Delete or Replace the Vampire Race

[Xersaoth]

As Arelith moves away from the endless grind for mechanical improvements based on random factors (the basin rework, changes to the appraise and search skills as well as to the loot matrix), I suggest deleting the vampire race from the list of playable races or replacing it with a generic undead race that offers multiple paths, such as animated corpse, soulless immortal, death knight, (demi-)lich, lower vampire etc. that is significantly downgraded mechanically and not locked behind an application.

The vampire race is currently locked behind a random and misleading factor of earning a major award, forcing players to create multiple (sometimes over a dozen) characters with the goal of rolling them. At the same time, this is an unrealistic goal since, under current policies, only a select few or "chosen ones" will ever be able to play this race, further implying and solidifying the notion of favoritism.

I find it peculiar that a single playable race has such mechanical benefits. I will list some of them them here as a reminder:

1) Immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks: This feat alone was moved to level 15 of the Pale Master class for balancing reasons!

2) Immunity to mind-affecting effects: Higher undead and vampires in particular have sophisticated minds that should be affected.

3) Immunity to all negative energy: As far as I understand, this effectively grants them immunity to most draining effects and necromancy spells.

4) Regeneration: I am unsure how to comment on this, considering there are ways to boost it to about 20+. Combined with decent AC and saves, it results in an unkillable character.

5) Permanent ultravision: This is a relatively minor boost.

Additionally, the undead race can use the Grimoire of Maleficence, effectively allowing them to summon balors even at level one.

All in all, it is quite ridiculous to even address here. I remember encountering a vampire assassin on PGGC as a new player, and my first thought was: Is this even allowed? It is not for me to decide since even my application for an assassin token was not good enough and got rejected multiple times. However, I think that such characters probably should not be permitted. I can imagine that being killed by one in-game would feel akin to encountering a cheater, unless they live in disguise, as I would, and it was unclear why they were so powerful. PC immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks is likely not displayed in the logs.

Regarding their inherent weaknesses, there are extremely few clerics and spellcasters on the server who use spells that the revealed vampires are currently vulnerable to in order to justify even half of their mechanical benefits in my view. In fact, it is too hard for me to imagine how to do it.

[Peacewhisper]

I'd love to see some new Major reward options. I would have loved to make a vampire but the fact I'd have to wait in a queue of players so long for a chance at it is discouraging to me. I'd also feel bad playing it for a long time since I'd effectively be preventing other players from having the opportunity. The whole limit/queue system for certain races stinks and I'd like to see it go. If something is so powerful we can only ever have 10 or 13 of them it probably shouldn't even be an option.

Edit: On the topic of an undead class with different paths, I think the totem druid treatment of giving them stat penalties to make up for the crit immunity and other undead bonuses would be smart. Some examples:

Zombie: -4 dex, -4 int, -4 cha, reduced movement speed

Skeleton: -4 str, -4 con, -4 wis, vulnerable to bludgeoning, resist piercing

Wraith: -4 str, -4 con, -4 int, concealment

[silverpheonix]

How do you intend to RP an undead type that, by nature, is mindless?

[Security_Blanket]

As long as these sorts of things exist there will always be people that take it for mechanical purposes, or for both that and because they want a reaction that will lead to PvP.

[Peacewhisper]

How do you intend to RP an undead type that, by nature, is mindless?

There are intelligent undead of nearly all kinds in the lore. They are rare exceptions but still exist. And we are discussing something that would probably be locked behind a major reward. So I'm sure there would be some kind of in-game explanation as to why player character undeads can talk and have bank accounts while the ones at the battlefield or the Sibayad catacombs can't.

Most undead are simply mindless because they were created to be minions. Usually when one transforms themselves into an undead though they retain their intellect, as is the case with liches, demi-liches, and baelnorns.

Here's an example of a zombie variant that retains its sentience:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Juju_zombie

And here is a sentient skeleton:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baneguard

So yeah, the argument that all undead are mindless just does not hold water, since we already have undead on the server who aren't mindless and the lore is full of them.

[Joe46]

I agree, Vampires are quite op. Good, they should be. They are a special race, I am all up for them being as mechanically good as they are, but I'll shine some sunlight (hehehe) at some of their actual weaknesses

1. Say goodbye to gifts. That's right, vampires don't get access to major gifts. That sweet +2 str +2 con? Poof, gone to the ashes like a vamp seeing Lathander

2. No heal magic will work on you. You think that's nothing until you realize you can't chug heal potions. Vampires are hard to take down, but they cannot recover from wounds as easily.

