Arelith

Hello hello hello.
I'll keep this short and sweet(like ya mama) - the illustrious Ice, tenacious Twohand and myself are putting together a pitch to rework Shifter. So far we are using the outline Starfish made quite sometime ago as the 'skeleton' of the operation, and that my friends is where you, the playerbase, come right in.
Whether you're playing a Shifter, have played, want to play, don't want to play, doesn't matter - we want to ask all of you a very simple question...

Do keep in mind it will probably be impossible to make it a 1:1 of the PNP version as seen in Masters of the Wild, but we're gonna try to be pretty damn close if we can. We also haven't submitted the proposal yet as it's not finished, I wanted to get feedback from the community first before going too far ahead.

We're looking to hear of any issues with current Shifter, ideas for future Shifter, and if there are ideas for band-aid fixes to implement in the mean-time while waiting on the actual overhaul.

shifter doesn't even fill the niche it's supposed to fill cuz rakshasha gets all its toys. before you even consider improving the gameplay viability of it shifter needs the ability to actually, like, you know, become anything. shifter should also gain the ability to cast spells while in forms. other than that, i think its just a matter of balancing the forms AB/AC and stats and giving them unique things like regen or on-hit debuffs. maybe similar to AA, it gives a bonus to divine/arcane spellcaster levels based on shifter levels, so a lvl 13 druid/17 shifter would have CL 30 druid spells or whatever.

I am not current on arelith because of IRL stuff but I am a shifter player who spent 5 months getting it so I got very involved in playing a shifter.

I had a list of things that devs wouldn't focus on but they're pretty easy conceptually.

Auto disguise for forms. Good/Neutral forms because this is a WYSIWYG server I can't say that my drow form is actually an elf form and this makes it impossible to shift into good aligned things. Glove merging so that unarmed creatures could get a buff. If this isn't possible then buff the stats of unarmed creatures or the AB of the weapons. I know it is possible to modify the weapons of wildshaped forms and apparently it's pretty easy. Eating food in forms, it really sucks to have to deshift to eat a whole rotisserie chicken and then go back. One of the forms having an actual sailing bonus. Most forms are balanced on the back of only having +2 in a skill from items so giving a +10-12 in sailing would bring them up to par with the skill (even though they wouldn't get +7 from Wisdom gear). Shifting from one form to the next without dropping polymorph would be nice.

Finally and most importantly give kobold something usable. Without HIPS there's really only 2 options being the undead form and the tree. Both aren't infinite castable which is some of the main appeal to me. Alternatively buff any other form with a weapon to the point of usability. It doesn't have to be A tier just C tier, right now most forms are FFFFFFF tier.

I love memes.

The other day met a fey shifter. Horns and hoofs and pretty wings in minotaur form.

However, I don't think many of the people who play shifter are doing it for the meme value, and would submit that before shifter is changed, it is first repaired to de-meme it.

However, should meme be the direction, then please, let us lean into the the source material and imagine Huge Dragon Shape with fluttering pixie wings!

Desired end state (will accept with or without meme flair) More shapes, and a feat for more shapes at every level
Balance to the shapes - since their buffs will be worse than a level 30 druid's, all shapes need to be beefier to begin with so that their max level forms are equivalent to plant shape.

Greater wild shape 1/day (Small or Medium-size, humanoid shape)
Greater wild shape (animal shape, monstrous humanoid shape)
Greater wild shape 3/day (Large or Tiny, beast shape, plant shape)
Greater wild shape (giant shape, vermin shape)
Greater wild shape 5/day (Diminutive, magical beast shape)
Greater wild shape (aberration shape, ooze shape), supernatural ease
Greater wild shape 7/day (Huge, dragon shape)
Greater wild shape (undead shape, construct shape)
Greater wild shape 9/day (Fine, elemental shape, outsider shape)
Greater wild shape (Gargantuan), evershifting form

There should definitely be a progression of forms meant for practical use defined by a clearly envisioned purpose. A tanky shift, a melee or ranged damage shift, a sneaky shift, and so on, balanced to be effective in the role, but not necessarily competitive with someone who has dedicated their character build to such a role. At least, not without similar single-minded feat and skill investments.

