Arelith

Recently, there was an expansion to Dis, which we of the non-surface playerbase were grateful for. It added new stores, new quarters, and an overall improvement to the area.

One of the key additions to the area was the Dis Penthouse, which was highly sought after by MANY players and factions.

Now, whilst the bidding (really a lottery or raffle) system has gotten around the whole "first past the post wins" situation, it has done absolutely nothing to resolve population pressures, and the strength of feeling around property and the tension between those who have properties that are sought after, and those who do not.

This is even more extreme for the non-surface playerbase, as the severely limited property options in Andunor significantly constrain growth and expansion, and when sought after properties are sat on by inactive (or perceived to be inactive) factions, those tensions can and do boil over into conflict and unhealthy attitudes and behaviours.

The high volume of property in Cordor, Guldorand, Surface, and Distant Shores, which are almost all (asides from some racial locked locations, nobility locked locations, and Sencliff) open to a large population base allow variety and movement, and give space for conflicts to develop and be resolved (or not) as folks move about, come, and go. There are, in addition, numerous "wilderness" properties which are completely outside of any settlement control or grouping, as well as sub settlements such as Mayfields, Crow's Nest, and Sibiyad, which are all without any sort of official player controlled leadership.

Furthermore, the "surface" (meaning those aforementioned servers) playerbase can bid on and hold leases on properties and stores in Shadow Wharftown, Shadow Cordor, Dis, and the Abyss.

"Surface" characters can choose to take ink, and live on Sencliff, giving them access to potentially bid on and hold leases on two ships, five guildhouses, a tavern, and multiple other quarters which only inked characters can access. Whilst their alignment may restrict them from this option, their race does not, and one can change alignment over time by roleplay.

When this is compared to the range of options for those who are part of the Underdark, the difference is stark.

The vast, vast majority of the non-surface playerbase is restricted to owning property in one of the three district "settlements" of Andunor.

We have no long lease ships currently.

There are three district houses, which are guildhouses for those running the district "settlements".

There is the Dreadnought, which comes with three quarters, and as a district bidding property, is constantly under potential political pressure, as well as being a six crew ship that is hell to run properly.

Otherwise, there are a grand total of seven functional guild houses that we can potentially bid on (yes there is a single quarter guildhouse in Shadow Wharftown, and a multi-quarter guildhouse in Shadow Wharftown that is currently broken and allows access to anyone, I am not counting those).

Of those seven functional guildhouses, two are under district "settlement" control (Greyport and the Devil's Table), two are part of the "Hub" of Andunor (Boreal Keep, Deep Gate Manor), one is near the Upper Tradepost, one is in the Abyss, and one is in Dis.

Of those seven? Two can have their leases held by the "surface" playerbase.

In other words, there are as many guildhouses on Sencliff, as there is in the entire Underdark.

Other than these properties, there are three quarters at the Upper Tradepost, and one genuine "wilderness" quarter.

Yes, the Underdark playerbase can also hold leases on properties in Shadow Wharftown, Shadow Cordor, the Abyss, and Dis, just as "Surface" playerbase can, but we must compete with them for said properties.

THAT IS IT.

No Sencliff for the Underdark playerbase, except for two specific races who must apply before character creation.

No other non-district locations we can expand to.

Whilst property is not essential to roleplay, property certainly can be part of roleplay, and can help build a group identity, and provide a space for roleplay and story telling, character development, and so on.

Right now in Andunor we have multiple factions operating out of a single quarter each, desperate for a guildhouse, or even just to be able to expand their playerbase a little into a second or third property.

Part of the issue can be that property is ugly or unappealing, which is certainly an issue for some of the older parts of the server. The difference, for example, between old Myon, and new Myon with the Elven Quarter after the launch of Guldorand Fortress City, was like night and day.

Property that is cramped and filled with static fixtures, or has a fixture count not in keeping with its size, will be left empty, because they are functionally no better than having a storage vault.

And whilst I will be the first to put up my hand and say that I think some folk get too wound up about property, I can also understand their frustration.

Long story short? The Underdark needs an overhaul of property and expansion of property, and places such as Dis and the Abyss need alignment restrictions on who can bid on them.