[Peacewhisper]

I agree, Vampires are quite op. Good, they should be. They are a special race, I am all up for them being as mechanically good as they are, but I'll shine some sunlight (hehehe) at some of their actual weaknesses

1. Say goodbye to gifts. That's right, vampires don't get access to major gifts. That sweet +2 str +2 con? Poof, gone to the ashes like a vamp seeing Lathander

2. No heal magic will work on you. You think that's nothing until you realize you can't chug heal potions. Vampires are hard to take down, but they cannot recover from wounds as easily.

Just to add my 2 gold pieces to this. My character fought a vampire and their 3 friends and the best they could do is run away. Maybe if I built a vampire it would be OP but I think that its overrated. I know of other instances where vampires were beaten ICly. Not even to their weaknesses but just straight 1v1 combat against very common mundane melee builds. So really I don't think vampire is THAT meta breaking and it probably wouldn't hurt the server that much if there were 22 of them instead of 13.

[Joe46]

I agree, Vampires are quite op. Good, they should be. They are a special race, I am all up for them being as mechanically good as they are, but I'll shine some sunlight (hehehe) at some of their actual weaknesses

1. Say goodbye to gifts. That's right, vampires don't get access to major gifts. That sweet +2 str +2 con? Poof, gone to the ashes like a vamp seeing Lathander

2. No heal magic will work on you. You think that's nothing until you realize you can't chug heal potions. Vampires are hard to take down, but they cannot recover from wounds as easily.

Just to add my 2 gold pieces to this. My character fought a vampire and their 3 friends and the best they could do is run away. Maybe if I built a vampire it would be OP but I think that its overrated. I know of other instances where vampires were beaten ICly. Not even to their weaknesses but just straight 1v1 combat against very common mundane melee builds. So really I don't think vampire is THAT meta breaking and it probably wouldn't hurt the server that much if there were 22 of them instead of 13.

Yes, that is quite correct. Vampire isn't OP in a mechanical sense, it has a good advantage against two very prominent classes. WM and Rogue. An elementalist won't care for your immunities, a cleric or a paladin will in fact be at an advantage. You're essentially a target that gets dealt more damage and cannot heal from their strokes as efficiently

Where their power lies is in their RP abilities

[Anomandaris]

Vampires are very easy to kill, just find any of the number of foig builds that have the right tools to put down those bloodsuckers.

They also can’t go in the sun… which is seriously inconvenient.

[Xersaoth]

So, let me sum up their mentioned drawbacks: 1) they don't get any gifts; 2) they counter only the most powerful damage dealers in-game; 3) they cannot go in the sun.

The legends says they are easy to kill if you know proper foig builds... and must run away when lynch mobbed.

By the way, forgot to mention they also get soft bonuses to strength, dexterity and constitution thay allow to reach the caps in three stats much easier. And the regeneration can actually be boosted to potentially 25+ every six seconds with a standard barbarian build, which also gives a pretty high damage reduction... among some other nice things.

[Anomandaris]

So, let me sum up their mentioned drawbacks: 1) they don't have gifts; 2) they counter only the most powerful damage dealers in-game; 3) they cannot go in the sun.

The legends says they are easy to kill if you know proper foig builds... and must run away when lynch mobbed.

By the way, forgot to mention they also get soft bonuses to strength, dexterity and constitution. And the regeneration can be boosted to potentially 25+ every six seconds with a standard barbarian build, which also gives a pretty high damage reduction and among some other things.

Disclaimer I don't have a vampire or ever desire to play one. This is just my experience having fought against several and seeing how their RP plays out in the social/political scene, given their undead, polarizing nature.

Since you seem to doubt my vague mention of legendary builds that can make vampires' lives difficult, I'll be a little more specific, though these things generally should be FOIG. My rogue very strongly disagrees that a vampire counters them. He has given at least a few a very uncomfortable "bath." At the time, said baths also negated the regen, and provided stacking DOT that was very oppressive (though it may have been tweaked since I last gave non-consensual baths to a vampire). Oath of inquisition allows you to crit through immunity, not to mention the insane value of divine smite. A necromancer can also have quite a bit of effect against a vampire, their kit is uniquely suited to mastery over undead (do some experimenting with spells to find out). It depends on the vampire's build, but there are always weaknesses to exploit.

