Arelith

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am**

PvP in this area is immediately responded to by nearby NPCs, but they will overlook pickpockets. It creates an unfair environment where a pickpocket can operate with very little in the way of risk and retaliation due to NPCs responding only if the victim initiates PvP. The pickpocket can basically know that they're mechanically in a safe zone.

I fully understand that this isn't how it should be seen IC, but this is how the mechanics play out in the area. Maybe the mechanics could be adjusted a bit to fit what would be fairer. I'd like to suggest that having the NPCs react to pickpockets in the same way as they react to PvP would be something in line with what I think they're there to do, but maybe other people would have better ideas?

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:48 pm**

Is this necessarily the worst thing to keep in some form? It's unfair mechanicallly as-is, I get that, but these areas are already so safe that a lot of rp as far as managing peaceful meetings has simply become "meet us in Dis/Shadovar or not at all" because of the rulebook armor. It seems like a reasonable compromise would simply be that if you detect the SoH attempt then you (not your party but you) are allowed (in that moment but not the future) to roll the dice on whether or not you can kill the thief and escape before the planar guards smack you down.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:09 pm**

perseid wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:48 pm Is this necessarily the worst thing to keep in some form? It's unfair mechanicallly as-is, I get that, but these areas are already so safe that a lot of rp as far as managing peaceful meetings has simply become "meet us in Dis/Shadovar or not at all" because of the rulebook armor. It seems like a reasonable compromise would simply be that if you detect the SoH attempt then you (not your party but you) are allowed (in that moment but not the future) to roll the dice on whether or not you can kill the thief and escape before the planar guards smack you down.

Yes, this is worse to keep, because this is a double shielding from consequence.

The rule already awkwardly protects the perpetrator by enforcing RP on what was until recently a hostile action.

Adding another layer of protection to this where even if a victim does RP with the pp, they are still incapable of doing anything without being beaten to death by a hugbox space is an unwarranted safety net.

Frankly I think the Shadovar should consider PP as much the same as attacking someone, since you have no recourse under their vigilance.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:31 pm**

Sincra wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:09 pm
perseid wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:48 pm Is this necessarily the worst thing to keep in some form? It's unfair mechanicallly as-is, I get that, but these areas are already so safe that a lot of rp as far as managing peaceful meetings has simply become "meet us in Dis/Shadovar or not at all" because of the rulebook armor. It seems like a reasonable compromise would simply be that if you detect the SoH attempt then you (not your party but you) are allowed (in that moment but not the future) to roll the dice on whether or not you can kill the thief and escape before the planar guards smack you down.

Frankly I think the Shadovar should consider PP as much the same as attacking someone, since you have no recourse under their vigilance.

For players that would probably be the best solution tbh. Since the Shadovar being the ones to go hostile and attack also has the advantage that there's no ambiguity about whether pvp is temporarily legal between players like there would be from my suggestion.

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:13 pm**

I guess if it could be coded that if any of the shadowvar spot it, they attack, that would be ideal!

Posted: **Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:37 pm**

Morgy wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:13 pm I guess if it could be coded that if any of the shadowvar spot it, they attack, that would be ideal!

For what it's worth, I agree with this.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:36 am**

The GrumpyCat wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:37 pm
Morgy wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:13 pm I guess if it could be coded that if any of the shadowvar spot it, they attack, that would be ideal!
For what it's worth, I agree with this.

I mean, shouldn't that be the script in every town? You fail your roll in range of a guard and the guards hostile you for X IG hours?

Hell, you could even have it so on death with a flag you just spawn in a prison cell for X hours.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:17 am**

Scylon wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:36 am I mean, shouldn't that be the script in every town? You fail your roll in range of a guard and the guards hostile you for X IG hours?

Hell, you could even have it so on death with a flag you just spawn in a prison cell for X hours.

