Arelith

Edit: the post will remain unedited for historians, but note that I was salty when I posted this, and have shifted gears to proposing solutions instead of just complaining
Hello,
As a non-good character operating on the surface I have noticed many unsavory things from surface good-aligned groups like Cordor Gaurds, Cordorian Elite, and the Radiant Heart. In my observation these groups are extremely trigger happy, eager to validhunt, abuse technicalities, and even metagame in order to kill anyone they might even suspect as being evil. It feels like the good characters are quite happy to have minimal RP in order to start a fight, one which due to the nature of their pocketbooks and vast numbers of max level paladins, they know they will win.
I have seen relatively minor RP events become escalated by the gaurds, using cheesy language in order to be strictly within the PVP engagement rules, such as "Did you just threaten me?" when no clear threats were made, only an attempt to start a fight. It feels like the "good" guys (especially of Cordor) are much closer to lawful evil than anything else.
I don't have a smoking gun, I didn't bring receipts, nor am I making any specific accusations, it just feels like the "good" characters act far worse, and more eager to fight, than even the denizens of the Underdark.
If it were just me I wouldn't say anything, but you'll hear very similar stories from all characters who are either evil or disagree.
It's hard to not be salty, but it just feels like there's zero point in trying to build tension, narratives, or interesting plotlines or relationships due to all of these issues.
Evil toons rise up and share your tales

Keep in mind that just because someone is on the surface, doesn't mean they're good aligned.

My main observation, which isnt really anything new, is that people who threaten status quo will just get ignored and excluded. Sometimes by people who never met them IC before. Always been the case. On the surface it is usually someone who isnt perceived as "good" being excluded by those who are at least perceived by the public as "good", but that's just a symptom of the wider problem, which is not alignment related per se. But with that said, I think a player can do a lot to mitigate that, like simply hanging around and letting folks get to know you as a sensible person before you push any agenda or ask to join the faction.

In regards to PvP specifically, I honestly dont really share the experience of the OP. I think people actually tend to just ignore the evil guy rather than risk pvping with them (and I say it sadly). And if you act in an antagonizing manner when you're heavily out-numbered that's kind of on you. I dont feel like pvp is hard to avoid.

cordor is MEGA evil

but if you see abuses of the be nice rule you should generally report it.

I have had bad experiences myself and have my own opinions, but I have also met people who are up for the roleplay too.

I've made similar observations myself and the morality of surface faction has repeatedly been a topic in RP as well.
That said, I don't think it's a bad thing if a good chunk of the surface is pretty much team evil as well...although it led to a few amusing moments where traditionally evil people as per the lore have consistently acted more benevolent than those you'd expect to be good!

If anything, there's a very few specific groups (that I won't name here) who I feel might want to double check their RP at times but overall I don't really see an issue with a somewhat evil surface.

I've played in Cordor a lot and for a very long time, so I'll chime in.

I wouldn't consider Cordor a 'good aligned' Settlement at all nor do I think they have ever been or have pretended to be. There are people there trying to do good and there are people who don't care or actively run evil plots or do bad things.

Being a Cordor elite I guess, I can't say I see the Cordor Guard in its current form really being a bunch of bullies. I've certainly in the past seen the Cordor Guard attack people over very small and insignificant things too such as bringing a summon into the city. The current Guards I think are very inclusive and tolerant towards evil and criminals (sometimes maybe a little too much). Of course, you always have one or two outliers where someone can't exactly handle the authority and power they now have as a Guard and go overboard. We do try to address that ICly, but often these things don't get reported to us. So can't really do much if no one tells you these things are happening. I also wouldn't assume people metagame. The Cordor Guard is often one of the best informed groups of people around. Many reports are written ICly and dossiers kept. But if you suspect metagaming then I definitely do recommend you create a report with the DMs who can investigate whether information was sourced legitimately.

As for the Radiant Heart, again there are good people and bad. I know a lot of the people from the Chapterhouse are very inclusive and often very happy to bend their RP and facilitate baddies or let a story unfold. Really, the same can be said for Cordor. I know plenty of people there who have let evils get away with things just to let them build more of their story or to bend a little to let things develop.