So sure, a vampire can be very strong against a whole range of builds, even perhaps a fairly large swath of them. More so if the player/character doesn't know the lore of the vampire and the mechanical weaknesses that can be exploited. The fact is, the vampire is extremely vulnerable to another subset of builds, and even if said builds are slightly less prolific, this means there's extensive counter play that a vampire must really be worried about running into.

Vampires also often end up drawing a lot of IC attention from would be "hunters" making them very much at greater risk. They need to be powerful to deal with the heat that inevitably comes their way.

[Kushion]

how could rogue having anti undead equipment, necromancers having anti undead spells, or Paladin inquisition oath possibly be considered “foig!!!”?

it’s literally public information posted on the wiki,

[Xersaoth]

how could rogue having anti undead equipment, necromancers having anti undead spells, or Paladin inquisition oath possibly be considered “foig!!!”?

it’s literally public information posted on the wiki,

That obviously came from a person who has some sort of stake in it, such as a friend who plays a vampire. They don't want their friends getting targeted by these particular and supposedly less known builds that frankly constitute about 1% of all players maybe less and are meant to justify the ability of vampires to defeat 99% of all others.

[silverpheonix]

How do you intend to RP an undead type that, by nature, is mindless?

There are intelligent undead of nearly all kinds in the lore. They are rare exceptions but still exist. And we are discussing something that would probably be locked behind a major reward. So I'm sure there would be some kind of in-game explanation as to why player character undeads can talk and have bank accounts while the ones at the battlefield or the Sibayad catacombs can't.

Most undead are simply mindless because they were created to be minions. Usually when one transforms themselves into an undead though they retain their intellect, as is the case with liches, demi-liches, and baelnorns.

Here's an example of a zombie variant that retains its sentience:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Juju_zombie

And here is a sentient skeleton:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baneguard

So yeah, the argument that all undead are mindless just does not hold water, since we already have undead on the server who aren't mindless and the lore is full of them.

Well the more you know! I think I'll lurk more instead of comment.

[TroubledWaters]

The vampire stat bonuses are all soft and tied to the +12 cap, making it the one of weakest races on the server, stat-wise, given how easy it is to hit +12 now given current buffs and gearing. You don't get any gifts to help you and are limited to base race stats.

The bonus stats may have been useful when the overall power level of the server was lower, but I don't think the other benefits, while good to have, make up for the weakness to sparkling water and low stat levels vampires have in comparison to other characters as they aren't able to use anything outside base race stats and lose gifts.

[Kalopsia]

The original post needs some clarification: While yes, a character with the undead race could theoretically activate the Grimoire of Maleficence, vampires (mechanically) retain their original race, rendering them unable to use undead-only items. Also, the claimed regeneration of +20 only contains +6 vampire regeneration (situational, see below). The remaining +14 would be build or party-specific and could affect any character, regardless of race.

Beyond passive undead immunities, which have already been covered above, vampires gain soft ability bonuses and regeneration, both of which are tied to their blood meter, a score that drops faster the higher it gets - and only the highest percentages grant the full bonuses. This aspect isn't represented on PGCC, just like the food/water meters (characters are always at 100% there), yet it is highly relevant to a vampire's gear strategy.

While I'm here, I'd also like to elaborate on some of the race's limitations in more detail:

• Vampires can be affected by turn undead - both when used by PCs and NPCs. This can flat-foot or render them unable to fight back.
• Their sunlight vulnerability is more severe than that of other races like drow: It applies increasing damage ticks that will kill them within a few rounds.
• There are death spells against all three saves: Implosion (fortitude), Sunburst (reflex) and Undeath to Death (will). Death immunity applies against none of them.
• They cannot heal via normal means: Cure spells/items, (Mass) Heal and Greater Restoration will either fail or even damage them. Thus, the only means to heal up are their bite ability or negative energy spells (with an obvious VFX or feedback text, hence not always advisable to use), or healing kits, which require full skill investment (and ideally expensive +10 kits).
• Arelith is balanced around the availability of major gifts (or equivalent subrace bonuses) on character creation. Losing access to these gifts essentially limits vampires to a handful of builds. Any build with more than two primary abilities requires significant trade-offs, and all others still miss out on 4 ability points compared to a regular character (which translates to lower HP, AB and/or AC, worse DCs, struggles with feat requirements etc). I encourage you to try and come up with a vampire build that not only feels like it would do the award requirement justice, but also has a theme that would feel interesting to roleplay.