The choices made by staff to create the situation as it is, is acting as a throttle on population growth and expansion, and creating frustrations and bitterness.

I do not believe that choices are being made to create a negative environment, and I am not saying that players are not grateful for what we do have, and for the expansions that have been made over time. But in my opinion, more needs to be done, and until it is done, there is going to be conflict created by such, both IC and OOC.

I generally agree with Rel_Jin here. There is a noticable imbalance. Personally, I also find it questionable RP when good aligned characters own properties in inherently evil places.

I feel compelled to point out that the Treadstone Locks also has a LOT of property there, which helps and given the amount I feel really should be added for fairness as a point.

Also Dreadnaught is a 'long lease' ship.

However, that being said I will admit that the above post does have something of a point, there does seem to be a disparity.

I'm inclined to agree. Even taking into account the Treadstone homes, when you compare it to the surface, the entirety of Andunor is relegated to the Underdark if you are a drow or monsterous race, unlike say a Cordorian who can be a citizen and work in Cordor, but just as easily go find a quarter in 8-10 other settlements/areas
depending on race while you wait for the inevitable turn-over of quarters in Cordor itself. Surface race Outcasts can get around this with the wilderness areas or non-lead settlements (like Sibayad/Dis), but by and large they're also stuck to a very limited amount of properties as well, not counting any RP discrepancies between them and the drow/monsters. I've personally seen an arc where a drow house took over the Tenements and disallowed humans from owning quarters there (via RP of course). But that leaves the question - where the heck are they gonna go? Quarters in Andunor proper are very highly contested, and don't go up nearly as often as other settlements do. Going to Dis or the Abyss and seeing 'Yancy the Bendir Cleric of Yondalla' owning a quarter is also a little odd if that's true.

As far as ships go, I've always been of the mindset to remove the Dreadnought from any political tie to one of the Districts and make it it's own stand-alone ship, OR, add a second long-lease ship that is done in this way. So Dreadnought as a Flagship, then another that's more free to be bid on/ran by anyone in Andunor. The Dreadnought as it stands is very akin to a ship being tied to whichever settlement wins it, like if the Flagship of Guldorand was able to bid on by Bendir, Cordor, Myon, and so forth. I've personally seen this lead to IC and OOC squabbles over who wins it, especially in the instances where the Navy or Crew who runs it entirely, isn't actually a political entity in that way.

More quarters and another ship would be a great boon to the UD, and this was a really well-written Feedback, Rei_Jin.

+1 to a very well-written feedback by the OP.

Not much I can really add other than I would like to see Dis homes and shops restricted to non-good only. There is no reason for any good PC to own a shop or quarter in Hell.

I'd go so far as to say there's no justifiable reason for a Neutral character to have any kind of settled presence in hell.

Cataclysm of Iron wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:33 pm

I'd go so far as to say there's no justifiable reason for a Neutral character to have any kind of settled presence in hell.

Debatable, and not entirely the aim of the post - but you might have a point regardless.

Thank you Rei for making this post. I'm glad myself and my fellows haven't been alone in thinking it's a bit ridiculous on how cramped people are when you're not on the surface. Whether the solution is an overhaul of what is already had, an expansion, or adjustments to planar properties - anything will do at this point.

I'll be surprised that -anyone- can bid on the properties in Hell.
If it's possible to be alignment locked in order to bid, it will be for the best so that it does not restrict -anyone- from bidding on it but to bid and win the property there, requires you to be inherently evil ( perhaps having made a bargain to own the property there etc ).

In a sense, if a Paladin won a property in Hell, he's not far from being fallen or perhaps already is.
While it does not make sense for a Paladin to bid on the property, no one is probably going to police on him/her and report to DMs until excessive effort to find out.
The same applies to Nature such as Druids / Rangers and/or Nobilities which are alot more difficult to police about.

While the sign would show the name of the person who bid on the property, i think that it's fair game.
If an evil PC decides on bid on the property, won and own it but still want to continue being a goodie-two-shoes for any other reasons because of being afraid to be found out, there's the disguise mechanic available.

Good post, Rei_Jin.

