Arelith

This is sort of a catchall thread that I'm going to add my own feedback to but I thought this just might be a generally good thing to have for tossing out opinions on the update and feedback on language/skill combinations per familiar. My own feeling is that overall I like the update but I do feel like Bluff is sort of a worthless skill boost to get from a familiar. It's not that I don't think Bluff is thematic but unless the familiar has a significant Bluff score itself then what this means is that you can get a boost on Bluff checks whenever you have something that outs you or tethers you to a zone present. It likely helps with passing npc dialogue checks in some circumstances but I don't think Bluff is helpful at all from a familiar in player interactions if you're a character who is recognized unless the idea is that you can just -relevel as needed to change your familiar into something new that doesn't expose you.

The bluff boon does seem like it'd be largely useful to NPC interactions, otherwise it's like trying to disguise while having an Aspect, but worse since everyone can see it.

With the loss of disable trap from Pixie, I'd switch familiars to something else, except I don't want to relevel to do it. And the soft boon to DT from pixie isn't worth it to me because I main a wizard and I don't want to absolutely trash my spellbook and spellslots every time I want to switch out some gear and de-trap a chest. Gear swapping is a terrible thing for wizards.

I'm quite happy the pixie was crippled, the Familiar is a great RP tool (which is all casters have now) but people only ever relied on that pixie, you got cats and owls, Familiars just need to not suck in other ways now. Maybe sympathetic casting, any spells the caster applies to themselves applies to their Familiar.

Please have one of them buff Sail!

I appreciate the free language, now my character can talk to animals. The climb skill bonus is a bit redundant on an avariel, I already never had to worry about climb checks, but its free so can't complain. I'm glad pixies can no longer pick locks, hopefully now we can see more diversity among familiars, for as long as I've played everyone just chose the pixie to make looting easy.

My one complaint is, three different familiars give bonuses to the same skill. I would change Bat from search to listen, and change the smoldragon from search to spot. This would make sense and give more options for players.

Peacewhisper wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:06 pm

My one complaint is, three different familiars give bonuses to the same skill. I would change Bat from search to listen, and change the smoldragon from search to spot. This would make sense and give more options for players.

Bat has a parrot skin

-XXX- wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:38 pm

Please have one of them buff Sail!

C'mon! Dewit!

-XXX- wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:38 pm

Please have one of them buff Sail!

1000 times this! My monkey is VERY good at climbing things and can certainly carry a line!

-XXX- wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:10 pm

Bat has a parrot skin

I'm all for giving sail skill to parrot familiars. Would be nice if we could give different skill bonuses according to what skins people choose. Like give climb to people with a monkey or squirrel familiar, sail to parrot familiar, etc. This might be too complicated though, the different skins were probably not designed with skill bonuses and free languages in mind.

Giving Sail to parrots sounds like a fun idea until you realize the consequence of it would be every other sail build picking it for an easy +10 sail. The end result would be boats full of parrot familiars. It would lose its charm very, very quickly. So no, please do not give any familiar a must-have skill.

On sail:
Denied due to meta implications.
As pointed out above it also becomes the best pick and it is already widely known that sailing requires some pretty heavy tilted choices.

On spot:
Denied due to meta implications.
We already see people using every advantage they can to find stealthers and break disguises, this would further that advantage.

On listen, pre empting this one:
Denied due to meta implications.
As above for spot except would be even better for finding stealthers due to how high listen can get already.

We went through such discussions internally and is why spot and so forth are not there as is.
The response may be "why not give some hide and ms to balance the spot and listen?" And the answer to this is that they out you, worse than bluff will. And it is yet another feat to take which would harken back to the days taking (e)sf hide or ms didn't give the other.

Sincra wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:17 pm

On sail:
Denied due to meta implications.
As pointed out above it also becomes the best pick and it is already widely known that sailing requires some pretty heavy tilted choices.

On spot:
Denied due to meta implications.
We already see people using every advantage they can to find stealthers and break disguises, this would further that advantage.

On listen, pre empting this one:
Denied due to meta implications.
As above for spot except would be even better for finding stealthers due to how high listen can get already.