The big difference is in a lot of these towns, there are guard factions that are maintained by a playerbase. In places like the tradepost where there's automatic retribution for PVP, it creates an unfortunate shield for PPers and creates a scenario in which roleplay is fairly unlikely to come from it. However, in towns with guard factions manned by players, making it an automatic reaction from NPC guards who see the act would more or less take away an avenue for RP and PVP for the guards and PPers there.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:20 am**

I get that. But, there are totally guard in the other cities as well. If you want it the same everywhere, remove the guard hostile actions in shadovar, or make it uniform everywhere.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:03 pm**

While we're at it, why do they loudly announce if you're stealthing? It's sort of weird.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:25 pm**

Scylon wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:36 am
The GrumpyCat wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:37 pm
Morgy wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:13 pm I guess if it could be coded that if any of the shadowvar spot it, they attack, that would be ideal!
For what it's worth, I agree with this.
I mean, shouldn't that be the script in every town? You fail your roll in range of a guard and the guards hostile you for X IG hours?

Hell, you could even have it so on death with a flag you just spawn in a prison cell for X hours.

1) As mentioned other areas have pc guards, and arn't protected by any 'no violence' rule.
2) To make that the case all over the server would likely create MASSIVE lag.
3) At current NPC guards arn't very highly statted, this situation might effect a low level PPer, but any hgih level PPer will likely just kill them, leading for more bodies to be picked up
4) PPing is pretty rough on pickpocketers already, I don't see a reason to make it more so, honestly.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:54 pm**

The GrumpyCat wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:25 pm 4) PPing is pretty rough on pickpocketers already, I don't see a reason to make it more so, honestly.

FWIW, this is not true, at least as pertains to high level pickpockets.

The pickpocket enjoys a massive rules advantage right now. They can steal from stealth with no interaction whatsoever. Pickpocket does not push them out of stealth unless they are detected. Generally, they can (and should) have blinding speed running or ready. Using this ability also does not drop stealth. This makes escape fairly trivial, since a pre-hasted character is usually able to get enough distance between themselves and any witnesses before the mandatory pre-engagement emote comes out.

When you pickpocket, then, there are three possible outcomes:

1) You succeed. Leave the area within a minute or so. Your target will be notified, but they'll probably not have any idea who did it if you were stealthed at the time.
2) You get detected by the victim, or more rarely by a bystander. Before they have a chance to react, immediately run for a corner to break line of sight (the biggest danger to you is a disabling spell which can hit you at range), then for a transition and/or portal. This is what you have blinding speed running for. You're basically not going to get caught by anyone that takes the time to follow the rules and attempt to engage you in roleplay.
3) You hit a blade orb. This destealths and paralyzes you. Thankfully, you have -pray. If you're smart, it's on hotkey. You press this the instant the blade orb goes off, and then proceed with the getaway phase of option 2.

The rule change was predicated on the notion that the pickpocket delay timer would be enough to give everyone enough time to engage and react. In practice, it just means that a smart pickpocket should pretty much always escape, so long as the victim follows the rules.

I believe there was another thread with some suggestions on how to improve this, which may be worth looking at.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 pm**

Scurvy Cur wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:54 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:25 pm 4) PPing is pretty rough on pickpocketers already, I don't see a reason to make it more so, honestly.
FWIW, this is not true, at least as pertains to high level pickpockets.

The pickpocket enjoys a massive rules advantage right now. They can steal from stealth with no interaction whatsoever. Pickpocket does not push them out of stealth unless they are detected. Generally, they can (and should) have blinding speed running or ready. Using this ability also does not drop stealth. This makes escape fairly trivial, since a pre-hasted character is usually able to get enough distance between themselves and any witnesses before the mandatory pre-engagement emote comes out.

When you pickpocket, then, there are three possible outcomes:

1) You succeed. Leave the area within a minute or so. Your target will be notified, but they'll probably not have any idea who did it if you were stealthed at the time.
2) You get detected by the victim, or more rarely by a bystander. Before they have a chance to react, immediately run for a corner to break line of sight (the biggest danger to you is a disabling spell which can hit you at range), then for a transition and/or portal. This is what you have blinding speed running for. You're basically not going to get caught by anyone that takes the time to follow the rules and attempt to engage you in roleplay.
3) You hit a blade orb. This destealths and paralyzes you. Thankfully, you have -pray. If you're smart, it's on hotkey. You press this the instant the blade orb goes off, and then proceed with the getaway phase of option 2.

The rule change was predicated on the notion that the pickpocket delay timer would be enough to give everyone enough time to engage and react. In practice, it just means that a smart pickpocket should pretty much always escape, so long as the victim follows the rules.

I believe there was another thread with some suggestions on how to improve this, which may be worth looking at.

