Arelith

Hey all!

I think it'd be a reasonable change if slave callers could only be spoken to by native Andunorians/outcasts. Currently, anyone from the surface can summon a slave to the pits, then massacre them without a chance to fight back. Now this makes sense for Andunorians to have this power over their slaves, but why does Elfy McElf, have the power to ask the drow slave caller to summon for him? I've seen cases of surface PCs doing this, simply to win pvp, and it's.. dubious behaviour at best.

Seems like this should have similar restrictions to the Hub/Trading Post/Treadstone Portals.

I agree that the Slave Caller system needs to be adjusted precisely for this reason. It's become too tempting for irresponsible players to take advantage of this system simply to get to slave.

An explanation for why a Drow slave caller would allow an elf, paladin, goodly natured PC or generally unbranded surfacer to use their system would be great. Same with Shadovar slave caller? I'm curious some of the logic in this staying as it is in general.

A limitation to native Andunorians/Beast Races and those who have Slave Ownership Contracts/Papers would be better.

Morgy wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:12 pm Hey all!

I think it'd be a reasonable change if slave callers could only be spoken to by native Andunorians/outcasts. Currently, anyone from the surface can summon a slave to the pits, then massacre them without a chance to fight back. Now this makes sense for Andunorians to have this power over their slaves, but why does Elfy McElf, have the power to ask the drow slave caller to summon for him? I've seen cases of surface PCs doing this, simply to win pvp, and it's.. dubious behaviour at best.

Seems like this should have similar restrictions to the Hub/Trading Post/Treadstone Portals.

I'm somewhat surprised that someone would try this as it's pretty bad form. I would also advise anyone who suffers such a fate to report it.

There no reason a good aligned PC should be using a slave caller to score an easy win in PvP or track down a threat who happens to be a slave.

Edens_Fall wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:08 pm

Morgy wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:12 pm Hey all!

I think it'd be a reasonable change if slave callers could only be spoken to by native Andunorians/outcasts. Currently, anyone from the surface can summon a slave to the pits, then massacre them without a chance to fight back. Now this makes sense for Andunorians to have this power over their slaves, but why does Elfy McElf, have the power to ask the drow slave caller to summon for him? I've seen cases of surface PCs doing this, simply to win pvp, and it's.. dubious behaviour at best.

Seems like this should have similar restrictions to the Hub/Trading Post/Treadstone Portals.

I'm somewhat surprised that someone would try this as it's pretty bad form. I would also advise anyone who suffers such a fate to report it.

There no reason a good aligned PC should be using a slave caller to score an easy win in PvP or track down a threat who happens to be a slave.

what if I just record every slave i come across and then just one day summon them all to start a revolution? I mean it might actauly make sense for a secret UD paladin to do something silly like this. But surfacers/regardless of alignment, really shouldn't have acess to the summoning system. in fact it's weird that the slave system cross over too to other settlments. Like I think I might be able to yoink UD slaves wandering around orc lands into sibayad.

Edens_Fall wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:08 pm

Morgy wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:12 pm Hey all!

I think it'd be a reasonable change if slave callers could only be spoken to by native Andunorians/outcasts. Currently, anyone from the surface can summon a slave to the pits, then massacre them without a chance to fight back. Now this makes sense for Andunorians to have this power over their slaves, but why does Elfy McElf, have the power to ask the drow slave caller to summon for him? I've seen cases of surface PCs doing this, simply to win pvp, and it's.. dubious behaviour at best.

Seems like this should have similar restrictions to the Hub/Trading Post/Treadstone Portals.

I'm somewhat surprised that someone would try this as it's pretty bad form. I would also advise anyone who suffers such a fate to report it.

There no reason a good aligned PC should be using a slave caller to score an easy win in PvP or track down a threat who happens to be a slave.

Strongly agree on the alignment thing. It does happen though, having seen it once myself and heard of it many other times. Non-Andunorians having access to this feels like an oversight, but one that is rarely abused historically - or at least reported.

Setting aside the list of problems I have with this system for a moment, and assuming this isn't a rule-break or something else that should be reported, why shouldn't a surface character be able to use a slave caller? It seems to me that misusing the system to strong-arm, blackmail or extort is exactly the type of thing that should happen and would be in-character for some types of characters.

Mattamue wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:19 pm Setting aside the list of problems I have with this system for a moment, and assuming this isn't a rule-break or something else that should be reported, why shouldn't a surface character be able to use a slave caller? It seems to me that misusing the system to strong-arm, blackmail or extort is exactly the type of thing that should happen and would be in-character for some types of characters.

I don’t think it’s in character for a sun elf, for example, to be able to casually arranged a drow slaver to summon a slave in front of them , that belongs to the city, to then kill the city’s property and run off. That isn’t sensical to me.

