Arelith

Dear Arelith Development Team,

I wanted to take a moment to express my thoughts and concerns about the direction in which our beloved server, Arelith, is heading.

As a developer and avid player of Arelith, I have seen the server evolve and grow over the years. I understand the desire to continually improve and add new content, but I fear that we are losing sight of what makes Arelith so special.

In recent updates, it seems that there has been a focus on adding and completely overhauling more and more classes. While I appreciate the effort, I believe that this has led to a lack of balance and unnecessary complexity. It's frustrating to see the scope of various classes continuously expand, making it difficult to keep up with changes and creating an imbalance in the gameplay.

As a fan of the source material, I think we should return to the design decisions that follow it. Rather than adding full classes, I suggest that we focus on introducing more prestige classes. Prestige classes add diversity and complexity to the game without sacrificing the base balance of the core classes. They also provide opportunities for players to specialize in unique roles while still adhering to the core mechanics of the game.

I urge the development team to reign in the scope creep and focus on refining the existing content before introducing new ones. Let's work together to create a balanced and immersive experience for all players. Arelith has always been a server where players can escape reality and lose themselves in a world of magic and adventure, and I believe that by returning to our roots, we can continue to create that experience for years to come.

Thank you for your hard work and dedication to Arelith. I hope that my thoughts will be considered and that we can work together to make Arelith the best it can be.

I like that there are changes all the time lol. I get antsy if there are no updates for a week. I get some of the frustration around having a class you are playing changed on you, it happened three times to me in the span of two years where a character I was digging didn't survive the changes. But it sounds like that sort of thing is taken into consideration a lot heavier than it used to be, based on what devs have said.

As for balance, the truth is it's an illusion and always has been. I started playing here pre loremaggeden and pre damage immunity during timestops, and I often hear old heads refer to that period as a time of balance. But the truth is there were only three builds that the pvp junkies considered viable, and all of their strategies came down to "getting the guy you are fighting to waste his timestop first, surviving that, and finishing with your own timestop." Thats not really balance, that's just everyone using the same overpowered strategy creating the illusion of it.

But here's the thing. Balance is completely unnecessary in the face of the mission of the server. It strives to be a roleplay server, and on a roleplay server it's not only acceptable but actually makes sense that sometimes you roleplay the guy standing next to you being a bit scarier than you are. That doesn't mean that some things don't turn out to be too good, obviously that has happened in recent history a few times. But a little variety in power levels between the classes is not only fine, its 100% on theme imo.

For everyone who says they're going to leave because a change goes in, I (and I'm sure more than just myself) would have probably gotten bored and left without interesting changes that push me to make new (or adjust old ones) role-playing concepts with these new mechanics. It's absolutely the best thing about this server.

Does it suck to have your character "ruined" by changes? Sure, but the threshold of "ruined" people tend to use these days are -1AB/-1AC to what they had before, which is being overly concerned with the exact numbers on a role play server.

I've always hated monks. From both a developer sense in how much it allowed broken stuff (no, monks were never in a good state) to playing one. Now, I'm actually considering making a monk eventually for the first time in the nearly 20 years I've played this game.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:46 pm

Balance is completely unnecessary in the face of the mission of the server. It strives to be a roleplay server, and on a roleplay server it's not only acceptable but actually makes sense that sometimes you roleplay the guy standing next to you being a bit scarier than you are. That doesn't mean that some things don't turn out to be too good, obviously that has happened in recent history a few times. But a little variety in power levels between the classes is not only fine, its 100% on theme imo.

I have played here since the server has existed, for what it's worth.

As to you and Xerah, I don't disagree with changes being good, and content and development being fresh. I appreciate your enthusiasm for updates and changes to the server. It's always exciting to see new content and features being added, and I understand the desire for continuous improvement. However, I must respectfully disagree with your perspective on balance.

While I acknowledge that balance is not always achievable in every aspect of the game, it is still a crucial component of creating a fair and enjoyable playing experience. The lack of balance you described in the past only perpetuates a toxic meta-game of players striving to find and abuse the most overpowered strategy. This can ultimately detract from the role-playing experience, which should be the central focus of our server.

I agree that variety in power levels between classes can be appropriate and even beneficial to the role-playing aspect of the server. However, there is a difference between variety and imbalance. When some classes are too powerful, it can create a sense of frustration and imbalance for other players, especially in PVP scenarios. It's important to strive for a level of balance that ensures all classes have their strengths and weaknesses, without any one class becoming significantly overpowered.

In summary, while I understand your perspective, I believe that balance is crucial for creating a fair and enjoyable playing experience, especially in PVP scenarios. Variety in power levels can be appropriate, but only to a certain extent.