Like Rakshasa, the joy of playing a vampire is often found in subterfuge and deception. This means a character that doesn't start in the Underdark might spend a significant amount of their "life"-time pretending to be someone they are not (and hoping random NPC abilities or misclicked spells will not spoil the big plot twist yet to come), rather than using their full skillset. No friendly spars, no bites to heal up in PvE - and, quite possibly, many missed RP opportunities of player events that just so happen to start at dawn, outside.

[Anomandaris]

how could rogue having anti undead equipment, necromancers having anti undead spells, or Paladin inquisition oath possibly be considered “foig!!!”?

it’s literally public information posted on the wiki,

That obviously came from a person who has some sort of stake in it, such as a friend who plays a vampire. They don't want their friends getting targeted by these particular and supposedly less known builds that frankly constitute about 1% of all players maybe less and are meant to justify the ability of vampires to defeat 99% of all others.

lol what? What a strange conspiracy, especially given as you say, the wiki exists, right? I have no friends on an active vampire thank you. Very kind of you to assume the worst however. Maybe I was just playing on the safe side? Why assume the worst when there are any number of plausible reasons? Sorry I didn’t cross check the wiki, I’ll take ten lashings for my sins.

Let’s stay in topic and not throw personal judgements or character attacks eh?

[Kythana]

It's rather wild to see people trying to downplay vampires.

Getting a boat load of free stats, 2 str, 2 dex, 2 con, 6 regen, +x strength from NEB, crit immunity, mind-immunity, and sneak attack immunity is strong.

Sure, the stats are soft bonuses, so it doesn't make you more powerful in the traditional sense, but it gives you a lot more leeway in your gear. More saves, more discipline. Less vulnerable to dispels, ect.

There are builds that get tools to deal with them, sure, but crit immunity and mind immunity just disables certain builds from being able to function at all. Even something like turn undead has a cooldown before it can affect the vampire again.

Losing access to these gifts essentially limits vampires to a handful of builds

I think this is vastly overstating how important the extra attributes are.

The stat malus is ultimately translating to, at worst -1 AB, -1 AC, -30 HP, and/or -30 skills, -1 spell save DC.

It might make a build worse, but it's not preventing them from taking it.

You can do WM vampires, barbarian vampires, rogue vampire, defiler vampires, warlock vampires, spellsword vampires, ect. Maybe the one thing you can't do outside of the traditional alignment lock, is something like SOTH bard. They might be down an AB or some HP, but the crit immunity more often than not makes up for it.

---

Ultimately, I do think that vampires should be removed. And not replaced with anything.

Vampires are extremely boring, and almost every concept I've seen is some variation of: Live on the surface for a month until you're outed, usually resorting to cheap tactics, and avoiding metagaming. Or just live in the UD and do whatever.

Arelith does not really seem suited for traditional vampire RP where there is an actual fear and mysterious quality to them. There is no Strahd or Count Dracula looming in the distance, hidden in their horrific castle waiting to abduct and prey on the townspeople. You're either so subtle that it's almost irrelevant, or prime enemy #1.

The loremaster quality of so many PCs makes the vampire's weaknesses and allure so trite to play out. You can just ask someone off the street, and they can freely list everything about them, how thralldom works, what you need to kill them, ect.

And lastly, something I've witnessed recently. The Arelithism that you need a coffin to kill a vampire. A common sentiment I've seen expressed ICly by many characters, despite existing lore going against it. Despite vampires having a glaring, obvious weakness to the sun, they can freely just die in it, and respawn like nothing was wrong, and I assume this was the solution to make it less ridiculous.

At the very least, Vampires should have a MOD for sunlight related death. That is not something these PCs should be coming from easily.

[TroubledWaters]

Getting a boat load of free stats, 2 str, 2 dex, 2 con, 6 regen, +x strength from NEB, crit immunity, mind-immunity, and sneak attack immunity is strong.

You do not get any free str, dex, or con, as it's pretty trivial to cap these at +12 on most builds that use these stats without the vampire gifts.

Without access to gifts or better stats, you will have worse stats than a comparable non-vampire character.