I would also like to point out that some parts of Andunor are massively underwhelming compared to others, module wise. If you even begin to compare the Sharps to Greyport for a second, things get ugly. Literally, and metaphorically. The place looks and feels absolutely ancient and in desperate need of a facelift, and it has some property issues of its own compared to others. For example, Greyport inherently has 14 or 15 shops tied to it (4 of which is the Tower, and the one up for debate is by the sluice gate - is that Greyport's?) while the Sharps only has FIVE shops. That is ONE THIRD the amount of shops in the District as Greyport. The Devil's Table only has six, but the Table also has the Library, Colosseum, and the Temple. Yes, the Sharps has a temple, but it is a basic NWN 'T' shaped layout that you would find in the OC. The Table's temple on the other hand, is a large guildhouse.

I understand it is a district for the more monstrous races, and overseen by horrifying flesh-hive-mind-drow - but the place could use some love.

I am also not meaning to hijack this thread to shill the Sharps, but while property balance was being discussed I had to get this off my chest.

Excellent post Rei Jin.
I like playing in the Underdark, and what I propose here is only a temporary solution that I dont even like that much myself, but if the Underdark is smaller, players can vote with their feet and stabilize the population distribution themselves. Evil surfacers gang lets go.

I am not sure that the UD needs more property. I feel like there's a lot of options available. To the point that filling Guild houses is difficult because everyone can find their own property. I may be mistaken about that though. But in my experience it was always plausible to find /something/.

That being said, I think an overhaul would be nice. From my most recent experience, I think the guild house spaces need to be examined big time. Instead of reducing property to fill Guild houses I think the UD guild houses really, really, need functionality updates to make them worth inhabiting.

Such as,

1: Adding shops in the guild house.
2: Adding unique usable spaces. A few examples of those might be a prisoner holding space that can be accessed separately from the main quarter or given separate keys to.
3: Adding escape routes? I think given the volatility of Andunor it would make sense some guild houses had an escape route that leads OUT of the city and lets them get in without passing the public.
4: Usable henchmen. Even if mechanically weak, just to like to show off.

The Devil's Table House could use a renovation too. The Sharps has that very cool throne room, the Port has a sort of bar/tavern setup while the Table's features are mostly locked behind a gate and offer the same thing every place has... A meeting room.

I think it would be neat to go a bit bold with District houses and guild houses. For the district house, it might be cool if each district had it's own 'unique' features like a special scrying area, or a warded prison cell, or maybe one of them could offer an arena with spawnable creatures you can battle.

For design, like what creates more RP opportunities? In my opinion, it would be worth thinking outside of the box to just give more value to properties then visual appeal and storage space.

Edit: I think Reijin makes good points by the way, with a good break down showing what other places have in comparison to Andunor.

Splashing down just some random thoughts

1) The issue here is not 'It's not fair that the Underdark doesn't have as many properties as the surface.' - Because frankly it shouldn't. Just a glance over at the portal now shows that there are around 180 players. 40 of those are in the underdark. So say that the underdark at any one time containes approx one quarter of over all population, that doesn't mean it needs the same amount of quarters. It needs the right amount of quarters to hold the population it has.
That doesn't mean, mark you, that I'm neccesarly saying it doesn't need more quarters ect. I've no great feelings on that at all. In fact if anything I think I lean towards a 'Yes, a few more would be nice.' But that the question is - does it have enough to support the population.

2) One thing to consider about Guildhouse quarters, is they'll always be a little less popular than normal quarters because you're effectivly in someone's pocket. This is doubly so for the underdark where paranoia runs so strong. An average quarter ultimatly is your own private sanctum, short of eviction it's yours and that's fine. A guildhouse quarter you can - theoretically - be locked out from any time the owner wishes and that perhaps is one of the things that tends to make them less popular.

3) Any place the quarters would be added would, and probably should, be Andunor or Andunor adjacement. Spreading out the UD population has historically ended poorly and lead to stagnation. Irongron has stated in the past that he doesn't intend to do more settlments in the underdark. So if he does read this and start adding more, expect them to be within/very near Andunor, not some entirely seperate town.

Every time I have checked Sharps or Treadstone in the last month, there have been several unowned quarters. Some of these are unowned for weeks. The Sharps bank vaults had precisely four out of, give or take, fifteen, that were owned, last I looked. There are usually quarters, they just aren't the ones people want.