Adding more flavourful shift options would open a lot of possibilities, such as turning into a variety of small critters, as well as the ability to shift into the standard PHB races when you get Humanoid Shape. It would add a lot of roleplay potential if Shifters could meaningfully infiltrate a given city by adopting the appropriate shape and mannerisms. They don't need to be balanced to be combat effective; just having the option would be an immense boon to the RP shifters could engage in.

I seem to remember hearing that Shifter may be reworked into its own baseclass. Not sure if that's still on the table, but if it isn't, I agree with the above sentiment that L I C E put forth that it should get some caster levels folded into the class to promote synergy with the classes that can become shifters. I'd love the idea of playing a Fae Pacted Green Hag Shifter, but boy howdy would those Warlock levels feel useless beyond buffing, and even that isn't terribly impressive compared to using potions, wands or scrolls.

All in all, I would very much enjoy playing a shifter, even now. I would likely be terrible at it, but I do love the idea of playing a hag shifter; I'd get to be like that witch from the Sword and the Stone getting into shapeshifting battles with Wizards. I would lose, most definitely, but it would be an absolute blast.

I've always been curious about playing a shifter. The five things I'd like to see, in no particular order.

1) Allow some freedom in the forms we'd like to specialize in. IE: no "you have to be a fairy before you can be an undead" RP.

2) Allow the different forms or types of forms to play differently. I want my rogue form to feel like a real sneak attacker, I'd like my tank to feel like a tank. Unique abilities like regeneration, healing, invisibility or spell like abilities also make forms more fun.

3) Decouple it from druid, 'nuff said.

4) Disentangle it from awards and applications. We've already waited over twenty years to play a sensible shifter and red tape isn't fun. If it's not particularly powerful everyone won't be playing a shifter anyway.

5) Synergies. Froms that maintain caster level and allow you to cast wizard spells, sneak attack dice that scale with other ones, forms that grant bane of enemies to rangers. These are just a few ideas. The shifter might be more interesting as something that adds to your build rather than replacing it radically.

Ok. These are my thoughts on what COULD be done with Shifter if it were to be left as it currently is but with a few changes. Would I love for the class to get a cool overhaul like other classes? Yes, but if thats not happening the class still is in dire need of at least some stat increases and changes to shapes to make them useable. This is all stuff I've been able to change myself editing 2da files and a couple scripts, so it's pretty simple changes. Please note I am not an expert in stat builds.

My Thoughts:

• Basically all Shapes need buffs to their natural AC, AB and a way to deal with Damage Reduction for the non-weapon Shapes. Maybe an increase to Shifter BAB too.

• Make sure all Shapes merge Items and Armor.

• Most Shapes should basically fill an archetype. Minotaur = Barbarian. Kobold = Rogue. MindFlayer = Caster. etc.

• Give Shifters access to Elemental Shapes.

• PC Monster Race Shapes, do the DM Team want Shifters changing into these? Minotaur, Kobold, Drow etc. If not they can be replaced with something similar.

Shapes:

• Wyrmling Shape: If DM team don't want any Dragon stuff for Shifter these could all be swapped out for the various Mephit models.

• Minotaur Shape: Give Mino cleave and Epic Mino great cleave. Make it a HIGH offense LOW defence kind of form.

• Harpy Shape: Turn it into a discount Bard and give it a few songs.

• Gargoyle Shape: This ones kind of alright as is. Useful as a Tank form, just needs small buffs to it's stats.

• Basilisk Shape: This poor ugly dog needs help. His bite attacks do low damage and are blocked by damage reduction. His one interesting ability is his Petrification Gaze but this can only be used a couple times and the DC is low. I would just replace the basilisk with something else entirely, the Petrification niche can be filled in by the Medusa.

• Drider Shape: This could be a decent shape with stat buffs. The issues I have with it are it's obnoxious hitbox shunting things around and the fact it's very similar to the Drow Shape in theme and role. If Drow Shape is staying then maybe make this a Caster style Shape or replace it with something else. If Drow shape is going, it can keep it's current playstyle.

• Manticore Shape: Decent brawler style Shape, just needs stat buffs. Maybe adding a second spike spell that can target a single enemy instead of an area.