Every single Settlement has these issues. Whether you talk about Myon, Guldorand, Cordor or a District in Andunor. There will always be people who are quick to seek physical conflict and resort to PVP or lording their (often perceived) authority over others and there will always be people who are collaborative, inclusive and flexible. It also tends to go in cycles where atm maybe Andunor is a chill and relaxed place but then a bunch of people make new characters and that changes.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:47 am

My main observation, which isnt really anything new, is that people who threaten status quo will just get ignored and excluded. Sometimes by people who never met them IC before. Always been the case. On the surface it is usually someone who isnt perceived as "good" being excluded by those who are at least perceived by the public as "good", but that's just a symptom of the wider problem, which is not alignment related per se. But with that said, I think a player can do a lot to mitigate that, like simply hanging around and letting folks get to know you as a sensible person before you push any agenda or ask to join the faction.

In regards to PvP specifically, I honestly dont really share the experience of the OP. I think people actually tend to just ignore the evil guy rather than risk pvping with them (and I say it sadly). And if you act in an antagonizing manner when you're heavily out-numbered that's kind of on you. I dont feel like pvp is hard to avoid.

I won't bother trying to make my own post when this one sums up my thoughts so well.

My advice for surface Evil is to simply get away from the settlements. Most can be very cliquey, with one or two being held for some real-life years by the same factions. Trying to attempt change, more so if it's evil change, to those locations will only see you frustrated, excluded, and burned out.

That being said, I do find that once an evil PC stops operating in a settlement (or more simply put, stops trying to change the status quo there) they will be ignored unless some great evil plot of theirs threatens the location. Is this Bad or Good? Who can say. In the end, this is a game we all play to have fun in our own way and so long as you are enjoying yourself, well that's what matters.

So leave the settlements, find fellow evil-doers, hang out, do schemes, and have fun! Leave the stuffy settlement RP to those groups who enjoy it. That or go create your own settlement. It's been done before after all.

I just learned a few nights ago, that Silk's real name, is now out in the ether... And I can take a guess how/why, but even though that method works most of the time, I took great measures not to interact with Cordor too much because of the Examine spams and TS pops... No one should have her real name beyond a select few, because -ward and True Sight was active when she revealed that name.

And we - the guild I'm in - we ALL know this was a metagame. Reporting it to DMs rarely gets the results, because... well... you can't stop the meta train once you're on it.

DMs have said it before, to not use Examine and TS too much when you see a "Fake Name". Because if there's no RP done, no one should suspect/try to look beyond the name. You're acting on an OOC mechanic - which is the very definition of Metagaming. It is not just being meta, but you're ruining someone else's gameplay by not being nice.

And if you've never interacted with someone, you can't know the name on a shop/door belongs to X disguise. You have to actually do the RP work here to catch your bad guy, people. How do you know X is actually Y? There has to be several females in and out their room/home. How are you 100% sure the name plate matches the identity? So yeah... I was metaed. I'll likely roll with it though.

I'm not the only one forced on this meta train, within my faction though. Something most egregious happened very recently where good guys wanting to win, used OOC mechanic knowledge to try to out a guild member's disguise. Seen the logs myself. It's ugly. RP no where suggested anything funny was going on. So this behavior does need to be talked about in general, I agree.

Team Evil exists to provide RP entertainment. Add new story threads. Enrich and give new conversations. We are not here to have people try to auto-win a RP against us with meta because they want to jump straight to PvP. Nor are were here only for PvP. The meta used to jump to PvP has gotten out of hand, I agree. But the fact Team Good from certain settlements and/or factions seem ONLY to want to PvP with us? That's also really telling. Because... We're a RP server. That should be the first desire, not PvP.

It's disheartening to hear you've had problems, sadly I think most of the time when someones name gets out despite everything, it's because of shops / quarters. I really do feel like they should have names obscurred unless the person inspecting it owns it / has eviction permissions.

Perhaps even use disguise names if applicable for temp stalls? I'm not sure if there's any reasons for not doing that, but I feel like it'd be an improvement, especially for people wanting to dabble in the dubious and untoward.

I don't have much to add in the whole group psychology discussion at this time but I do have few tips to share from playing a number of characters that gained the ire of the masses. Maybe it will help some of the hapless warlocks out there trying to make an honest living under lawman's yoke:

Avoid central hubs such as the Hub or Cordor government district- More specifically The Hub within vicinity of the portal and Govt. District right in front the message board. Everywhere else you can breath pretty easily- even when you encounter the pursuer elsewhere they probably aren't prepared with all the short buffs and friends, pressured to fight before they wear out.

Scrying protection and disguise are good to use even if you don't have bluff because a lawman can only break it at a certain range. We have -dissaportal and playername obfuscation now which are wonderful. If they aren't aware that you are skulking about they aren't actively looking for you.