Their is a limit to how much a Pickpocket can steal and it is limited to gold coins. It was severely nerfed from the days were a Pickpocket could steal hundereds of thousands worth in Scrolls and Ingots.

As for the massive rule advantage and your three outcomes. These have never changed. A PP has always been able to do so from stealth, without interaction, with the same means to escape if they are spotted or snared. The only difference is we expect you to RP before attacking them over an amount of gold you've likely tipped a barmaid in the Nomad ten times the amount.

So, it's not asking a great deal to RP before PvP over the sake of 3000 GP (If you max out the rolls)

As a side note, I do agree with the OP that Pickpocketing in Shadovar should come with risks, Morgy's suggestion about the spot roll is definately cool

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:19 pm**

Don't tell me the perspective I'm writing from. I know it, you don't.

GrumpyCat specifically stated that things are rough on pickpockets presently. This is far from the truth. While each victim may be hit very gently (1500ish gold average), this is an entirely different concept from "things are rough on the pickpocket"

Full disclosure: The standpoint I am writing from is from that of the pickpocket. When the rules changed, I thought that they would essentially secure the safety of the pickpocket. I dusted off an old character to experiment with. Over the course of about a week immediately following the rule change, I stole ~150k worth of scarves from hapless victims. During that time, I hit 3 blade orbs, got detected about 20 times, and escaped from every encounter without a single point of HP lost.

This is a far cry from "hard on the pickpocket".

Re: the change in outcomes, you're incorrect.

Previously, outcomes 2 and 3 would usually result in summary death, when your target smeared you into the ground. The rule change has removed the danger of a negative outcome. That's a far cry from "the same as before".

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:25 pm**

Scurvy Cur wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:19 pm Don't tell me the perspective I'm writing from. I know it, you don't.

You wrote down a number of opinions. Expressing how things have changed to favour a pickpocket. They have not.

The only thing that has changed, is what can be stolen and the need to roleplay before attacking a pickpocket and what can be stolen has been significantly reduced.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:30 pm**

I wrote down a number of facts responding to what I assume is a sincere belief on GrumpyCat's part that things are hard for pickpockets right now. I presume GrumpyCat would want to know that one of her assumptions on the state of affairs was not correct.

By your own post, you admit that the recent rule change (not the by now year and a half old rework to the pickpocket system) has changed things for the pickpocket. You cannot say this, and also say that "nothing has changed" and expect to be taken seriously.

Please note, I have refrained from offering any opinion on whether the current rule change was an improvement or a detriment. I certainly have such opinions, but my discussion thus far has been cabined to whether GrumpyCat's fourth point that pickpockets suffer hardships is accurate.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:44 pm**

A few points:

I would not say things are tough for pickpockets PRESENTLY - in fact I agree, they're better than they've ever been in many ways! But it is still tough if you want to use it in any sort of PvP manner. Because people get REALLY angry about having stuff stolen from them.

Murder someone? Eh. It happens.
Pickpocket someone? I WILL KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY! THE FIRES OF HELL HATH NO FURY LIKE UNTO MY VENGENCE! FROM THE ABYSS I SPIT AT THEE!!!!!!!!!

PPing is always going to be a bit rough if you're found out, to put it mildly. Putting in a system that makes it even easier to be 'outed' makes it even nastier.

And in fact, one of the reasons why I'm against the NPC idea, is that - having played a PPer myself once or twice, I've found it always best to take from NPCs and I'd rather not have a system that degrades that all over the server.

If it's a choice between
*Steal from NPC, get very very little gold, and have a chance of being spotted, attacked and, if you arn't killed by teh NPC you'll be outed to other players and be end up villifed by them.
*Steal from Player- Hopefully get quite a lot of gold! and have a chance of being spotted, attacked and, if you arn't killed by teh NPC you'll be outed to other players and be end up villifed by them.

The PvP option gives at least a better payout... but I'm not sure we really want to incentivse that?

If you're referring also to a recent rule change where one can no longer kill PPers immedatly without rp, there was also a suggestion there that the PPers DO NOT get notification when they've been spotted. I for one actually very much support that idea, and I think they shouldn't now that the rules have changed.

But I also think that making guard npcs attack is a step in the wrong direction too.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:55 pm**

I'm pretty sure I highlighted exactly what Scurvy is describing as an incoming issue to upper staff when the rule was put in, along with a request it be re-evaluated to require both sides to rp.

