Arelith

Hi,
I wonder, if there is enough foundation to have both of these skills.
Actually they do the same (disguise), only perform is a must have for songs.

On the other hand, there is a lot of moments when items are giving both (bracers), because those actually are the same.
On the other hand, there is few weird situations, when there is class item and then the class/path/subdivision cannot profit from it (e.g. Fey warlock pact, bonus to perform, but the warlock chest armours give bluff).
Same goes with some subraces and such.

Personally, I would recommend to fuse those two, or at least give all items (which gives one) the other also (like it is already in the cha bracers).

It's been brought up before and I still think that craftable items with both bluff and perform bonuses should receive an artificial -1 property count for runes. I still hope to see that being a thing. That way you'd only need a greater rune to enchant a ruby amulet a second time which would be good, as that item is meant to be a cheap compromise rather than an end-game piece. You'd also be able to enchant an addy bracer of persuasion a second time (currently the only addy bracer that cannot be).

The logic here is that no character ever invests and gets value of both skills.

Mimic also doesn't benefit from soft bonuses, only hard ranks (in both skills), so it's really not game breaking at all to have the two skills count as one for the purposes of enchanting.

Well, the issue is not only about the crafting items, but that is part of it.
But some subraces gets just bluff. Imagine yuan-ti disguiser bard. You throw away one of few bonuses of the race, even tho you are specializing in the disguise. It is just.... weird.
I would at least give all subraces, which has bluff bonus the same perform bonus.
That is really no way you ever go both of those skills.

Cagus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:41 am

Well, the issue is not only about the crafting items, but that is part of it.
But some subraces gets just bluff. Imagine yuan-ti disguiser bard. You throw away one of few bonuses of the race, even tho you are specializing in the disguise. It is just.... weird.
I would at least give all subraces, which has bluff bonus the same perform bonus.
That is really no way you ever go both of those skills.

Sometimes this happens.

Half-Orc is an excellent race and getting ambidexterity for free without needing to meet the dexterity requirement is an awesome little hack. But some HO characters don't build around two weapon fighting and the feat is wasted.

Some Gnome players just like the CON bonus or the flavor of the race and don't do anything with the illusion bonus.

I could go on like this. In my opinion the devs are not under any obligation to ensure that racial goodies should be as good as possible for all possible builds and play styles. And I think the same principle should apply to gear/class abilities. I've used plenty of items that carried useless bonuses to particular skills just because the items were otherwise good.

I recently played a rogue with the following useless or nearly useless bonuses from gear:

-Spot bonuses on two items. My build uses listen.
-Taunt bonus from bracers. This was not a taunt build.
-Intimidate bonus somewhere. Maybe it was also the bracers? This was not an intimate build.
-Perform on some otherwise useful item. I was not a perform build and probably didn't have a single level in a class that can easily take ranks in perform.

Furthermore, I like that either bluff or perform can improve disguises. One makes you a better bard, the other improves dirty trick, and either one is useful if you care about neither of the above but want to be good at disguises.

Arelith is a role playing server and a lot of class abilities, racial abilities and gear sets are going to give random bonuses that exist because they're flavorful or allow for some creativity in crafting builds. I have never expected 100% utility out of every class ability, piece of gear or racial ability (unless that race is human).

Waldo52 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:22 am

Half-Orc is an excellent race and getting ambidexterity for free without needing to meet the dexterity requirement is an awesome little hack. But some HO characters don't build around two weapon fighting and the feat is wasted.

I think you are missing the point. The thing is that you are specializing in doing exactly that action.
With your example, it would fit as argument, if you had a race, which has dual-wield, but you had to get TWF and ambidex anyway. It is not perfect example, but closer.

Second point (but marginal) is that orc nor gnome are award races. All races with this bluff bonus are award races (3x greater, 3x major).

The point is not to utilize every single point to any skill you manage to dig out somewhere, just that these two skills can be merged to one and it would be only less confusing and advantageous in QoL way, as it brings more options and flexibility with races, which specialize exactly in doing particular action (of disguise).

Personally, I'd like to see a few different skills combined for ease of access and also reduction of skills bloat.

Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Spot + Listen = Awareness
Bluff + Perform = Masking
Open Locks + Disarm Traps = Bypass Security

And so on.