• Kobold Shape: One of the only "Good" shapes. Good at Rogue things.

• Drow Shape: Decent Shape as Fighter. Might need something to make it stand out from the other melee shapes.

• Lizardfolk Whipmaster Shape: Change the ugly model, change the ugly model, change the ugly model. Slightly worse than the Drow Shape though it has the Disarm gimmick. Could be changed to be a Lizardfolk Shaman which stand it out more from the Kobold and Drow.

• Dire Tiger Shape: What a pointless shape. Just a big cat. My idea, completely replace it with a Lamassu/Sphinx and make it a Cleric style form.

• Medusa Shape: Generally weak form. Should be changed into an Archer which Medusae are shown to often be. Would give Shifter a reliable ranged option outside of the Caster forms.

• Mindflayer Shape: A Caster form that can't cast spells. Needs it's current two abilities improved and maybe a multi modal spell like Shadow Conjuration to give it some spells and get around the 3 spell limit for Shapes.

• Beholder Shape: Cut during NWN development. Pretty easy to readd back in. Caster specialising in Debuffs?

• Risen Lord (Lich) Shape: The other "Good" shape for Shifters. Acts as the Weaponmaster for Shifter needs no real changes.

• Vampire Shape: Needs the limit on it's Dominate gaze removed. Perhaps made into Monk?

• Spectre Shape: Is a weaker version of the Kobold. With some buffs and tweaks would be fine. The Shifters Assassin form.

• Rakshasa Shape: It's fine as a Caster. Just needs a different choice of spells, perhaps multi modal spells like the Mindflayer.

• Azer Chief Shape: I see this as being similar in role as the Minotaur. High offence low defence. Maybe Knockdown as it's specialty?

• Death Slaad Lord Shape: Not much to say on this Shape. Same model as the wizard spell Shapechange and the Epic Summon. Is fairly robust with it's elemental resistances and regen.

• Iron Golem Shape: Tanky shape. It's alright.

• Stone Golem Shape: Tanky shape needs some changes to differentiate it from the Iron Golem. Maybe make it the toughest shape but can only move super slow.

• Daemonflesh Golem Shape: Rubbish shape. Replace it.

• Plant Shape: No thanks. Remove it from Shifters and replace with a new super feat.

Rocky Mountain Foothills wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 4:59 pm

I love memes.

The other day met a fey shifter. Horns and hoofs and pretty wings in minotaur form.

Thats a bug with my Fey Shifter. I can't help it.

Only happens on the Kobold and Minotaur shapes.

Allow shifter forms to have every slot merge other than gloves/bracers like totem forms.
Give a scaling 3-5 forms similar to totem scaling but specialised.

Tank/War Form, High str, Con, medium AC high con
Stealth form, High dex, medium str, low con
Archer form, High dex, Medium str, low con - armed with permanent range weapon w/mighty that matches its str
Magical form (Infinicaster* with tiered evocation spells, similar to Rakshasha, things like burning hands, Melfs, Magic missile. Wannabe wizard)
5th form could be a combination or generic form. With medium across the board

That stops the need to have to balance 25ish forms. But then allow weapon copying into form (Except archer) and give pickable feats ala Harbinger style which allow the above forms to be given unique benefits. Burning blood, Fake barb rage, "Blinding speed", expanded spell choices. ect. Letting you build your own personal shifter with feats that apply to the preferred form.

Then add a Skin selection menu which is unlocked as you get higher in shifter levels. Also give them the Rakshasha disguise options for shifting. Change their race from whatever base to shapechanger at 10 shifter

Otherwise, Scaling soft ab/ac every shifter level* (Disable in things like plant shape)

Aigyr aka Fluffybirb here.

My credentials: I have played shifter for around 2.5k hours over 2 years in the past. I kinda like the class.

As I'm out of the loop on current meta and my gameplay knowledge is 2 years old at this point (I'm on strike until they fix shifter), I'm not going to suggest any specific numbers. Below is an idea I've had for a while on a way to make sure shifter forms are 'competitive' or at least effective to be used in pve as well as integrate some RP themes or 'fun' into the class.

