Arelith

I want to say how amazing the overhaul has been to Brogendenstein, within the village and surrounding areas. They really made it truly spectacular and beautiful. I love all the effort that has been put into it! Anyone who wants to stay in Brogendenstein doesn't have to travel much for things anymore, which I absolutely love. You certainly won't lack for anything, anymore. (Except Adamantine veins, of course ) Brogendenstein is beautiful and functional.

Unfortunately, I do believe there are issues with some of the changes. Before the overhaul, we had 6 shops in the halls (unchanged), 2 shops in the great grotto entrance, and 4 of them in the village for a total of 12 shops. After the change, we now have the 6 in the halls and 2 of the ones in the village (by the guard tower) for a total of 8 shops. This means that we have lost 33% of our shops (and their revenue) to the update. I think it has even been said that Brogendenstein now has the lowest amount of settlement shops, tied with another settlement.

Edit: I want to clarify. We do have more shops within the area, but they aren't tied to Brogendenstein mechanically.

Of course, the shops aren't the only issue. We have no settlement authority over quarters, either. In both of these matters, someone can defy the rules and authority of Brogendenstein with no real consequence (and it's in Brogendenstein's backyard). These things don't really make lore-sense or mechanically, and I find it hard to explain all this IC (as Purser of Brogendenstein). People are directed to me for mercantile authority, then I am left giving some response about it being out of my hands. It makes it difficult to be immersed in the situation and fulfill settlement duties ICly, as has been done prior to the update. It almost seems like we're encouraged to KB people to handle the situation, but that would be a real detriment to the player experience of all involved.

My character used to post monthly merchant rankings, and it was something that people enjoyed. It gave a motivation to people for shop performance and a goal to work towards. I have withheld from continuing this practice, as I can't collect sales information from the new shops and the ones we lost. (or evict the leasers that aren't up to par/selling prohibited items)

TL;DR:
Brogendenstein has gained tremendously but lost greatly, mechanically and roleplay-wise.

This might be something to look into, yeah. Nobody likes to be evicted, but if folks can move into places and flaunt the rules, it causes a lot of tension that can only really be resolved by kbing every 48 hours and continued harrassment until they leave. There's not a lot of other remedies.

However, I believe that Guldorand has a similar situation with the freeport? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure Guldorand has eviction power over the quarters there. I'm not 100% on that, but that is what is heavily implied.

If this is the case, perhaps some narrative element within the area those quarters are in to imply that they are not protected or administrated by Brogendenstein would go a long way towards implying where lines should be drawn.

The biggest issue IMO is that an inherently Lawful settlement, would simply NOT allow lawlessness and evil acts or the selling of banned material within their borders. Currently these quarters and shops fall within the IC boundaries of the Dominion of Brogendenstein, and within the same area as the Kuldarn Barracks, which is the faction that acts as the Military arm of the settlement. That the settlement currently has no mechanical influence over areas that it certainly has both historical, and currently active RP influence over is a massive oversight.
Also, I find it rather disheartening that an update which added so much to the settlement, also took away a significant amount of influence. The new area is even named "Brogendenstein Village."

SamuraiDuck wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:25 pm

The biggest issue IMO is that an inherently Lawful settlement, would simply NOT allow lawlessness and evil acts or the selling of banned material within their borders. Currently these quarters and shops fall within the IC boundaries of the Dominion of Brogendenstein, and within the same area as the Kuldarn Barracks, which is the faction that acts as the Military arm of the settlement. That the settlement currently has no mechanical influence over areas that it certainly has both historical, and currently active RP influence over is a massive oversight.
Also, I find it rather disheartening that an update which added so much to the settlement, also took away a significant amount of influence. The new area is even named "Brogendenstein Village."

I fully agree. It's a roleplay and mechanical problem that we're facing with this. It feels bittersweet, as every other aspect of the update is absolutely phenomenal.

Paint wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:53 pm

This might be something to look into, yeah. Nobody likes to be evicted, but if folks can move into places and flaunt the rules, it causes a lot of tension that can only really be resolved by kbing every 48 hours and continued harrassment until they leave. There's not a lot of other remedies.

However, I believe that Guldorand has a similar situation with the freeport? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure Guldorand has eviction power over the quarters there. I'm not 100% on that, but that is what is heavily implied.

If this is the case, perhaps some narrative element within the area those quarters are in to imply that they are not protected or administrated by Brogendenstein would go a long way towards implying where lines should be drawn.

While I can see what you mean, I disagree that it's comparable. As far as I know it, Guldorand was designed that way when it was created. Freeport is separate for an RP reason, I would assume. There is also consistency with the zone, meaning there aren't any Freeport shops in the Guldorand main area or vice-versa. Brogendenstein already had some of those shops already, in the very same area that was revamped. The zone is even called Brogendenstein Village. There are two shops in the village still associated with Brogendenstein, and they're also the farthest away from the halls. Now, I don't say this to get those removed from the settlement. It would only make this problem worse, as we would only have the 6 shops in the halls. That would then mean we lost half our shops to the overhaul.

I think it would make sense for all the shops in the zone to be tied to Brogendenstein, but at the very least...I think we should at least keep the shops we lost. If we can at least have that, I would ask that the new three shops be moved into the walls of the earthkin keep. That would, at least, solve the problem of the lost shops and boundary issue.