Be mobile- Not only because you're harder to track down but it's more fun to have a moonlight walk or enjoy a waterfall while discussing how to bring about the apocalypse than being locked up in a quarter imo.

People tend to move on pretty quickly if you aren't easy to track down and don't publicly taunt them.

It can be lonely to be the villain but fortunately there are areas like the shadovar trade post.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:47 am

Sometimes by people who never met them IC before. Always been the case. On the surface it is usually someone who isnt perceived as "good" being excluded by those who are at least perceived by the public as "good", but that's just a symptom of the wider problem, which is not alignment related per se. But with that said, I think a player can do a lot to mitigate that, like simply hanging around and letting folks get to know you as a sensible person before you push any agenda or ask to join the faction.

I've expressed this to some people before and they got pretty mad at me, but I believe there is a simple logic to understand. Characters come and go in mere weeks at times. You should try to get involved in a community with time. Show that you intend to stay around. People are used to characters starting something then disappearing a week later. I don't think it's wrong to benefit from actually ingratiating yourself with a community and helping them to get to know you.

Hin_Justice wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:55 pm

I just learned a few nights ago, that Silk's real name, is now out in the ether... And I can take a guess how/why, but even though that method works most of the time, I took great measures not to interact with Cordor too much because of the Examine spams and TS pops... No one should have her real name beyond a select few, because -ward and True Sight was active when she revealed that name.

That sucks. I know what that's like. Ive seen people examine break disguises in the early levels then just call that person by their real name the next day. Sometimes it's not even malicious. Inexperienced rpers sadly don't always think these things through.

As an expression of my own experiences, I've always played very slow burn characters and rarely have I dealt with problems through this method. People always know my character by the time I actually begin doing things.

As for plots, they do exist. Being in the Underdark, Ive both been the target of, uncovered, and manipulated anti-UD plots employed by I think Myon? I know Cordor. Maybe the Radiant Heart? I honestly don't know who orchestrated a number of them, but the one my character managed to manipulate to his own ends was Cordor. They did some pretty zany stuff (not an insult, it was quite amusing and effective,) and I even went through the effort of having a small party outside of their meeting in Hell to let them know, "Hey. I know. :)"

Honestly, it all depends on who is playing. Yeah, sometimes the Cordor guard can be a little iffy, depending on who is currently a guard. And sometimes it's my favorite faction. Both as an ally and an enemy. I will say, yes, sometimes the "good guys" only seem to think about death. But one of my favorite pvp starts did involve a solo paladin meathead straight up pulling a Leroy Jenkins on his side that made everyone on the evil side able to joke about it afterwards.

And the rule also goes the other way. Hell, the Black Archers have a horrible history of pvp mongering. And I've also seen them just do tracking and interrogation and basically making associates of the Underdark just feel hunted without actually pvping them. At the same time, the Underdark sucks sometimes. When it's all just raids, raids, raids, it absolutely sucks the life out of the community on both sides and the "good guys," or perhaps, "the Surface," loses its patience for anything.

Everyone's a victim of bad faith roleplay sometime or another. And it all comes down to who's playing what.

Edit: As a note, there is a FOIG way to bypass concealment for divination. Don't trust what you say to stay safe without a ward. As Victor Green likes to say, "I am always watching."

Your concerns and observations are valid OP. It’s worth mentioning, as others have, that not everyone you run into on the surface is good aligned. There are a lot of neutrals and evils out there that can blend in with society. Especially in governments where having someone who’s willing to delete nuisances to your city is often a necessity. That being said, your main feedback is on the dynamic of good vs evil, which I agree has always had a rocky history on the server.

It has always felt to me that “Good” is in a rush to prove itself as “Good” by getting a win on the bad guys. Be that “win” getting the real name, or having information on them, or access to their house, or a PvP win. Sometimes the game aspect of the Good V Evil thing overtakes the collaborative back and forth, which can’t always be helped.

I’ve been wanting to post this excerpt from the handbook for a while now in regards to my thoughts on the subject.

D&D Player Handbook 3.5 Edition, page 104.

“Good” is defined by a respect for life and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings.

“Evil” is defined by murdering, killing, and hurting others. We might say it is the inverse of “Good” because it lacks the respect for life and concern for dignity of living beings.

