are at the moment. Mass zoo spells only increase summon power slightly, I’d say. It seems like mass haste is the main concern here, but then could it just be added to each of the higher Tier sequencers instead? Perhaps that would make them a tad too powerful, however.

Also, this thread was unpleasant to read through. Be nicer, people.

Hot take, wizards should be better summoners then clerics. And I'm sure cleric summoners still do fine.

Hazard wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:26 pm I'm not angry. Correcting you is not me being angry.

*shakes fists to the heavens for no apparent reason*

RAGE!!!