Ok but how about the slave callers in other places? Sibayad still has one, right? We could argue the other way around, why would the Sibayad slaver do anything for a monstrous race when the sign says "no monsters"? In Dis, why would they care if you were a drow or an elf? You're there using their services, and to them they want to corrupt you, they want to hook you in. In fact they'd probably be more happy to do it for an elf, corrupting an elf would make them absolutely gleeful. Corruption and violence are the only things that make devils happy (if you can even use that word for it). It should cost money in Dis and the area have a big disclaimer about how the establishment claims no responsibility for the outcome of the service.

Really though, I don't like the underdark-centric nature of slavery and think it should be expanded, because as it is it suffers from it. Everyone knows if they see a slave, that slave is involved in Andunor. And it makes the RP involved very one-liner. "Oh no a slave, they serve teh underdarks!"
Don't limit it to the underdark any more than it already is.

I'm talking about Andunor, not Dis. Dis wouldn't be a problem given that the devils respond to violence there with their own force. Sibayad slavers probably shouldn't work with monsters, no.

As for the expanding of slavery, what's that got to do with this topic?

I'm not really sure how any of your post argues with my points, in fact.

The issue falls in alignment and lacking association with why a Slave Caller should still be expanded to allow affiliates of the surface and specific races from using the system.

Yes a surface could own a slave, and in such a case could still use the Callers in other locations. However racial bias exists in other sections of the server/game/lore. If you want a slave on the surface, go for it, just know that unlike Andunor, you are subject to heavier bias and backlash. There's nothing else stopping people from taking a slave outside of this except for social stigma and you wanting to conform to it. That slavery follows the one-linear idea of slave = Andunor is purely thanks to how the server's social norms developed and you're welcome to try and change it by IC means.

A drow slave caller, in Andunor by lore standards would not allow an elf to use its services. Races outside of other drow, I'd actually expect them to charge more for the service or refuse service.

Dis slave caller, in Hell. Hardly cares about who business is being given to. However A dialogue adjustment should probably be incorporated for this if a Goodly natured individual, ESPECIALLY a paladin or an Aasimar would want to use the service.

Sibayad slave caller, in a relatively more lawless desert setting. I would consider this similar to the proposed idea in Dis or Shadovar. Why would certain alignments have the option to use this? ex; Lawful Good = No

Alternatively, cut out the Slave Caller system entirely from the server and incorporate an item to Slave-Owners to call their slaves back to them similar to the faction system, where you can just designate who else can use the collar's feature. Like a thumb-print system. Then no one has to argue or make up non-topic related comments to support a claim that's not actually arguing for or against the topic.

Rievetel wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:20 pm Alternatively, cut out the Slave Caller system entirely from the server and incorporate an item to Slave-Owners to call their slaves back to them similar to the faction system, where you can just designate who else can use the collar's feature. Like a thumb-print system. Then no one has to argue or make up non-topic related comments to support a claim that's not actually arguing for or against the topic.

One thing to highlight, is that Slavers always own the slave. PCs merely lease them. Slave callers ensure accountability. If a slave gets mouthy, they'll soon be back in the pits.

DM Poppy wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:30 pm

Rievetel wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:20 pm Alternatively, cut out the Slave Caller system entirely from the server and incorporate an item to Slave-Owners to call their slaves back to them similar to the faction system, where you can just designate who else can use the collar's feature. Like a thumb-print system. Then no one has to argue or make up non-topic related comments to support a claim that's not actually arguing for or against the topic.

One thing to highlight, is that Slavers always own the slave. PCs merely lease them. Slave callers ensure accountability. If a slave gets mouthy, they'll soon be back in the pits.

I think Grumpy said the same thing recently in a thread, which kind of sparked my further thought about why the NPC callers would be shifty about letting anyone not working/living in the city, come down and have control over their property. Does that make sense?

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:54 pm Really though, I don't like the underdark-centric nature of slavery and think it should be expanded, because as it is it suffers from it. Everyone knows if they see a slave, that slave is involved in Andunor. And it makes the RP involved very one-liner. "Oh no a slave, they serve teh underdarks!"
Don't limit it to the Underdark any more than it already is.

This idea has been expressed before back when Sencliff had a slaver. However, I can not recall if it was a DM decree or Player's efforts that led to the current "No Slaves" on the surface theme. Perhaps a mix of both? I can recall when being a slave in Sibayad often led to one's death at the hands of PCs when said slave refused to be forced out of slavery right then and there. Guldorands current laws allow slaves to visit which is nice. But I am pretty sure no Slave can own anything outside a few small areas.

I would love to see a Thayan slaver in Guldorand just for the RP value, but I doubt it would ever be used by players as to be a slave on the surface is to ask for Death at worst or Harassment at best.

I’d love to just see slavery be something roleplayed instead of anything mechanical at all.

The slavery system is... hmm... largely nonsensical.

