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Overall Feedback on Wiz/Sorc in Current State

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 5:11 pm
by Inordinate

This is a companion thread to my review of Wizard Specialist choices and feedback for making them actually viable compared to Enchantment. I wanted to give feedback after playing a Wizard for some time, soliciting feedback from numerous knowledgeable builders and active players who understand both Wiz/Sorc and the infinicasters that have been added in the last few years.

This will eventually be joined by a Spellmageddon 3.0 Spell update thread where I go over all the spells one by one. Eventually. One day. This feedback is to be followed by the Specialist Review thread (already posted), the Spells Review Thread (one day), and a suggestion that will be posted about Arcane Flux (very soon).

After the tl;dr, I explain my logic for each bullet point so my radical suggestions aren't devoid of why I seemingly pulled them out of my rear.

Reference thread on Wizard Specialists: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=42908&p=324544#p324544
Reference suggestion on adding Arcane Flux to Sorc/WM and improving percentage: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42910

The tl;dr summary

  • Epic Spell Focii provide spell replenishment chance for that school. Specialists increase that chance further

  • Dweomercraft: Expand the spell levels you can add slots for and adjust the cost to match individual save values

  • Add Metamagic: Heighten Spell

  • Nerfing summons without improving Wiz/Sorc meaningfully will break them

  • Revise all Wizard Specialist choices to be on par with Enchantment, make them stand out from non-Specialists and don’t be afraid to make them strong

  • Either give Flux to Sorc and Wild Mage, improve percentages OR only allow Wild Mage access (only if ESF change implemented)


Overview

Wizards and Sorcerers (W/S) both have been largely usurped by the newer caster additions. They mainly keep all the positives of both, shore up the weaknesses and add in new features that make them feel better to play overall. To outline my suggestions, here is how I break down these sentiments:

  • Limited number of casts (and ways to replenish them)

  • Anemic spell selections which limits viable options

  • Over-reliance on summons

  • Loss of class identity

Limited number of casts (and ways to replenish them)
W/S suffer from a lack of sustainable action economy in any PvE content. Cantrip spam for AF procs just to use one spell every few packs is not fun nor meaningful design. Cantrip spam in general is worse than Eldritch Blast spam as at least EB has a wide variety of different effects you can spec into or can carry additional effects.

In an environment where there are several classes with either infinite casts outright or a large amount of sustain capability W/S has been drastically left behind. We’ve hit the 1 year mark of the Cleric Paths introducing major spell refund capacities and Hemo/Elemental existing with their focus meters and the general consensus is that what they, and furthermore Warlock, provide are more impactful in more situations than W/S are.

I cannot talk about sustain without mentioning Arcane Flux, so I will save that for its own section. Instead, let’s look at other methods of rewarding player choice in build selection.

For W/S, each Epic Spell Focii should make spells of that school have an automatic chance of replenishment. Specialists should increase that percentage for their Chosen School by a meaningful amount. These would allow both W/S to keep up with the other more sustainable class options.

The Cleric paths all focused on maintaining the Divine Favor buff to benefit from the refund chances; the paths, however, also give wildly different capabilities to the Cleric, encouraging multiclassing and widely expanding their capabilities without losing much, if anything at all (I’d argue they are better than non-pathed counterparts). None of the current options for Wizard or Sorcerer greatly change the class fantasy as a dedicated spellcaster like the paths do, nor do they gain non-spellcasting capabilities that make them resemble something else. Thus making such capabilities innate feels equivalent to me.

Caster gear is fairly binary: you work towards your class staff, your class robe, the class helmet, and the rest are usually dweomered gear to meet stat and skill desires. Placing spell slots might have been an option but they come at too great a cost to justify in a world of needing 70+ Discipline to not get deleted in a PvP encounter (or PvE in some instances) and needing Spellcraft to shore up poor saves (if you aren’t a DivSorc). Expanding the spell levels you can add slots for and adjusting the cost to act similarly to individual saves would allow people to add in precious slots for just a bit more sustain in content where they see fit.

Anemic spell selections which limits viable options
If you’re a Sorcerer, you select specific spells at almost every spell level or you are severely limiting your capabilities at the one thing your character does. Every caster has Time Stop. Every caster has Haste/Mass Haste. Divination Spec or Focused characters have one spell at 4, 6, 7, 8, AND 9 of their school. Most have at least two, several having four or more at the higher levels. Most of this can be fixed with not just adding new, impactful spells but adjusting existing ones to not be so one-trick ponies.