[Kythana]

Getting a boat load of free stats, 2 str, 2 dex, 2 con, 6 regen, +x strength from NEB, crit immunity, mind-immunity, and sneak attack immunity is strong.

You do not get any free str, dex, or con, as it's pretty trivial to cap these at +12 on most builds that use these stats without the vampire gifts.

Without access to gifts or better stats, you will have worse stats than a comparable non-vampire character.

Yes, a vampire has lower total stats. I already stated this.

Free soft stats are still a bonus, however. A vampire can gear 8 con, and with an ioun stone + racial are immune from losing hp from dispels.

A normal character that is gearing +7 to con, and is relying on +5 from zoo potion is losing 90 HP on a bears dispel.

Feel free to actually post a hypothetical gearing, not accounting for the new dweomer however.

At the very minimum, it's going to be some extra unisaves or discipline, which imo, can be more important than a higher top end for certain builds.

[Dreams]

Vampires aren't that much of a threat in the setting compared to how powerful they are on Arelith. Other award race types are far moreso but are not well represented on Arelith. You end up with a situation where vampires are a ridiculously powerful choice whilst other monster types are little wimpy baby pushovers.

[TroubledWaters]

A normal character that is gearing +7 to con, and is relying on +5 from zoo potion is losing 90 HP on a bears dispel.

Feel free to actually post a hypothetical gearing, not accounting for the new dweomer however.

At the very minimum, it's going to be some extra unisaves or discipline, which imo, can be more important than a higher top end for certain builds.

25% chance to lose 90 hp is really not a big deal, action economy favors you as it's quicker for you to just heal that and drink potions to get back to whole compared to what it takes to dispel you.

Additional unisaves would be nice, sure, but again between your skleen and how powerful gear is, it's not very hard to get capped and also build some saves on your gear.

[Vyrandil Rivorndir]

how could rogue having anti undead equipment, necromancers having anti undead spells, or Paladin inquisition oath possibly be considered “foig!!!”?

it’s literally public information posted on the wiki,

[...] They don't want their friends getting targeted by these particular and supposedly less known builds that frankly constitute about 1% of all players maybe less and are meant to justify the ability of vampires to defeat 99% of all others.

I'm sorry. It's hard to just ignore this remark.
Was Rogue not sitting at mid 20s percent, with like 5 - 10% of it being Holy Flask range of levels?
And isn't Necromancer route not one of the most popular ones out there as-is. Not to mention the anti-undead spells not being Necromancy SF, GSF, ESF gated to begin with and widely available to at -least- 6 different classes out there?

It seems like at least some arguments are kind of just being made up on the spot to justify outrage without any actual root in reality of it all.

I get there are frustrations about vampires (whether reasonable or otherwise) but it's a fluff race at best except a few niche scenarios, that just doesn't let the usual one-trick pony methods deal with it. Calling for the deletion or overhaul because the single tracked solution someone has to everything doesn't work with 100% efficiency, like going for the usual "funny click red and walk away from keyboard" exaggeration is a bit too extreme probably.

And yes, some match-ups just won't work without extreme/creative effort. It's how it goes. Rock, paper, scissor. Adapt or look for an alternative.

[silverpheonix]

Getting a boat load of free stats, 2 str, 2 dex, 2 con, 6 regen, +x strength from NEB, crit immunity, mind-immunity, and sneak attack immunity is strong.

You do not get any free str, dex, or con, as it's pretty trivial to cap these at +12 on most builds that use these stats without the vampire gifts.

Without access to gifts or better stats, you will have worse stats than a comparable non-vampire character.

Yes, a vampire has lower total stats. I already stated this.

Free soft stats are still a bonus, however. A vampire can gear 8 con, and with an ioun stone + racial are immune from losing hp from dispels.

Not really. Dispel, sure, but some blood magic spells will ruin a vamp PC's hunger.

[Seren]

Lol just drop a mass heal for 200 damage and a vampire will explode.

Scroll it or the heal spell.
Play favored soul.
Play druid.
Play cleric.
Play inq pally.
Play warlock and use positive energy or just straight up magic damage.
Play dirgesinger and have multiple stuns / roots to lock it down.
Rogue has holy grenades that tick for a silly amount vs undead.

Heal is a touch attack. If they're not a dexer you p much instawin that roll.

Mass heal has no save no touch attack if u use it on urself.

This is all public information you can research about basic class mechanics.

This race is good but it's not broken. It's just easier to gear and crit immune.