We went through such discussions internally and is why spot and so forth are not there as is.
The response may be "why not give some hide and ms to balance the spot and listen?" And the answer to this is that they out you, worse than bluff will. And it is yet another feat to take which would harken back to the days taking (e)sf hide or ms didn't give the other.

What about the ability to change familiar? It's already a canon low-level spell. I don't want to spend 20 minutes doing -relevel.

silverpheonix wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:33 pm

Sincra wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:17 pm

On sail:
Denied due to meta implications.
As pointed out above it also becomes the best pick and it is already widely known that sailing requires some pretty heavy tilted choices.

On spot:
Denied due to meta implications.
We already see people using every advantage they can to find stealthers and break disguises, this would further that advantage.

On listen, pre empting this one:
Denied due to meta implications.
As above for spot except would be even better for finding stealthers due to how high listen can get already.

We went through such discussions internally and is why spot and so forth are not there as is.
The response may be "why not give some hide and ms to balance the spot and listen?" And the answer to this is that they out you, worse than bluff will. And it is yet another feat to take which would harken back to the days taking (e)sf hide or ms didn't give the other.

What about the ability to change familiar? It's already a canon low-level spell. I don't want to spend 20 minutes doing -relevel.

20 minutes is generous for a wiz that will need to re do all of its quick slots etc. A way to change the familiar without a relevel is much needed. Or many will just never use their familiar because pixie and disable trap is pretty worthless compared to others for a wiz.

Personally I think it would be very cheap and meta if all these people who have been rocking pixie familiars for years, suddenly changed familiars the very moment that pixie is no longer the most mechanically beneficial familiar option.

I'm strongly of the opinion there should be 1 familiar base and all other forms and abilities are given to it based on choices of appearance.
Until that is done I think any swap mechanics would be a general effort in futility and probably end up time gated anyway.

If you have a familiar and want to change it, relevel exists.
Pick one for rp going forward!

Sincra wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:17 pm

On sail:
Denied due to meta implications.
As pointed out above it also becomes the best pick and it is already widely known that sailing requires some pretty heavy tilted choices.

On spot:
Denied due to meta implications.
We already see people using every advantage they can to find stealthers and break disguises, this would further that advantage.

On listen, pre empting this one:
Denied due to meta implications.
As above for spot except would be even better for finding stealthers due to how high listen can get already.

We went through such discussions internally and is why spot and so forth are not there as is.
The response may be "why not give some hide and ms to balance the spot and listen?" And the answer to this is that they out you, worse than bluff will. And it is yet another feat to take which would harken back to the days taking (e)sf hide or ms didn't give the other.

What about perform ? Since there’s one that grants bluff, can it also grant perform or have another one that does it ?

Thanks for considering it!

So, we have returned to the days where much of the server access and loot requires a rogue dip.

pinches bridge of nose

I forget if we discussed perform, let me get back to you on that.

RedGiant wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:57 pm

So, we have returned to the days where much of the server access and loot requires a rogue dip.

pinches bridge of nose

This is also categorically false:

• You can cc open lock and dt
• Traps no longer need rogue to do above 36 dc

Peacewhisper wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:51 pm

Personally I think it would be very cheap and meta if all these people who have been rocking pixie familiars for years, suddenly changed familiars the very moment that pixie is no longer the most mechanically beneficial familiar option.

Is that any different than in tabletop switching from a cat familiar form to a bird familiar form because you're going to be going into terrain or a situation where you want to scout ahead by air? Part of wizards and their familiars is they can change them if necessary.

Sincra wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:52 pm

I'm strongly of the opinion there should be 1 familiar base and all other forms and abilities are given to it based on choices of appearance.
Until that is done I think any swap mechanics would be a general effort in futility and probably end up time gated anyway.

If you have a familiar and want to change it, relevel exists.
Pick one for rp going forward!

I wouldn't mind a time gate, that sounds reasonable to me.

And why would swap mechanics be futile?

silverpheonix wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:07 pm

Peacewhisper wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:51 pm

Personally I think it would be very cheap and meta if all these people who have been rocking pixie familiars for years, suddenly changed familiars the very moment that pixie is no longer the most mechanically beneficial familiar option.