I certainly never said that balance isn't important. Getting things within 10% of everything else is the ideal, obviously, it's never going to be perfect.

The complexity has become somewhat of an issue IMO.

Last time I checked the build compendium it contained over 80 optimal melee builds to choose from. While that can seem awsome at first glance, the amount of information that it asks from the players to absorb can be rather overwhelming.
Furthermore this introduces a very strong factor of hidden information to any PvP encounter (since all that one can usually see is just a random angry dude holding a sharp stick).

If basic D&D is yathzee, Arelith NWN experience feels more like a game of rock-paper-scissors right now - both games with a very high factor of variance and low emphasis on player skill. While I'm personally not opposed to that, it kinda seems to me like there's been a lot of effort put into going a full circle here.

Finally, it all sends somewhat of a mixed message - while high variance game dynamics usually aim to make the game more inclusive for newer players by leveling the field with more skilled players for them, one glance at the build compendium paints a different picture entirely.

The build compendium isn't exactly something that is posted everywhere on Arelith. It's out there on discord, sure, but plenty of people try Arelith without it. Any game that has a high level of customization choices is going to be "complex" but you can easily figure out how to get by with a little bit of help (which most people do before playing a game) reading wikis or googling builds for what ever you're doing.

If someone plays the server and feels very frustrated that their build doesn't work, then there's a high chance they may give up. On the other hand, if someone says "I want to do X concept", it's much easier to link them to a build and say follow this. If they don't like the server for other reasons, then fine, but at least having a non-functioning build isn't one of them.

I don't see any mixed message here.

Basically:

• step 1) study all the builds and familiarize yourself with a vast number of options, then optimize optimize optimize
  before
• step 2) you get a shot at a random game of silly numbers

^ that's all backwards

The complexity would probably scare me off if I was arriving today. I’m used to it though and do appreciate the cleric and warlock changes in particular.

I would say something that is lacking is guidance from the devs on how they see overhauled or new classes being played. Like when they drop you could give us a few examples of what you see as good sample builds for new and casual players who want to try it out but don’t want to deal with asking other players for help on Discord, where learning who and where to ask is a challenge in itself.

Most of the devs do release recommended builds with these big releases for those exact reasons.

Monk is obviously a way off and it would be silly to do it now until numbers and everything is finalized.

Xerah, you don't have to scold me like I'm being an unreasonable or entitled jerk (again), I think what I said was completely fair and politely stated. I'll believe you that it happens but if you look at vigilantes and liberators for example there are no suggested builds available on the wiki and it's a little difficult to know where to even start unless you delve into many pages of old forum posts or go ask for help on Discord. That's a recent example but it's something I've wished for many times before with huge changes- with the update just say "here are a few suggested builds for newbies/dummies" or something.

I'm sure it isn't binary and builds have been provided (I can remember cavalier being the case, and thank goodness for that because the weapons table is pretty complicated) but we're getting pretty far away from D&D and base NWN and you have to develop a new set of instincts for how to make a character and to second guess what the developers are thinking. Maybe this isn't even possible because of all of the options, I don't know, but it's a feedback forum so I'm expressing my sense of being always out of the loop.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:48 pm

Basically:

• step 1) study all the builds and familiarize yourself with a vast number of options, then optimize optimize optimize
  before
• step 2) you get a shot at a random game of silly numbers

^ that's all backwards

Is this really on the devs though? Or just the player culture on arelith that over prepares for a pvp fight that may never come?

Spriggan Bride wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:51 pm

The complexity would probably scare me off if I was arriving today. I’m used to it though and do appreciate the cleric and warlock changes in particular.

I appreciate the sentiment here. I have no idea what the new monks do really beyond a quick once over. Hell, I couldn't tell you what a hemomancer is compared to a pyromancer or whatever yet, and that's been out for months. But on the flip side, that also means that if someday comes and I play one of those classes I have an entire new game to learn. To me, that's a bonus and not a downside.

And really, at its core, the game is still the same. I pray for good rolls and try and kill you dead with what my character does well before the theoretical you does the exact same thing to me. That is, unless one of us has stealth and knows how to corner effectively. Then the game is just nonsense.

How on earth your read scolding from that, I have no idea. I was agreeing with you; it would be best if they were in the announcement post.

Anyway, warlocks, paladins, and spellswords were released with a bunch of builds for different types and I remember cavaliers were as well. Kenji usually releases his build testing spreadsheet also.