But, so too are the boundaries around Surfacers hanging around Andunor, and even establishing themselves there.

And I know this has been hashed to death by so many folk, so I'm not going to go there.

But, it would make sense (to me at least) if Slave Callers would only respond to requests to recall a slave if that request was given by an appropriate person.

In Andunor, this would mean a Citizen of one of the Andunorian Districts (easy mechanic)
In Sibiyad, this would mean non-monsters who pay an appropriate fee
In Dis, this would mean ANYONE who pays an appropriate fee

I don't think there's a Slave Caller on Surface or Guldorand? (I think the Surface Slave Caller was on Sencliff previously, but was removed due to IC actions).

Rei_Jin wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:06 am The slavery system is... hmm... largely nonsensical.

But, so too are the boundaries around Surfacers hanging around Andunor, and even establishing themselves there.

And I know this has been hashed to death by so many folk, so I'm not going to go there.

But, it would make sense (to me at least) if Slave Callers would only respond to requests to recall a slave if that request was given by an appropriate person.

In Andunor, this would mean a Citizen of one of the Andunorian Districts (easy mechanic)
In Sibiyad, this would mean non-monsters who pay an appropriate fee
In Dis, this would mean ANYONE who pays an appropriate fee

I don't think there's a Slave Caller on Surface or Guldorand? (I think the Surface Slave Caller was on Sencliff previously, but was removed due to IC actions).

FYI the Treadstone in Andunor has one and is surface

lol, I always forget about Treadstone being surface.

Yeah, it should work the same way as the Andunor one does then; only work for those with Andunorian Citizenship

Having used the caller to punish someone elses slave in the past, I disagree with changing it.
Interestingly, the few times I've seen it used to punish someone elses Slave they end up free in the next few days, if anything that is more an issue than the punishment/consequence of an action being enacted onto a slave.

If someone isn't taking slavery seriously or acts out of place and gets pulled into the pit for it, that's frankly on them.
If someone does this just to kill you without a reason, report it, that should be the end of it.

You can bluff your race, a Sun elf of evil alignment or even morally wavering is entirely justified in faking what they are to get something done, this is even respected by NPC's when giving feedback on the races they perceived or didn't.

Sincra wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:02 am Having used the caller to punish someone elses slave in the past, I disagree with changing it.
Interestingly, the few times I've seen it used to punish someone elses Slave they end up free in the next few days, if anything that is more an issue than the punishment/consequence of an action being enacted onto a slave.

If someone isn't taking slavery seriously or acts out of place and gets pulled into the pit for it, that's frankly on them.
If someone does this just to kill you without a reason, report it, that should be the end of it.

You can bluff your race, a Sun elf of evil alignment or even morally wavering is entirely justified in faking what they are to get something done, this is even respected by NPC's when giving feedback on the races they perceived or didn't.

While I agree that you should be able to bluff them, it does seem silly if you're not attempting to disguise your race, or not disguised at all that an andunorian slavemaster will happily pull a slave to a sun elf so that the sun elf can kill them.

Plus we have the Outcast system for a reason; for those that are evil enough as surface races to live down there.

So it'd make sense that either you have to disguise your race, or you have to be an outcast if you're a surface race. Otherwise, what IC sense does it make for a Andunorian slavemaster to let surfacers to summon slaves to murder them.

General FYI that getting summoned by the slave caller is an absolutely horrific experience that many PCs roleplay burn scars from if they're summoned too much.

Some thoughts

*I can absolutly see an argument for not allowing surface pcs (none outcasts, none monsters, none drow ect) from using the slave caller. That makes some sense.

*That said all underdarkers at least should all be able to summon slaves, for reasons already outlined.

*I would be against alignment locking it for the same reason I dislike most alignment locking ideas. They can be used as a detector don't take in the range of situations that can occur.

The GrumpyCat wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:16 am Some thoughts

*I can absolutly see an argument for not allowing surface pcs (none outcasts, none monsters, none drow ect) from using the slave caller. That makes some sense.

*That said all underdarkers at least should all be able to summon slaves, for reasons already outlined.

*I would be against alignment locking it for the same reason I dislike most alignment locking ideas. They can be used as a detector don't take in the range of situations that can occur.

I think all these points sum up the most ideal set up. I definitely think all UDers ought to have access to summoning slaves, who may be unruly and need a time out!

Alignment blocking mechanics I agree are not really very beneficial to RP and are probably best left out of it.

WanderingPoet wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:50 am

Sincra wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:02 am Having used the caller to punish someone elses slave in the past, I disagree with changing it.
Interestingly, the few times I've seen it used to punish someone elses Slave they end up free in the next few days, if anything that is more an issue than the punishment/consequence of an action being enacted onto a slave.

If someone isn't taking slavery seriously or acts out of place and gets pulled into the pit for it, that's frankly on them.
If someone does this just to kill you without a reason, report it, that should be the end of it.