“Neutral” is defined by having enough scruples to recognize murdering/harming random people is bad, but are cool with doing anything to protect their friends and family, or not having commitment or opinions one way or the other.

Respect and concern for the dignity of life is the important part. While it’s more than likely not everyone you meet on the surface has Good on their alignment sheet, I feel it might be helpful to provide the sourcebook definition of “Good.” A lot of these issues feel like they boil down to a lack of respect/interest to engage in each other’s stories as though they were lives worth participating with. This goes for bad guys too who sometimes are so scared of getting caught “too soon” they fail to engage with others.

*edit
It’s worth mentioning that there are some things that force PvP, like one side forcing an impasse or failure to compromise on an issue. In pen and paper the DM can provide you with plenty of non-violent solutions to get the stolen item back from the thief, in Arelith they either comply or you exile/PvP/pariah/etc, so that’s a consideration for the sourcebook alignment. Still, i feel the spirit of it, ‘respect for life’ holds true.

people really be casting true seeing to try to break disguises? do they not know that doesn't count vs the disguise check?

I was going to say.. True Sight and Clairvoyance don't count towards breaking a disguise. As for spamming examine, you literally can't cause it's on a decent cool down timer. Sorry, but I don't think what you're saying about Cordor people spamming that is really true or valid. Since it's literally not possible.

I think Ad Astra said something important in reference to like being ignored. They said like people wre used to characters starting something then disappearing a week later. I gotta say I feel this alot...

My advice, is like become apart of the status quo to an extent. Like show persistence, regularity as a character, and a respect for what's already there. Earn trust, both IC and OOC and then once you get your foot in the door you can start to nudge it open. I'm not saying betray everyone but I'm saying like prove your value then when you want to change something you're likely to get more like traction.

Edit: I wanna clarify by what I mean by OOC trust. Just that like other players can trust you as a player to be a constructive narrative partner. Someone who is story driven and doesnt pvp all their issues away etc. you don't have to communicate OOC your IC actions will say enough.

Anyone who comes into play without support to change the status quo of any place is likely to struggle.

Of course, nothing guaranteed. So I'd just consider what you want your character to achieve and like what your fun is coming from and if it's not working out? No problem just like pivot. All easier said then done sometimes but, but that's my advice.

Also, sorry to hear about what seems like meta gaming? Just try not to state too many things as face cause most of the time our perception of things isn't complete. Go through the DMs if you have evidence of stuff, report it. It may not be quick but it works out eventually.

If there's evidence the DMs can act for sure.

Royal Blood wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:05 pm

I think Ad Astra said something important in reference to like being ignored. They said like people wre used to characters starting something then disappearing a week later. I gotta say I feel this alot...

My advice, is like become apart of the status quo to an extent. Like show persistence, regularity as a character, and a respect for what's already there. Earn trust, both IC and OOC and then once you get your foot in the door you can start to nudge it open. I'm not saying betray everyone but I'm saying like prove your value then when you want to change something you're likely to get more like traction.

Absolutely agree with this. The first time I made an Andunorian it took me literally weeks of regular play time and actively seeking to join a faction to become part of a group. That's natural. Things aren't handed out to people on a golden platter when they make new characters. You have to work on building a reputation, making friends and allies etc. It's one of the main reasons I don't tend to play alts and I play a character between 1.5 - 3 RL years. It can take a long time to get into a circle of people and it can truly take a lot of effort from you yourself as a player to invest and be bold. Don't push yourself in to the point people start finding you annoying, but just be helpful. Start at the bottom. Join a guard force as a recruit and work your way up or another organisation. You get as much out of your relationships and you put into them. Works like that in RL too.

i think what i've personally noticed is people who are hungry for PvP, be they good or evil, go down a checklist and look for anything that checks the box

are they an outcast? [ ]
are they a pirate? [ ]
are they a halfling/elf you haven't seen before in the hub? [ ]

i could go on

instead of trying to attempt collaborative storytelling with people, there's a tendency for a few to rush straight for the jugular and it's disheartening to see that sort of thing in a place that is supposed to emphasize a shared narrative. i mean, yeah, you're going to have people uninterested in playing ball and sure, killbash those people, but players put the most effort in when they see the player on the other end gives a damn about their character, their motivations, their goals, and so on.

that's especially true of bad guys. when the bad guys aren't being taken seriously and being openly mocked and not in a cool way, naturally that's going to have the player end up out of gas. when the good guys take an interest in the story they're looking to tell, that's sure to get whoever is playing the bad guy excited and deeply interested in the story.