Can't agree with OP more. I had the opportunity to level a seeker. My 2nd level 30 since joining Arelith, and when changes occurred that side-lined him it killed my complete desire to play him. With monk changes on the horizon, I'm really glad I made that choice now instead of 2-3 months whenever monk rolls out.

Xerah wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:05 pm

Does it suck to have your character "ruined" by changes? Sure, but the threshold of "ruined" people tend to use these days are -1AB/-1AC to what they had before, which is being overly concerned with the exact numbers on a role play server.

I don't think its always -1ab-1ac though.

Just some examples from my own experience-

My fighter/cot/wm build lost 4 ab, saves, and divine wrath duration.

My dex bard went from being the third best option for a bard to just garbage with the bard boost, because they made fat bards (con bards) so much better than everything else instead of just being the hardest to kill.

And my ten level loremaster had to be completely reimagined if i wanted to continue it, meaning i was out a reward, when the class was lowered to five to make it more powerful.

You and I are mostly on the same page here, and like I mentioned above I think the dev team has responded well to the criticism about lost characters since those days. But reducing it in such a way doesn't really account for off meta builds that may have needed that one ab or one ac to be viable, let alone the classes that were hit much harder. I'm not trying to call you out here or anything, I just don't want that part of this whole thing to get lost in the shuffle.

It seems like the goal with the class changes is to try to make "pure" builds - straightforward builds - more common while still permitting variety in how that manifests. If that's the preference of the admin team, adding more prestige classes is going to directly counter that.

Alyxnia wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 4:51 pm

As a developer and avid player of Arelith, I have seen the server evolve and grow over the years. I understand the desire to continually improve and add new content, but I fear that we are losing sight of what makes Arelith so special.

Interesting that you think only now has Arelith begun to change too much, despite your being here since the server has existed. Personally, I stopped beating that drum years ago. The Arelith that I used to know may as well be a different server. I've long since stopped holding out for a sense of continuity or a set of first principles. What I thought to be the "fabric" of Arelith was completely arbitrary, really just the state of mechanics, values, and culture that, for no reason one way or the other, were left in peace for the years that happened to be my formative years.

It's important to note I wouldn't necessarily want to go back to the "Arelith that I knew" because there have been countless wonderful and innovative new features and QOL upgrades I couldn't do without. However the endless tinkering under the mantra of "balance" feels very MOBA-brained to me. Some of the new content doesn't inter-operate, instead presenting their own vertical complexities, games within a game, created of whole cloth, and the lack of consistency between these non-integrated mechanics and user interfaces and gameplay philosophies gives the feeling at moments of a grafted-together Minecraft server from 2013. I don't mean to be harsh or dispiriting toward volunteer labour, but sometimes I wonder why a nearly 20 year old niche roleplaying server requires its core mechanics changed and amended on such a frequent basis? Who are we trying to fool here? This isn't a retail MMO. This isn't an esport. There was a sense of necessity and urgency with the big overhauls in 2016-2019, and with a change in management and leadership I understand there was a desire to blow off the cobwebs and interrogate functionality that was taken for granted. But its like that project never ended. Arelith has been in its "change change change" epoch longer than the period of stasis I remember from 2011-2015.

I've made my peace with the changes I don't agree with, and there are only very few that have truly altered my playing experience negatively. It is always sad logging in to a vault of no-longer-viable, "dead" characters, but what really prevents me from returning after periods of hiatus is the poor documentation. It seems as though the only way to become reacquainted with the server is to find the last update one remembers in the announcement thread and work forwards. Settling on a viable build requires one to be a Discord archaelogist or to have active, build-maker friends, lest you pick a build plan that predates an extinction event update. The wiki unfortunately is not very useful for discovery or association, and functions more as a handy reference for the player who already has a mental model of the state of gameplay and mechanics.

Marsi spitting 3 paragraphs of unfiltered truth.

Marsi said it very well.

Part of me likes changes. New toys are fun. Some new classes are a blast.

Part of me is overwhelmed. I mean I try to just focus on what I'm playing right now which is usually complicated enough but if you're getting into PVP you're going to want to know what other builds are capable of too and it's just so much to keep up with.

Part of me is frustrated with things like runic sequencers and even ammo templates that I know solve problems for devs but add a lot of unintuitive complication on the player side. I guess new people keep showing up and aren't scared off though.

All of me knows it really doesn't matter how I feel and this is going to continue so I'll just keep playing as well as I can. The dev team obviously enjoys the sport of tinkering with classes and mechanics and they're running the show.

I feel like this picture when I remember Arelith is supposed to be a D&D based game server, for how drastically it has changed over the last few years. The changes seem to be coming so fast that if anyone were to stop playing for any small amount of time, they would very quickly end up with a mountain of changes to parse before they could re-enter the game with any idea of how to play.