Eira wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:40 pm

Every time I have checked Sharps or Treadstone in the last month, there have been several unowned quarters. Some of these are unowned for weeks. The Sharps bank vaults had precisely four out of, give or take, fifteen, that were owned, last I looked. There are usually quarters, they just aren't the ones people want.

Those tiny vaults are hardly quarters for people to base RP out of, which is what Rei_Jin was pointing out in their post. All the actual quarters are taken.

Frankly, a facelift or conversion of the Tenements into something better would come a long way in helping alleviate housing problems in the UD. It's no secret most players consider the place extremely ugly and it's only used as a placeholder for those desperate for a quarter, until they can find something better. They feel like a building to house npc workers for the shipyard and not really suited for any remotely competent pc adventurer - and there's a stark contrast with the mass housing buildings on the surface, like many inns, taverns and marketplaces which tend to have very nice quarters, even if small.

I'll also add that I think Andunor has already enough elements to represent it's gritty and "in the gutter" nature and the last thing it needs are more ugly quarters to reinforce this idea.

I'll agree that some of the properties and areas could really benefit from an overhaul. For example, I've held the guild house in the Silver Mines a while, and while initially excited to get the property I've come to realize why so few people bid on it. Besides the general area having an awkward layout, the two house-in-a-cave sub-quarters are undesirable because to actually see inside them requires using pinhole vision - and everybody hates pinhole vision.

I think the tenement building in Treadstone should be kept a place of relative squalor, though. A facelift might be good, still, but having it serve as the run-down apartment building where new characters can grab a cheap flat is a good thing. Keeping it barebones helps to ensure there's always some vacancy.

I never liked vaults. I don't see them enabling much RP at all. If space is a concern I'd say yank em and add another couple of floors of tenements instead because at least you get a little privacy there for meetings. IMO having a sad little flophouse apartment because it's all you can find for now is great for aspirational RP. I've been in a few memorable meetings where a faction or group of some kind is starting in one of those rooms and thought the squalor element was great for that.

On the flipside, imagine telling some folks you have a house in the most expensive part of Cordor and then taking them to a bank vault and forcing them all to scooch inside for your clandestine meeting. Not once, when questioned, do you admit that it's a bank vault, despite the naked truth.

If it helps at all, here’s my reflections, area by area.

1. Treadstone/Gnomish Shipyard (burn the gnomes)

   • Most of the properties are okay, but the tenement is terrible and needs an overhaul.
   • Fix the cost of quarters in the tenement; some of them have ridiculous rent costs.
   • The stores should have their value increased, as they do not go up for bidding currently.
   • The nicer quarters should have their value increased, as they do not go up for bidding currently.
   • All quarters in this area should not allow slaves to hold the lease on them mechanically, which they currently do.
   • This location is currently not under the control of a district, despite it being a district bidding location technically. Not sure if this is intentional or not.
   • The Dreadnought ship should be a rental without an internal quarter, with the current internal quarter moved to the Dreadnought crewhouse. This would mean that the controlling district gets a three quarter guildhouse and a rental ship that requires six crew, but as it is a rental it does not need to ever be upgraded, and it does not get barnacled, so it need only be used for proper sailing.

2. The Hub/Wheels/Deep Gate

   • DMs need to more actively manage this area, as it is the premium UD location. NPCs should be monitoring folk here like hawks, and making demands of them if they are store or quarter owners. Higher expectations due to the location.
   • The Spider’s Web Tavern should be able to be owned by a player.
   • Add more quarters in the Spider’s Web Tavern.
   • Fix the cost of quarters in the Spider’s Web Tavern; some of them have ridiculous rent costs.
   • The Boreal Keep needs to be placed under standard locks, as one cannot break in without stealing a key from someone, or tricking their way inside.
   • The Boreal Keep should become a district bidding property.

3. Upper Tradepost

   • Add two more quarters to the Ogre Fist trading building.
   • Increase the cost of all quarters rent here by a factor of five, as they are outside of district control. This includes the guildhouse just outside the Upper Tradepost. This encourages active use and not idling with them.