Shifters in lore are shapeshifters, creatures that transcend form and can adapt to most any situation. I think a neat way to make this possible with the class is finding some way to let them 'learn' new forms like languages by interacting with or defeating mobs. This could represent their 'understanding' of a form, and what it means to be that creature, as well as add a level of engagement into the system that will keep players engaged with the actual world of Arelith. It would be like learning languages or ranger's studied enemies, where a shifter can use a tool to become a mob they can see. They become a copy of that mob with it's character sheet, stats, abilities, weapons, etc. From here it would sit in a buffer of temporary shapes, pushed out as new shapes are recorded. To save a shape and commit it to memory and represent a true understanding of that shape, they would need to kill mobs as it or kill that mob. Preforming enough of these actions will commit the form to memory, allowing the shifter to bring it up at any time. This would hopefully save you time by just copy NPC blocks, models, etc, and if you keep the shifter's gear stats being transferred over, they can still compete against the same mobs in the same area because they have that player edge. As players progress in level, they can take stronger forms and commit new forms to memory/understanding. This would likely work on all mobs except epic bosses due to their sheer power/numbers. I'm not sure how we would make this collection system work, but I think the concept would be super engaging for people playing shifter. It would also allow them a lot of freedom in how they approach situations.

Alternates to this idea would be having some form of 'signature' forms that is a smaller pool they earn through above means. I think that shifters at their core are beings that can fit a lot of molds and adapt to most situations. It was said before, they are a jack of all trades.

Starfish's idea is also exciting, allowing players to focus down paths to various playstyles of forms. Overall, every form needs a bonus to numbers across the board to be in line with at least a summon. It's painful to watch a group of summons do more then I ever could. Please make changing shapes a free action once per turn, a full turn of flat foot just to be able to fight back sucks so hard

I'll likely keep adding to this thread as I think of new ideas and to discuss with others have. I want to say I'm so happy that shifter is finally getting the love it deserves. It's a class with so much potential and has created so many amazing RP situations from my own experience.

Finally, the best forms for RP are as follows: Wyrmling, Rakshasa, Kobold

Fight me.

hot take, but the idea from the first rework was decent. maybe tweak the numbers of something..my main thing is a shifter having the ability to be 'ok' in any form, because the idea of the class is to shift from form to form not specialize, imo atleast

It's been awhile since I played a shifter, but I'd probably want some ways to infer to other individuals that a 'shifter' isn't a [their base race], but rather an individual that has many different forms.

A lot of the RP interactions I had on a shifter were basically just 'turn back into what you were born as' and it really undermined the experience.

I realise this may contradict some views on druids and shapeshifting, but I'd like to see shifters differ in some meaningful way if at all possible.

As for the initial overhaul, it's difficult to comment on as it popped up and vanished overnight; I'd loved to have seen if it would've panned out, and I generally think any cries against shifter are likely a vocal minority rather than anyone actively intending to play or interact with one.

I'm going purely off memory but I think the biggest thing I'd like to see is a viable "jack of all trades" shifter build. If I remember the outline Starfish shared once it leaned towards having most forms but choosing a few to specialize in for added bonuses that would be the workhorse forms. Imo this sort of goes against the spirit of embracing shapeshifting to become an everchanging being. I think having form specialization is still fine but it'd be nice to see a generalist shifter still be at least vaguely competent.

Dumb question but what's this starfish outline people keep referencing?

Am I the only one who thinks that Shifter should be completely detached from Druid?

It seems to me at least that the class fantasy of the two are very, very different. Sure, both of them shapeshift. But that's about where the similarities end.

I prefer the Pathfinder take on it, specifically some of the archetypes. Not a spellcaster by trade, full class levels, and can polymorph.

I think it being a non-spellcaster reduces the difference between the floor and ceiling of effectiveness and should make balancing it much easier.

perseid wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 3:17 am

I'm going purely off memory but I think the biggest thing I'd like to see is a viable "jack of all trades" shifter build. If I remember the outline Starfish shared once it leaned towards having most forms but choosing a few to specialize in for added bonuses that would be the workhorse forms. Imo this sort of goes against the spirit of embracing shapeshifting to become an everchanging being. I think having form specialization is still fine but it'd be nice to see a generalist shifter still be at least vaguely competent.

to add - we aren't following it to the letter and are probably doing something different for forms. so they're not limited to only a few forms or specialties. a thought was that feats would dictate your niche and boost the forms.

nothing concrete yet. we are in the whiteboard and post-it note stage.

silverpheonix wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:12 pm

Dumb question but what's this starfish outline people keep referencing?

i'm an idiot who forgot to link it, my bad - i'll add it to the original post as well

xanrael wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:48 pm

I prefer the Pathfinder take on it, specifically some of the archetypes. Not a spellcaster by trade, full class levels, and can polymorph.