We have the granularity in skills because that's what 3.x D&D did.

Combining some of the skills would make playing some characters less painful, and build up options for more diverse characters.

Rei_Jin wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:01 am

Personally, I'd like to see a few different skills combined for ease of access and also reduction of skills bloat.

Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Spot + Listen = Awareness
Bluff + Perform = Masking
Open Locks + Disarm Traps = Bypass Security

And so on.

We have the granularity in skills because that's what 3.x D&D did.

Combining some of the skills would make playing some characters less painful, and build up options for more diverse characters.

I want this so bad. There's so many skills needed and so few skill points. I know we got given more skill points at some point not too long ago, but .. even more skills have become important since then.

Even my very high int characters can't afford most of their "essential" things. I've got non int casters with 16, 18+ int just for skills!

Rei_Jin wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:01 am

...
Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Spot + Listen = Awareness
Bluff + Perform = Masking
Open Locks + Disarm Traps = Bypass Security
...

I was actually initially intending to include something like
(in your format:)
Intimidate + Leadership = Personality
but in the rigid world of arelith dev I wouldn't even dare.

Btw. I am not sure about OL&DT, for those even use different stat.

Rei_Jin wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:01 am

Personally, I'd like to see a few different skills combined for ease of access and also reduction of skills bloat.

Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Spot + Listen = Awareness
Bluff + Perform = Masking
Open Locks + Disarm Traps = Bypass Security

And so on.

We have the granularity in skills because that's what 3.x D&D did.

Combining some of the skills would make playing some characters less painful, and build up options for more diverse characters.

Sounds good on paper. Current gear wouldn't even be bricked after the upcoming Dweomercraft rework, as you could just place a new skill in the place of the one that got merged with the point buy system.

Cagus wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:32 pm

Rei_Jin wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:01 am

...
Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Spot + Listen = Awareness
Bluff + Perform = Masking
Open Locks + Disarm Traps = Bypass Security
...

I was actually initially intending to include something like
(in your format:)
Intimidate + Leadership = Personality
but in the rigid world of arelith dev I wouldn't even dare.

Btw. I am not sure about OL&DT, for those even use different stat.

OL/DT would be the only one I'd be nervous to see combined - and that's purely because it being difficult to max out both skills simultaneously without playing a build that is purely devoted ONLY to quarterbreaking and is functionally worthless at everything else is the only thing really keeping QB'ing cheeseballery in check.

So I've had this... realization.. on why bluff and perform arent being combined. I dont actually know if that's the reason but it seems like a reason.

Bards need 70 perform for their song, but then they can still push it even higher (because perform sources are designed in a way that leaves you some space aka you dont have to take gift of perform and you dont have to take ESF perform to reach 70) and then further push it even higher than that with Masking Melody, and easily each 110+ perform.

So to me it seems like Bluff is kept around for balance reasons, so as a separate skill from perform, it can be boosted higher than perform through gear, allowing none-bards a chance to compete with bards, because in the absence of bluff and superior bluff gear (in theory), we're leaving none-bards about 20 points behind bards which is a lot.

I really cant think of another reason for why we even have both of these skills around rather than just one.

another reason is that it's hardcoded and the behavior can't really be changed. the skills can be removed, but then you're relying on the behavior of an existing skill. imagine if every perception check behaved like listen and there was no other nuance for finding people in stealth. the silence spell would completely counter it.

what good are hard ranks in perform when one only need to craft it on an item.

Achsah wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:09 am

what good are hard ranks in perform when one only need to craft it on an item.

Hard ranks in Perform are what allow you to mimic stats and mimic races.

perform imo is made for bards. if hard ranks are expendable and replaceable by money or a helping hand to improve ones alleged specialty just to keep her song = to her level then what is this bard really doing but taking hard ranks in the rp sense when I could just ask someone in some faction close to me to give me a better "show" by magical means that a crafter should have no clue about unless another bard. bluff should be given more power so to speak to those that want an rp build that can make it hard for any spell or potion to penetrate.. the long term rp values of this is questionable for my rp talents but there are those can that pull it off if they can rp anywhere but skal; the only place I saw many disguised toons. cheers