I am unsure of how viable this is, but if it is possible to implement a new metamagic feat: Heighten Spell. This would allow lower level spells to be elevated to a higher level spell slot to increase DCs, durations, bypassing the Globe spells. At least for my own experience, there have been times where I have wanted to fit in more or different spells at one spell level but was totally unable to justify compromising the spells I already had available to me. Sorcerers would at least be able to look at lower level spell circles for spells that might be worth pumping the DC on. Existing examples include Ice Storm, Crushing Despair, Spinal Tap, Soul Scour/Feeblemind, Fireball, Balagarn’s Iron Horn, Web.

Over-reliance on summons
Someone put this in a way I do not think I can beat: W/S often feel like the summon to the actual Summons. This is especially true with some absurdly powerful picks like the Deva from Gate or anything from Planar Conduit when it has the lesser Arcane sequencer on them.

Summons are clearly the largest weight the developers actually factor in:

  • Cleric paths mostly remove summon as an option outright.

  • Hemomancer lack of the Summon Creature/Planar lines (outside of Epic spells)

  • Warlock proves that summons can be outright oppressive at times; no Word of Faith? Deal with the often better-than-Weapon Master in your face (and WoF is an entirely different conversation)

Giving W/S more casts doesn’t really solve this issue but gutting summons outright and doing nothing else will absolutely destroy them both in the vast majority of content. I wanted to highlight this factor because I feel that the general discourse about summons will inevitably lead to overcorrection in this area and, without accompanying changes to W/S will absolutely tilt them into Shifter levels of awful.

Loss of class identity
Spellsword was originally a path that felt like a decent option to flavor wizards. Now that Spellsword is its own class with a great presence in melee and all of the high level spell threat of a W/S makes it stand out way more than the W/S standing behind their summon.

Invoker and Hemomancer have a lot of the big spells a W/S would want and, in the case of Hemo, can just keep going and going and going while Elementalist gets very powerful passive bonuses. Both of them, too, can get reduced spell component costs (or free if you monoclass); you know who else gets that? A prestige class you have to apply for.

Warlocks infini-cast many useful spells in the lower circles and avoid the problem of wasting slots on low DC spells by just letting them fish for 1’s. Lose a summon? Bring it back immediately.

Each of these examples takes the concept of a W/S and iterates on it better in some way while the ‘drawbacks’ of these options don’t balance the scales accordingly.


Re: Overall Feedback on Wiz/Sorc in Current State

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2023 1:01 am
by perseid

There's a lot of interesting ideas here some of which I agree with and some that I don't so I'll focus on the parts that stood out to me. As far as summons, I actually disagree with the op in that I don't think balancing wizards specifically around their summons is a terrible idea. It's very true to what the generally encouraged playstyle was in PnP (cc combined with smart conjurations and polymorph effects). That said, I think Wizard needs more unique features tied to their spell foci to help support this style of play, such as some amount of inherent SR to summons, given that both conjurings and animations are in the weird place of being just good enough to be annoying but so easily removed that they may as well not exist after the initial rounds of combat. In this way I agree with the op in that I think focusing on adding more benefits to the spell focus feats (at least for wizards specifically) would be a sensible way to introduce power increases while keeping things thematic.

On the other hand, I just generally agree with the suggestion of tethering spell replenishment to foci feats. I think the current state of Arcane Flux, while sensible from a game design perspective, is at odds with the generally structured flavor of the classes that leverage it. I think it would be a much more interesting feature, and much more encouraging of spell variety, if it was tied to Spell Foci for the different schools and only had a chance to trigger off spells from those schools (with the exception of Wildmage's version).

I will say that of the ideas put forward I'm just not sure about the dweomercraft one. It's nice in theory of course but I see it more as a bandaid solution. Wizards defaulting to summons and cc is a consequence of their lack of spellslots. It's a case where the mechanics encourage what I personally see as the thematic playstyle of the class. In the same way, Sorcerers having so many slots is why they go blasty instead (though yes their lesser number of feats plays a role in this too). I think if the focus is going to be on expanding the amount of castings available to either it would make more sense to discuss the weirdly useful but generally useless nature of Spellbound wands which is largely a consequence of the limitations placed on what can be imbued into them.