4. The Sharps

   • Add a noble only guildhouse to the Sharps; the other districts have one, why not here? Ensure it has 4 stores under its control, to match Greyport.
   • Increase the fixture limit on the three quarters that share a map in the first part of the district, or split them off to their own maps each.
   • Add two more similar quarters to this area, replicating the three just mentioned to bring it to five.
   • Add two more quarters to the cave.
   • Move the Gondolier over to the opposite side of the canal.
   • Add one more store where the three external ones are, so that it matches the other districts for external stores.
   • Yes, the vaults in the bank often go unused; folk want quarters, not just storage. If all that was wanted was storage, then I would just suggest to add more vault locations into other districts.

5. The Devil’s Table

   • Add a banker in here, in the Colosseum.
   • Reduce the number of quarters in the Temple to one, so it replicates the Temples in the other two districts.
   • Add 4 stores to the outside of the Manor, so that it matches Greyport.
   • Increase the fixture limit for the Manor, or split it into multiple maps.
   • Add two more quarters into the library.
   • Add one nice “champion’s” quarter to the Colosseum

6. Greyport

   • Turn the circular building near the gate to the Red Tower into a boarding house, similar to the Hog Pen in Guldorand, themed for sailors coming to port. Both the Sharps and the Devil’s Table have at least one “boarding house”, but Greyport has none. At least five quarters, with one nicer one and four standard ones.
   • Increase the fixture limit for the four quarters which share a map, or split them onto separate maps.
   • Split the Red Tower into multiple internal maps, as the fixture count is far too low for a property of its size.

7. Saltspar

   • Add a new guildhouse here that overlooks the Undrenzee. Nobility only, with four stores.
   • Increase the fixture limit of the prison, and give it an increased floor plan; at the moment it’s a hideous property that has almost no functional use.
   • Add in some of the upgrades given to the Cordor prison to the prison here.

8. Other

   • Two more wilderness properties should be added in somewhere in the module. Preferably one that is a sprawling cave set up, and one that is in some ruins yet somehow has been maintained.
   • I understand that more ships are being added into the module with the launch of the Undrenzee. I ask that either Saltspar become a new district of Andunor (if that is where they are to be based) or that Saltspar itself not be district controlled as a bidding property like it currently is, to reduce the amount of political interference that could happen with said ships through the bidding process for control of the area. If the prison is expanded, having it as one bidding property and the Ferry as the other is sufficient; Saltspar itself should either be uncontrolled, or its own district. If it is changed to be independent, increase the rent by a factor of five.
   • The Zurkhwood grove is fine as it is in terms of property, although it could use a visual update.
   • Please please please update the Silver Mine. It is terrible, as a “guildhouse”. No-one wants to have to pin-hole to look inside their quarter.

I'd like to see some more wilderness quarters in the underdark.

I'd also add to Rei_Jin's comments about the Table, by suggesting that the District House be renovated into a more drow-style, given its location - and that the estates in the Table require renovations, as most of them are single-room areas at best with no bedrooms (the storage capsule in each place takes up most of the sub-room its in).

These are really all points for Irongron to comment on - but there's a few that stand out to me that I'll bring up in the mean time. A lot of these points are pretty good though, I'm just pointing out some of the spicier ones.

- All quarters in this area should not allow slaves to hold the lease on them mechanically, which they currently do.

If you know of a slave pc owning none slave property, (excepting vaults and perhaps rooms in guildhalls) then let us know. I'm by no means against mechanical barrs from slaves owning any none slave property too, but I've a feeling that it would would prove difficult - esp with people made slaves in game- for mechanical reasons. I'd add though, that if we did put a mechanical ban on slaves owning property, it should be everywhere (bar vaults/guildhouse rooms/slave rooms) not just on the Treadstone.

- This location is currently not under the control of a district, despite it being a district bidding location technically. Not sure if this is intentional or not.

I think this is intentional. One of the big... issues with Andunor (and it's more complex than it seems, neither good nor bad) is that it's hard to get away from the politics. Having a bunch of homes in a relitivly neutral but not entirely out of the way area is very important. I can see an argument for it being part of brokerage, sure, but I think given the very competative and dangerous nature of politics, having a reasonable area not under district controle is also quite important too.