I think it being a non-spellcaster reduces the difference between the floor and ceiling of effectiveness and should make balancing it much easier.

While not perfect by any stretch, the Pathfinder 1st edition shifter class was an interesting one.

As Pathfinder was a 3.5 clone any interested dev would be able to understand the crunch if they read it and I encourage them to do so.

If it becomes something a lot more fun to play... Are more people going to be allowed to play it? I mean I don't even want to get my hopes up if it's going to be as tightly locked as it is now.

This is super important, or there'll be a million considerations for balance purposes.

When shifting use appearance changes rather than shapeshifting.

Shapes instead give soft skills, attributes, feats, skin changes (critical immunity, vuln etc.) and special abilities / spells. (No hard stats)

• This means the characters base stats are relevant which makes balancing significantly easier. (You don't have to worry about a full cha pumping undead shape, or int assassin etc.)

• This also means equipment is relevant and allows for further specialism/generalism with equipment choice.

• This also means they can use items, heal kits etc.

Things that could be fun:

Special abilities / spells scaling based on shifter level and a mental stat, but weighted toward shifter level. This allows a shifter to specialise if they want to be an ability user (different abilities scaling with WIS/CHA/INT) but because it's weighted toward shifter level keeps them relevant even if they don't have a big score.

Introduce studying, similarly to the ranger FE system, where the shifter can research new forms by studying something of the base race and unlock the set of forms associated with it.

Introduce feats that grant bonuses to specific form types. (Again, like FE. "Favoured Form: Giant" for example gives you some improved stats on your giant shapes)

Introduce shifting bonuses when moving from shape to shape to encourage shifters to not be entirely the one form they've specialised in forever.

E.G.

• Shifters gain bonuses (form dependant) for 1 round + 1/5 shifter levels after you've just shifted into something.

• At epic level, shifters gain those bonuses of the shape they're coming out of, in addition to the shape they're shifted to for 1 round + 1 / 5 shifter levels. So if you were a kobold which gave you +2 ab as its 'shift bonus', and shifted to a giant which gave you +4 damage as it's 'shift bonus', you'd maintain the +2 ab from the kobold as well as the giant damage.

• This could also include an epic feat that allows you to maintain features of 2 forms in a third, increase the duration of the buff and an instant shift at epic shifter.

• You could expand on the above and introduce some special interactions. Like giant > dragon gives your breath attack a huge aoe.

I have no stakes in this class, and don't find it all that interesting. So I'll only say a few things.

Remove the application prerequisite.

1. Apps don't work.
2. Redesigning and overhauling the least played class that is played by .1% of the entire server's population seems like a massive waste of time and effort if it's going to be gated so tightly.

The app is unlikely to be removed. Whether apps work or not is a different topic.
And as to whether it is a waste of time - playing this game is a waste of time; we still do it because we enjoy it.

On a more positive note, there are some interesting ideas up there, some that I hadn't really thought about and open up new possibilities for the class.
Still, don't get your hopes up yet - we are in early planning and we have a long way to go.

I am presently trying out a Shifter now.

My big concern is that when a class becomes 'the new meta' or is even thought to be brought up to parity with other classes, doors are closed for those who want as many cookies to further roleplay as possible and do not really care about the class' overall power.

To wit, my character is a Warlock/Shifter/Loremaster, the conceit being I can send images with my shifted forms easily and also be something of an infiltrator given I know the languages of whomever or whatever I am pretending to be. Is it a gimmick? Yes, but I'd much rather play gimmicks than some streamlined class designed to be highly competitive in PvP, where multiclassing is discouraged because the capstone requires 20 shifter or something.

The app is unlikely to be removed.

Why, exactly? What is it about the class that requires it?