Edit: I still think it would make little sense for people to be able to game the system by being in the earthkin keep's boundary.
"Hey look at this shop selling all kinds of necromantic/fiendish/evil stuff within the dominion of Brogendenstein. It's sad those dwarves tolerate this kind of thing."

regarding the shops: It is a simple explanation Brogendenstien Has been pretty much the leader of the Earthkin alliance for sometime. After the war and the growth of Brogendenstiens mountain side village The dwarves Ceded the shops both because of the support both the gnomes and halflings gave but also to bring the three races closer together. It was a very generous offer by the wealthy dwarves to send a message of unity to the other members of the earthkin alliance. As a player this is the way I would look at it. As far as rules and such I am pretty sure everyone in the alliance has the same rules. If you see a shop owner violating them just send them a ooc message stating that they are selling contraband to please stop As icly this would not be allowed. If that dont work maybe get a DM inviolved or have a rich dwarf which I know for a fact there are many simply buy the item and destroy it. My two cents I just think there are too many ways to deal with something aside from power mechanics Use RP to grow conflict use conflict to form RP OOC should be used very little and mechnics should not have to be optimized to the point where people have control over so much that they become despots. Frankly passing those shops to the earthkin alliance Makes complete sense in my my Brogendenstien now does not have to worry about Adminstering them which gives them more time to do things dwarves should be doing.

Marius Melanthrantus wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:43 pm

regarding the shops: It is a simple explanation Brogendenstien Has been pretty much the leader of the Earthkin alliance for sometime. After the war and the growth of Brogendenstiens mountain side village The dwarves Ceded the shops both because of the support both the gnomes and halflings gave but also to bring the three races closer together. It was a very generous offer by the wealthy dwarves to send a message of unity to the other members of the earthkin alliance. As a player this is the way I would look at it. As far as rules and such I am pretty sure everyone in the alliance has the same rules. If you see a shop owner violating them just send them a ooc message stating that they are selling contraband to please stop As icly this would not be allowed. If that dont work maybe get a DM inviolved or have a rich dwarf which I know for a fact there are many simply buy the item and destroy it. My two cents I just think there are too many ways to deal with something aside from power mechanics Use RP to grow conflict use conflict to form RP OOC should be used very little and mechnics should not have to be optimized to the point where people have control over so much that they become despots. Frankly passing those shops to the earthkin alliance Makes complete sense in my my Brogendenstien now does not have to worry about Adminstering them which gives them more time to do things dwarves should be doing.

After seeing this opinion, I change my opinion. Please give Brogendenstein administrative control over all of the quarters/shops in the mountainside village.

I feel the current situation was poorly explained to the players and their PCs. Perhaps to let the PCs fill in the missing pieces. I do like the explanation Marius has given. However some players made this into a bug report, thinking it was forgotten to set up.

I disagree with the notion of saying kbing and harassment are the ultimately the only way to deal with lawbreakers IC. But Im sure you didnt mean it like that Paint. To my knowledge no one has done anything yet to catch the ire of the dwarves of Brogendenstein, thus possible RP scenarios haven’t been played through.

Since the shops and quarters in question are meant to be under the supervison of the Earthkin Alliance (I believe that was said during a livestream.), I’d like to see an easily accessible way to file complaints to the Earthkin Alliance IG and IC, for the hard cases. No OOC communication perfered.

serono wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:51 pm

I feel the current situation was poorly explained to the players and their PCs. Perhaps to let the PCs fill in the missing pieces. I do like the explanation Marius has given. However some players made this into a bug report, thinking it was forgotten to set up.

I disagree with the notion of saying kbing and harassment are the ultimately the only way to deal with lawbreakers IC. But Im sure you didnt mean it like that Paint. To my knowledge no one has done anything yet to catch the ire of the dwarves of Brogendenstein, thus possible RP scenarios haven’t been played through.

Since the shops and quarters in question are meant to be under the supervison of the Earthkin Alliance (I believe that was said during a livestream.), I’d like to see an easily accessible way to file complaints to the Earthkin Alliance IG and IC, for the hard cases. No OOC communication preferred.

This is probably the healthier approach, tbh.

And I -did- mean what I said about the kbing and harrassment, but I don't necessarily think it's a good, healthy, or constructive mechanism. A lot of people respond well to being asked to stop doing things ICly. They know there are consequences that can affect their RP elsewhere, and a good talking to can usually get someone to capitulate.

But.

That's not always the case. And when it comes to the stubborn cases you have two choices: Have your authority undermined, making it less legitimate in the eyes of the people of your settlement, or enforce it by any means necessary and possible.

I'm all for creating avenues for conflict, but I honestly think that shop and quarter conflicts are awkward and stupid. I enjoyed how we approached the abuse of our own quarters in Bendir. Rather than kicking people out who 'broke the rules' we just asked them to come in and have a chat with us and gave them a gentle nudge to support the community. That, too, however, required the authority to kick them out. Otherwise, there was no reason to answer our summons at all for anyone who might have been belligerent, or had no interest in RPing with Bendir at all. Considering how few quarters the Bendir area has, it makes sense to be vigilant about the quarters there.

And personally, I think if you're going to live somewhere, you should have -some- interest in RPing in that place. Whether you intend to sow discord and chaos subtly, or try to get involved in the local community. That might not have much of a bearing on the situation in Brogendenstein, and I agree I haven't seen anyone run afoul of the dwarves yet, but it's worth being worked up about, certainly, being concerned about. That's just a personal opinion though. If you don't wanna, you do you.

I think eviction powers leads to better roleplay. It provides an avenue for de-escalation that doesn't include violence. If you don't want to deal with a settlement's rules, maybe don't live near that settlement.

In the interim, if anyone gets murderballed by the Kuldarn for breaking the rules, I guess they'll have it coming. If the DMs find this to be poor roleplay, they know what tools to give people to give them avenues for better roleplay. It's as simple as that.

Edit:
Right, that's probably more of an admin thing. I stand by my statement. Sorry DMs.