Za-Lord~s Guard wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:20 am

Arelith is supposed to be a D&D based game server

I completely agree with your sentiments regarding the changes over the past few years. It's important to remember that the server is based on the 3rd and 3.5 edition of D&D, and that prestige classes were how build diversity was added to characters using those mechanics. Kitbashing poorly thought-out mechanics from newer editions (5th edition paladin oaths, cleric paths, etc.) can often lead to a jarring experience and detract from the overall immersion of the game, especially when the changes are so sweeping and frequent, like the spellcraft changes for example.

While I appreciate the efforts of the development team to continuously improve and update the server, it's important to ensure that changes align with the source material and maintain the overall balance of the game. As you mentioned, changes coming too frequently can make it difficult for players to keep up and understand how to play effectively.

Ultimately, it's up to the development team to ensure that changes are thoughtful, well-considered, and in line with the spirit of the game. As players, we can provide feedback and encourage the team to focus on preserving the core elements of the game while adding meaningful new content. I hope that the development team takes some of this feedback to heart.

im a loremaster not a code/mechanics boy so i feel comfortable posting this from a "dev" account

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Marsi said.

I'm a bit sick of logging into my vault and staring at characters that need immediate relevels and whole new builds - and the problem is only getting worse over time.

As for making new characters I stare at the wiki, I stare at build spreadsheets, and then I finally stare at chargen and just give up and go play Red Alert 2 some more. It's literally why I've taken to writing for the server instead - I don't have to actually play, and that's sad.

I personally wish there was more focus on working on roleplay tools rather than classes (which seems to be what 80-90% of Arelith development is about). If the drive instead was to be working on conflict resolution tools, faction and settlement mechanics, player-given writs, so on...I guess what I personally want from development is new and improved ways to interact with my fellow players (that isn't bashing them on the head with a new combat ability). I know I'm only one "style" of player of the many that coexist on Arelith, but I'm less interested in classes and meta and number balancing and more into roleplay. It'd be nice to see roleplay-focused development happening, you know? Not to say it doesn't happen of course! Just that it feels like for every 'manacles' update, there are a hundred 'balancing pvp meta' updates.

A second, related thing:
New stuff is fun, but it can also be overwhelming. The actual nature of development changes aside, something I struggle with is the staggering pace of those changes.
An example: I looked through the Announcements thread on Arelith's Discord, and - not counting the April Fool's stuff or DM announcements - there were 58 development updates in March. In one month.

I've talked about this before and I remember getting the response from the admins that the devs are all volunteers doing stuff on their own time, picking whichever projects interest them, so stuff gets released as they finish it. That's totally fair. Makes sense. It's a double-bladed sword; inspiring that there are so many volunteer developers making neat things, but increasingly challenging to stay up to date (particularly as the wiki and other documentation sources aren't simultaneously updated) as the devs roll out so many changes.
To be honest the inundation has made me a bit apathetic. I've mostly given up on keeping up to date and just hope I don't get hit with breaking some new rule that was buried under 30 other announcements. Heck, if this is the normal pace of updates, maybe the 'announcements' and the 'developer updates' could be two different sections.

Aradin wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 5:04 am

I know I'm only one "style" of player of the many that coexist on Arelith,

Even if it's only one style, based on what I have heard people say over the years I have been playing Arelith it's a style category that I think the vast majority of players fall in to. And your point about more conflict resolution tools certainly hits home with me, and likely many others.

But ...and of course there is a but... I think thats less on the devs, and more on the combination of the hands-off philosophy of the server when it comes to dming, and the static nature of the server. It's not that I don't get why things are the way they are, no matter which way you turn there are pitfalls when it comes to a nwn server, but there is no doubt in my mind that the obsession with pvp spawns from here. If more folks were doing cool things along the way that made them feel like they accomplished something with the time they spent on arelith, even the most far gone pvp junkie would start to take notice and want some of that.

Just as an add on, I have made that point before a few times now, and I actually do think that things are moving in the right direction. I haven't been playing for most of the past year or so, but reading about what went on with the war at sea definitely made me smile. Stuff like that just needs to happen more, so here's to hoping there's more slow burning stuff coming up.

I'm not a player that writes well.
I'm not actually able to follow or had even thought of what was written here which after reading, does make sense either way, yet somehow i still don't quite follow.

As a player and with my very simple view, I'm very glad that new content are always added and updated.
Regardless of what contents are added, I felt the vibrancy of life in an otherwise more than 20 years old game.
And that's just me, a simple player