- The Dreadnought ship should be a rental without an internal quarter, with the current internal quarter moved to the Dreadnought crewhouse. This would mean that the controlling district gets a three quarter guildhouse and a rental ship that requires six crew, but as it is a rental it does not need to ever be upgraded, and it does not get barnacled, so it need only be used for proper sailing.

If this happened - then unless some check was made to ensure that only members of a certain district could access/use the Dreadnaught, it'd make the brokerage for it entirely useless. So it would have to come with a door that checked citizenship, or removing brokerage for the Dreadnaught and such. Maybe that's a good idea? IDK. But this is an aspect to consider with this suggestion. (Again - not saying it's a bad idea, but a point to consider)

- DMs need to more actively manage this area, as it is the premium UD location. NPCs should be monitoring folk here like hawks, and making demands of them if they are store or quarter owners. Higher expectations due to the location.

We don't tend to activly police shop useage like that. I don't honestly know that our team ahs the time/energy/interest to put into this goal. That said if you feel that people are hogging property, do report it.

I realize all my comments come early on - but the reast of it doesn't strike out as anything too complex? At least nothing I've got the confience to comment on one way or another. I will say I can imagine Irongron adding SOME more wilderness properties, sure, but probably not a lot - as it's really best if Andunor is kept the 'hub' (pun intended) of player activity.

Also.

I'd also add to Rei_Jin's comments about the Table, by suggesting that the District House be renovated into a more drow-style, given its location - and that the estates in the Table require renovations, as most of them are single-room areas at best with no bedrooms (the storage capsule in each place takes up most of the sub-room its in).

Devils Table is not a Drow district. It tends to lean that way because of it's aestics, but it's not actually any more 'Drow' than Sharps. The main difference between the two is not Monster race Vs Drow but rather Chaos vs Law, and whilst that slightly leans to those two subsects, it's by no means dependent on them.

The GrumpyCat wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:49 am

- The Dreadnought ship should be a rental without an internal quarter, with the current internal quarter moved to the Dreadnought crewhouse. This would mean that the controlling district gets a three quarter guildhouse and a rental ship that requires six crew, but as it is a rental it does not need to ever be upgraded, and it does not get barnacled, so it need only be used for proper sailing.

If this happened - then unless some check was made to ensure that only members of a certain district could access/use the Dreadnaught, it'd make the brokerage for it entirely useless. So it would have to come with a door that checked citizenship, or removing brokerage for the Dreadnaught and such. Maybe that's a good idea? IDK. But this is an aspect to consider with this suggestion. (Again - not saying it's a bad idea, but a point to consider)

Thanks Grumpy for your thoughts! Just on this one...

This is why I suggested keeping the guildhouse for it, as one could then put the rental sign inside it. Then, only the "owner" of the Dreadnought guildhouse, and the district leader for the district with current control of it, can access said property without otherwise being given access.

This ensures it remains under district control with the bidding system.

Rei_Jin wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:59 am

The GrumpyCat wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:49 am

- The Dreadnought ship should be a rental without an internal quarter, with the current internal quarter moved to the Dreadnought crewhouse. This would mean that the controlling district gets a three quarter guildhouse and a rental ship that requires six crew, but as it is a rental it does not need to ever be upgraded, and it does not get barnacled, so it need only be used for proper sailing.

If this happened - then unless some check was made to ensure that only members of a certain district could access/use the Dreadnaught, it'd make the brokerage for it entirely useless. So it would have to come with a door that checked citizenship, or removing brokerage for the Dreadnaught and such. Maybe that's a good idea? IDK. But this is an aspect to consider with this suggestion. (Again - not saying it's a bad idea, but a point to consider)

Thanks Grumpy for your thoughts! Just on this one...

This is why I suggested keeping the guildhouse for it, as one could then put the rental sign inside it. Then, only the "owner" of the Dreadnought guildhouse, and the district leader for the district with current control of it, can access said property without otherwise being given access.

This ensures it remains under district control with the bidding system.

Ooooh I see! Yeah! Actually that's quite clever.

IMO ships in general should probably take the form of rentals with sign placed inside quarters rather than being quarters themselves.

I've noticed a trend of 7+ people pushing themselves on a cog despite having access to a fully operational long-lease brig/galleon/flagship.