with one of my characters, i had a long-standing conflict with their good-aligned adversary and only twice did it come to PvP, and only once involving the two central characters involved. IMO, it was far more meaningful a conflict than if it had ended up a simple ping-pong PvP slugfest, and I think not just for the two characters centre to the conflict but also to those watching it unfold on the sidelines

so yeah, maybe more of that please

tl;dr: pvp is to actual engagement in story as totino's pizza rolls are to a large NY-style pizza

Second Breakfast wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:54 pm

i think what i've personally noticed is people who are hungry for PvP, be they good or evil, go down a checklist and look for anything that checks the box

are they an outcast? [ ]
are they a pirate? [ ]
are they a halfling/elf you haven't seen before in the hub? [ ]

i could go on

instead of trying to attempt collaborative storytelling with people, there's a tendency for a few to rush straight for the jugular and it's disheartening to see that sort of thing in a place that is supposed to emphasize a shared narrative. i mean, yeah, you're going to have people uninterested in playing ball and sure, killbash those people, but players put the most effort in when they see the player on the other end gives a damn about their character, their motivations, their goals, and so on.

that's especially true of bad guys. when the bad guys aren't being taken seriously and being openly mocked and not in a cool way, naturally that's going to have the player end up out of gas. when the good guys take an interest in the story they're looking to tell, that's sure to get whoever is playing the bad guy excited and deeply interested in the story.

with one of my characters, i had a long-standing conflict with their good-aligned adversary and only twice did it come to PvP, and only once involving the two central characters involved. IMO, it was far more meaningful a conflict than if it had ended up a simple ping-pong PvP slugfest, and I think not just for the two characters centre to the conflict but also to those watching it unfold on the sidelines

so yeah, maybe more of that please

the bard off duel between moira and florentine is peak example of how good v evil can look when players are willing to work off the cuff with one another.

D4wN wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:13 pm

Absolutely agree with this. The first time I made an Andunorian it took me literally weeks of regular play time and actively seeking to join a faction to become part of a group. That's natural. Things aren't handed out to people on a golden platter when they make new characters. You have to work on building a reputation, making friends and allies etc. It's one of the main reasons I don't tend to play alts and I play a character between 1.5 - 3 RL years. It can take a long time to get into a circle of people and it can truly take a lot of effort from you yourself as a player to invest and be bold. Don't push yourself in to the point people start finding you annoying, but just be helpful. Start at the bottom. Join a guard force as a recruit and work your way up or another organisation. You get as much out of your relationships and you put into them. Works like that in RL too.

there's something depressing about the idea that I'll have to commit 1-3 years on a character before established powers take my character's insistence to be part of a space seriously and not as an "annoyance". it also supposes that there's a latent, perhaps undeserved, respect afforded for old characters for having "been around longer."

It'd be nice if our long term characters could consider stories beyond their own as valid and meaningful even if they aren't part of it or haven't seen it. After all, that's what's being expected of new PCs.

It's also interesting you bring up how "tolerant" and "flexible" Cordor is. I have notes regarding how Thomas and Cordor at large behaved with the Tower which I'd be happy to go over with you privately. I can't help but wonder now if part of why we had such difficulty trying to be taken seriously by Cordor is because our characters hadn't been around for 3+ years. Needless to say, it was pretty disappointing.

I don't think it will take that long to become 'relevant' honestly, id say as solid month. But even then it depends on what you're starting with. My character was a settlement leader there are very few character plans she wouldn't invest in. Usually if you ask people will give you the chance to try things out. But that's why I also mentioned most times it feels like characters just vanish.

I really don't think it'll take a year of effort. I think once you kinda find something you enjoy, you're active and engaging with people, you'll pick up speed really fast.

For me, I think it took like 3-4 months. My character was meeting with a lot of different houses socializing etc then finally found her moment to just like jump into things. But that process was fun! And I loved the politics of it all. My character completely failed to win her election the first time. Then a few months later sunk the second one unopposed and stayed there for over a year IRL.

TLDR. It won't take long to get things moving once you find what you want to pursue. But invest in the progress and not just the end goal.

Maybe things are different on the surface? I'm not sure. I think like universally you can kinda determine your own circumstances and by just being a cool engaging character you'll find the RP traction you're looking for.

But maybe threads like these are a good opportunity for longer lived characters to reflect too.