Is that any different than in tabletop switching from a cat familiar form to a bird familiar form because you're going to be going into terrain or a situation where you want to scout ahead by air? Part of wizards and their familiars is they can change them if necessary.

Sincra wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:52 pm

I'm strongly of the opinion there should be 1 familiar base and all other forms and abilities are given to it based on choices of appearance.
Until that is done I think any swap mechanics would be a general effort in futility and probably end up time gated anyway.

If you have a familiar and want to change it, relevel exists.
Pick one for rp going forward!

I wouldn't mind a time gate, that sounds reasonable to me.

And why would swap mechanics be futile?

Making something only for it to be replaced because we already knew a superior implementation is the futile bit, should start with the superior implementation if you know it exists!

RedGiant wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:57 pm

So, we have returned to the days where much of the server access and loot requires a rogue dip.

pinches bridge of nose

I didn't choose the pixie familiar on my character, or take any rogue or specialist levels, and my character can unlock any chest and disarm any trap. It takes 4 skill points and 3-4 pieces of gear to accomplish. A rogue dip is not required.

silverpheonix wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:07 pm

Is that any different than in tabletop switching from a cat familiar form to a bird familiar form because you're going to be going into terrain or a situation where you want to scout ahead by air? Part of wizards and their familiars is they can change them if necessary.

This directly contradicts the actual lore.

"Acquiring a familiar and bonding with it was a day-long process[2][4] that required a significant amount of magical resources, typically costing about 100 gold pieces.[4]

So closely were a familiar and its master bonded that separation—either by death or dismissal—harmed the other. If a spellcaster lost his or her familiar, it was impossible to bond with another for at least year and a day"

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Familiar

Sincra wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:59 pm

RedGiant wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:57 pm

So, we have returned to the days where much of the server access and loot requires a rogue dip.

pinches bridge of nose

This is also categorically false:

• You can cc open lock and dt
• Traps no longer need rogue to do above 36 dc

I withdraw my salt.

Mostly.

RIP Chuckles the Monkey, Theif Extrodinaiire.

Sincra wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:09 pm

silverpheonix wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:07 pm

Peacewhisper wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:51 pm

Personally I think it would be very cheap and meta if all these people who have been rocking pixie familiars for years, suddenly changed familiars the very moment that pixie is no longer the most mechanically beneficial familiar option.

Is that any different than in tabletop switching from a cat familiar form to a bird familiar form because you're going to be going into terrain or a situation where you want to scout ahead by air? Part of wizards and their familiars is they can change them if necessary.

Sincra wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:52 pm

I'm strongly of the opinion there should be 1 familiar base and all other forms and abilities are given to it based on choices of appearance.
Until that is done I think any swap mechanics would be a general effort in futility and probably end up time gated anyway.

If you have a familiar and want to change it, relevel exists.
Pick one for rp going forward!

I wouldn't mind a time gate, that sounds reasonable to me.

And why would swap mechanics be futile?

Making something only for it to be replaced because we already knew a superior implementation is the futile bit, should start with the superior implementation if you know it exists!

Is there going to be that change? When?

Peacewhisper wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:18 pm

RedGiant wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:57 pm

So, we have returned to the days where much of the server access and loot requires a rogue dip.

pinches bridge of nose

I didn't choose the pixie familiar on my character, or take any rogue or specialist levels, and my character can unlock any chest and disarm any trap. It takes 4 skill points and 3-4 pieces of gear to accomplish. A rogue dip is not required.

silverpheonix wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:07 pm

Is that any different than in tabletop switching from a cat familiar form to a bird familiar form because you're going to be going into terrain or a situation where you want to scout ahead by air? Part of wizards and their familiars is they can change them if necessary.

This directly contradicts the actual lore.

"Acquiring a familiar and bonding with it was a day-long process[2][4] that required a significant amount of magical resources, typically costing about 100 gold pieces.[4]

So closely were a familiar and its master bonded that separation—either by death or dismissal—harmed the other. If a spellcaster lost his or her familiar, it was impossible to bond with another for at least year and a day"

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Familiar

Yep, you're right, I was thinking of 5e lore.

Very cool update, I like it a lot.