This isn't some unknown surprise event.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:01 pm**

The GrumpyCat wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:44 pm If you're referring also to a recent rule change where one can no longer kill PPers immedatly without rp, there was also a suggestion there that the PPers DO NOT get notification when they've been spotted. I for one actually very much support that idea, and I think they shouldn't now that the rules have changed.

But I also think that making guard npcs attack is a step in the wrong direction too.

Yes, this is what I'm referencing.

I actually think an ideal system would incorporate some of what you're saying.

Do not let the pickpocket know when they've been detected, and also delay any gold payout for a successful attempt by a few minutes, to prevent the connection between "didn't get gold" and "therefore got detected" from being so easy to immediately draw.

I would not say things are tough for pickpockets PRESENTLY - in fact I agree, they're better than they've ever been in many ways! But it is still tough if you want to use it in any sort of PvP manner. Because people get REALLY angry about having stuff stolen from them.

I would also add that my above referenced experience was 100% with using the skill on players. I didn't bother with NPCs.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:08 pm**

Scurvy Cur wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:01 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:44 pm If you're referring also to a recent rule change where one can no longer kill PPers immedatly without rp, there was also a suggestion there that the PPers DO NOT get notification when they've been spotted. I for one actually very much support that idea, and I think they shouldn't now that the rules have changed.

But I also think that making guard npcs attack is a step in the wrong direction too.
Yes, this is what I'm referencing.

I actually think an ideal system would incorporate some of what you're saying.

Do not let the pickpocket know when they've been detected, and also delay any gold payout for a successful attempt by a few minutes, to prevent the connection between "didn't get gold" and "therefore got detected" from being so easy to immediately draw.

I would not say things are tough for pickpockets PRESENTLY - in fact I agree, they're better than they've ever been in many ways! But it is still tough if you want to use it in any sort of PvP manner. Because people get REALLY angry about having stuff stolen from them.
I would also add that my above referenced experience was 100% with using the skill on players. I didn't bother with NPCs.

1) Yeah that sounds like a great idea.

2) Good point. Sorry I musread slightly. Sorry about that.

I still however hold that having npc guards attack upon successful spots would be messy in a number of ways though and is (with the exception of Shadovar, and maybe Dis?) a bad idea.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:12 pm**

Yes, I don't think NPCs should automatically attack, except possibly in the Shadowvar outpost. And that's only to create symmetry between the target (who already gets attacked for retaliating) and the pickpocket (who presently does not). As a broader mechanic, automatic NPC attack is a bad precedent to set.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:15 pm**

Definitely remove the warning if you are spotted/caught by a player.

The victim player should be RPing themselves noticing a pickpocket, not the action log. That is a really out of place warning that robs the agency of the ‘victim’ to respond, but allows the PPer to flee immediately using what is really like the OOC ‘disguise broken’ warning.

The victim cannot engage in PvP because they have not RP’d.. even though the pickpocketer can respond as though their victim has responded IC, by running as they have been detected. It’s uneven.

Currently, if my PC is robbed and I want to subdue the thief, I have to stand and type out some words, whilst the thief is already halfway across the map. If their first notification of being spotted is me shouting ‘Hey thief!’, and they choose to run, I am now legitimately able to subdue them.. odds are I still won’t catch them, but I have a chance now.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:16 pm**

Perhaps it would be less work to simply disable the ability to pick pocket in the area?

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:19 pm**

You know, the thought occurs from what you said grumpy, about murder vs PP. Why not have a PvP death drop that same cash as a PP in the same way? That evens it out right? (unless you were referring to the times where people were taking like a stack of addy etc. )

Posted: **Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:12 am**

Scylon wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:19 pm You know, the thought occurs from what you said grumpy, about murder vs PP. Why not have a PvP death drop that same cash as a PP in the same way? That evens it out right? (unless you were referring to the times where people were taking like a stack of addy etc. )

I mean... maybe? But I think I'd rather the message be 'people shouldn't get so worked up about loosing a bit of gold.' rather than 'let's make death hurt the same amount too?'

Nekonecro wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:16 pm Perhaps it would be less work to simply disable the ability to pick pocket in the area?

That would also be a very good way of doing it yeah.

Arelith

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