Personally, I'd say 1-3 years on a single character as a 'minimum' is inaccurate, though I don't think that's the point Dawn was trying to make.
Rather, they play those characters for a long time, and as a result, their characters are well known, and have more opportunity because they are established as 'reliable', and continue that route because of the time they put in. Which, is quite a lot, and they've played both evil and good with this. It's a lot harder to suddenly trust Gary Jameson, who's only been on Arelith for a week with planning and information- you simply don't know if they'll be there tomorrow or what direction their character will take.
Now being seen as reliable doesn't take a year, not in my experience. I've had characters who got their foot in the gate in the first week, others in the first month, and become people who have the ability to make changes or run things in relatively short period of time. Some of it is luck, some of it is because I only focus on one toon at a time and therefore am around more and 'seen' more, and usually have some loose idea of a goal in mind that I work towards consistently. But, one thing I'd advise against, is making a brand new character fresh off the boat who immediately comes in and wants a position of power to change everything. That almost never goes over well, for a variety of reasons. Start small, work your way up, if you put in the effort and have a bit of patience, it really doesn't take that long! And don't get discouraged when you get a 'No', ladders of success, whatever that might mean to you or your character, aren't a straight-shot upwards. Rome wasn't built in a day, after all.

As for the main point of this post, Good Vs. Evil when in Surface Settlements...
One thing to remember is the politics at play. Plenty of characters are of the mindset that what they do is for the Greater Good, even if they're committing evil acts. While the Alignment Chart is all well and good as it provides the majority of a character's intentions, it's also really more of a guideline since fitting any one toon completely into ONE of those little squares is extremely difficult- and this is where the term 'Lawful Stupid' is often used, though that might be personal opinion. People in general are complex, this is what makes them interesting.
How factions like the Cordorian Guard (since it was brought up) tend to go, is often ebb and flow between being more chill, more vigilant, more 'trigger-happy', or even more corrupt. The same is true for Andunor, Guldorand, Myon, just about anywhere. If you don't like the direction one place is going at that moment, it's absolutely okay to try somewhere else out for a bit and see if you like it better! That's the best part of RP, you can move around and experiment!
Playing an evil character can be challenging, as you can't outright BE evil in a Surface Settlement, you have to be sneaky, coy, and have a sense of secrecy. It's been done many times with flying colours of success and amazing stories, when they're allowed to play out. Meta-gaming, on the other hand, should be 100% reported. Even if you don't have proof yourself, the DMs absolutely can find out for you.
My recommendation to those struggling with it, would be to either try to play a political evil entity- by being conniving or even a liar and worming your way into high spots of office or a faction to commit your evil deeds behind a security wall, OR, growing your little evil circle of bad guys in a somewhat out-of-the-way location where they may just fester and plan until their targets don't even know what hit 'em until they're eeking out into their cities. But, as above, both take a bit of effort and patience, and that really is where the majority of those amazing stories we all hear about come from. The journey there, not the destination.

Something something real treasure, something something friendship along the way.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:01 pm

people really be casting true seeing to try to break disguises? do they not know that doesn't count vs the disguise check?

If I recall it used to correct? Might be a case of old habits or returned players not up to speed.

Edens_Fall wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:29 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:01 pm

people really be casting true seeing to try to break disguises? do they not know that doesn't count vs the disguise check?

If I recall it used to correct? Might be a case of old habits or returned players not up to speed.

yeah that got changed pretty quick because of abuses: casting true seeing or clair when someone with ooc quotation marks in their name walk out into the street

now not even bard song helps you break disguises. none of the spell effects add any bonuses against it.

From the other side of this, I can say that I've seen a lot of characters do things they weren't supposed to, and were told to 'stop doing that.' A couple of things happen here. One, the person keeps doing the thing and this will escalate into violence. Two, the person will attempt to lobby that they have the right to do the thing, (Lack of jurisdiction, lack of fair reasoning, insisting that it shouldn't be illegal to begin with, etc.) instead of realizing that in the moment, these appeals are useless. Things escalate into violence. Three, they'll bolt off and get chased down. Since the only way to stop someone in Arelith is to subdue and/or kill them, this usually leads to that. A lot of people will opt for the -giveup command, it seems.

I've seen this play out a lot on Arelith. Some players take it on the chin and move on, but some feel like they've been deeply wronged when characters respond the wrong way to how they act. I try to give characters a lot of chances to stop doing the thing, or to comply with the other thing. When they don't, I just assume they want PVP, and I can use the practice anyways.