You can bluff your race, a Sun elf of evil alignment or even morally wavering is entirely justified in faking what they are to get something done, this is even respected by NPC's when giving feedback on the races they perceived or didn't.

While I agree that you should be able to bluff them, it does seem silly if you're not attempting to disguise your race, or not disguised at all that an andunorian slavemaster will happily pull a slave to a sun elf so that the sun elf can kill them.

Plus we have the Outcast system for a reason; for those that are evil enough as surface races to live down there.

So it'd make sense that either you have to disguise your race, or you have to be an outcast if you're a surface race. Otherwise, what IC sense does it make for a Andunorian slavemaster to let surfacers to summon slaves to murder them.

This comes across as rather narrow-minded to how Slavery functions.
If the Slave, an item of merchandise, causes trouble, the slave pit master will want the behaviour corrected as to not do so makes them worth less.

As for Surfacers doing it, they have their own Slave callers, collars do not distinguish their source and frankly that's a good thing.
Why:
Person A summons Slave B, is notified they're an UD slave and can't do that. Suddenly you know they're affiliated below.
Person C summons Slave D, is notified they're not a slave of the UD, well, same issue but inverse.

It is just unfortunate that no one is willing to allow surface slavery.



For what it's worth I despise the Slavery system and find it overly complicated.
If it were left entirely to me I'd remove summoning all together and make it a mechanic that informs you of their general vicinity.
This promotes Scriers being a useful seeker tool (Rp hehe) but also gives a method for slaves to avoid instantaneous pit yoink.
This last point is important given we constantly shout about consent.


Edit:
To touch on the Murder via pit call and why it would be allowed, in all my time playing and being in and around the community, I have heard of someone being killed this way twice.
That points to whatever they did being nuisance enough to be used this way.

If I am:
In a dangerous place
Using a mechanic that can give my race away
Risking retaliation by a Slave owner and their allies
Pulling someone quite visibly to a known location without warning

Why would I walk up and admit my intent to the caller?
Which leads to the question, how does the NPC know your intentions in the supposed fixes? An Underdarker could still do this and I expect another forum post in much the similar vein if they do.

Sincra wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:49 pm This comes across as rather narrow-minded to how Slavery functions.
If the Slave, an item of merchandise, causes trouble, the slave pit master will want the behaviour corrected as to not do so makes them worth less.

As for Surfacers doing it, they have their own Slave callers, collars do not distinguish their source and frankly that's a good thing.
Why:
Person A summons Slave B, is notified they're an UD slave and can't do that. Suddenly you know they're affiliated below.
Person C summons Slave D, is notified they're not a slave of the UD, well, same issue but inverse.

It is just unfortunate that no one is willing to allow surface slavery.



For what it's worth I despise the Slavery system and find it overly complicated.
If it were left entirely to me I'd remove summoning all together and make it a mechanic that informs you of their general vicinity.
This promotes Scriers being a useful seeker tool (Rp hehe) but also gives a method for slaves to avoid instantaneous pit yoink.
This last point is important given we constantly shout about consent.


Edit:
To touch on the Murder via pit call and why it would be allowed, in all my time playing and being in and around the community, I have heard of someone being killed this way twice.
That points to whatever they did being nuisance enough to be used this way.

If I am:
In a dangerous place
Using a mechanic that can give my race away
Risking retaliation by a Slave owner and their allies
Pulling someone quite visibly to a known location without warning

Why would I walk up and admit my intent to the caller?
Which leads to the question, how does the NPC know your intentions in the supposed fixes? An Underdarker could still do this and I expect another forum post in much the similar vein if they do.

For clarity, I never said that there should be an affect on other slave callers. So I agree with your first point that surfacers have their own slave clalers that do not distinguish the source. Nothing written above has talked about changing this mechanic in any way.

I have no comment on the RP aspects of removing the summoning, personally; but I do think that this would be a lorewise improvement. It's kind of silly that slavers have these super collars that can summon people from anywhere any time. These collars should cost like a million gold each, since yoinking people is an epic spell focus.

Why would I walk up and admit my intent to the caller?

This is the exact point I was making. Why would a slave caller that works in Andunor even talk to non-outcast surfacers? A surfacer calling a slave to Andunor has -implicit intent-. This is just asking for the goods to be damaged or freed. Especially since they can do this on the surface callers, they're not losing much.

I'm arguing that if Elfy McElf or Dwarfy McDwarf came in, undisguised, with no status (outcast) in Andunor, that the caller shouldn't work with them. This would be in line with the pariah system negating services.

Of course, if they're disguised - good, go for it. If they're an outcast? Sounds good. If they're a surfacer that wants to use sibyad's caller? Go for it.

Have you considered that the slave callers themselves are of dubious morality and don't give a damn who's using their services as long as they're getting paid?