About metagaming, I kind of have mixed feelings about this.

See, what appears to be metagaming on the surface might actually be a character being noticed by someone who never ends up speaking to them directly about it. I've had a couple of incidents where a witness pointed out a character acting suspiciously, or a character applying a disguise. So even though we never broke that disguise, because we had a trusted witness who saw something fishy happening, or literally saw them apply a disguise, we were right to be suspicious of that person regardless.

A disguise doesn't automatically absolve you of suspicion if you act suspiciously, is mostly what I'm getting at.

Stuff like that can feel like metagaming if you don't know the whole story, especially in the moment. But having a disguise on isn't a foolproof method of avoiding detection or being discovered. Covering your tracks can be difficult to do, but there is a wide berth of tools that Arelith gives people to make educated guesses on. I've tracked someone based on the aura their footprints left before. There are ways to talk your way out of situations like this, and I've managed to convince people who've broken my disguises before that I wasn't who they thought I was.(They weren't very familiar with my character to begin with. That helped.)

So in the end, I guess... When you RP, own your RP. Don't look for excuses. If you really do think something fishy happened, report it to the DMs, but understand that you might not have the full story.

Edit:
As a side note, all of my guard characters have been neutral or evil. I didn't plan this. It's just. How it ended up.

Heya just one more thing from me (for now...),

I'mma spam examine all of you. ALL OF YOU. And it's perfectly within the rules. Examine is an ooc action, it is not something the character is doing. It is a passive check, and I'mma use it as often as I want, also because I just want to read your wonderful 6 paragraphs long description so badly, in between the things I type.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

D4wN wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:13 pm

Absolutely agree with this. The first time I made an Andunorian it took me literally weeks of regular play time and actively seeking to join a faction to become part of a group. That's natural. Things aren't handed out to people on a golden platter when they make new characters. You have to work on building a reputation, making friends and allies etc. It's one of the main reasons I don't tend to play alts and I play a character between 1.5 - 3 RL years. It can take a long time to get into a circle of people and it can truly take a lot of effort from you yourself as a player to invest and be bold. Don't push yourself in to the point people start finding you annoying, but just be helpful. Start at the bottom. Join a guard force as a recruit and work your way up or another organisation. You get as much out of your relationships and you put into them. Works like that in RL too.

there's something depressing about the idea that I'll have to commit 1-3 years on a character before established powers take my character's insistence to be part of a space seriously and not as an "annoyance". it also supposes that there's a latent, perhaps undeserved, respect afforded for old characters for having "been around longer."

It'd be nice if our long term characters could consider stories beyond their own as valid and meaningful even if they aren't part of it or haven't seen it. After all, that's what's being expected of new PCs.

It's also interesting you bring up how "tolerant" and "flexible" Cordor is. I have notes regarding how Thomas and Cordor at large behaved with the Tower which I'd be happy to go over with you privately. I can't help but wonder now if part of why we had such difficulty trying to be taken seriously by Cordor is because our characters hadn't been around for 3+ years. Needless to say, it was pretty disappointing

Firstly, you misunderstand. I didn’t say it takes all those years to build relevance and relationships with a character. I said weeks. But it does help keeping a character around longer to build and maintain a reputation and relationships if that’s what you want. I do think there are examples of characters that have been around for 5+ years and still take every opportunity to hog the spotlight. I think that after your character has been around for a while you should instead turn into a facilitator and let others shine. But I don’t often see that happening. Like what Clu said, sometimes it takes a few weeks, other times longer. But people do tend to naturally gravitate more towards characters who are around a lot, participate in things, are useful and helpful and make an effort to be part of a group. You’ll always have little cliques of people who are OOC friends and just want to hang out together not letting anyone else in. But those are the minority from my experience. I’ve found most factions and settlements to be very inclusive if you actually roll up your sleeves and get involved.

As for the tower stuff, that’s very much an IC issue and the only thing I will say about it is that you shouldn’t draw conclusions unless you absolutely know the context behind what has lead up to that. Which I’m sure you and most others don’t know. There are consequences for people’s actions they take IG and when they eventually explode or come to a conflict then I don’t think at all it’s unreasonable to act on that. I was very very happy to accept any IC consequences for the actions Thomas took there and I can say he had very good reasons to do what he did.

But the lack of people willing to accept consequences for their actions and decisions ICly is another topic entirely. Or people drawing conclusions who’ve not been or barely been involved and draw their conclusions on hearsay.