Are Assassins Required to PvP Contracts?

[perseid]

This is something I had trouble digging up a clear answer on from the wiki and its past iterations. The former pvp rules that were reversed w/ regard to Assassin seem like they'd imply that assassins are expected to be present in pvp. But neither on the wiki nor the official discord have I actually found this acknowledged. So I was curious if it was true or just a community rumor since mechanically assassins can just be brought a corpse to use their job tool on for credit?

[Shadowy Reality]

I do not believe you need to personally PvP. You do need to roleplay before PvP if you do though.

As an assassin, I think you could hire muscle-heads to do the killing and simply use the dagger on the corpse.
You could also ask if your mark wants to go out on a hunt, and if the place just so happens to be deadly, use the dagger on the corpse.

While these two scenarios above are within the rules, I would go beyond that, your mark should know something is off, that some might (?) be happening. Assassins aren't just here for a quick kill. If your mark dies directly or indirectly because of you and has no idea an assassin was targetting him then I would say you did something wrong along the way.

After all what is the point of putting a contract on someone, the assassin waits for the mark to die to PvE, use the dagger, and that's it, contract fullfilled? Technically the mark did die, but I do believe part of the toll assassins takes on the mark is also psycological, knowing someone wishes their death, and it could come from anywhere, anytime.

But take all of this with a grain of salt, even though I have played an assassin before, I am no DM.

[Dreams]

Assassins aren't required to do the actual PvP, they can hire/manipulate/setup the death in other ways and then dagger the body. There's even an NPC in module that describes some alternative ways to get someone killed such as the example just made, someone dying in PvE > using the dagger to claim the body. Different characters are going to have different methods/motivations toward the way they do the job. That's where this can be a really interesting class with big differences character to character IMO, some will be direct and engage themselves, others will be on the sidelines stalking and setting up the ideal kill, others will be orchestrating others to do the dirty work and reaping the reward. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

[D4wN]

I have been told by several assassin PCs in the past that Assassins are required to do the actual attacking and RP around it. They can't send in others to do their job for them without at least attending. Though I don't think they have to have the actual 'kill' hit. Which frankly, if you're not even going to attend your own target's death to fulfil the contract maybe you shouldn't be an assassin. To me an assassin is someone who actually does the murdering. Not just use a dagger on a dead body to trigger the 'assassinate' mechanic. That feels very cheap in my opinion. Regardless, some clarity from DMs on this ruling would be appreciated since there's conflicting comms about this.

[msterswrdsmn]

As far as I'm aware, you don't even have to PVP someone to collect a bounty, technically. You can hang really really close to them, invite them on an adventure, then do a very poor job of protecting them and then use your class item on their corpse once they die.

The only conditions are that you RP it out before you attack (if you choose to do so), and that once the target is dead, you use the appropriate item on them.

Mechnically speaking, I don't think theres any reason the example you gave wouldn't work. Technically just wandering out in the wilderness and randomly stumbling on their corpse would work (provided they're still logged in, I think). A dev would have to clarify that part though.

[chris a gogo]

Surely at that point you haven't been assassinated.
The "assassin" hasn't killed you they are not confirming "their" kill in any shape or form.
If you lead a bunch of other players and have them do most of the work in the assassination that seems fine, if you chassing your target through a mob spawn and they kill him sure I can go with that.
But making no hostile actions towards the target and then stabbing a corpse after it died to beholders or something is not an assassination.

[Juuj]

Surely at that point you haven't been assassinated.
The "assassin" hasn't killed you they are not confirming "their" kill in any shape or form.
If you lead a bunch of other players and have them do most of the work in the assassination that seems fine, if you chassing your target through a mob spawn and they kill him sure I can go with that.
But making no hostile actions towards the target and then stabbing a corpse after it died to beholders or something is not an assassination.

I disagree, if you plan the trip to beholders, knowing that it’ll be too risky for the mark and the mark dies while doing so, it sounds as an assassination in my book.
Subtlety too is the mark of a competent assassin, as long as the target dies by your doing, regardless if you attack or not, it should count (as it currently does)

[chris a gogo]

I think your conflating the position of "assassin" with "protagonist/villain".

"protagonist/villain" is the guy that makes plans to get joe the banker murdered but doesn't get his hands dirty.
"assassin" is the guy that murders joe by carrying out mister "protagonists/villain" dastardly plan.

Should mister "assassin" get joe to go alone with them to a very dangerous place and then be standing back doesn't sound like subtle or smart planning, as clearly Joe is either strong enough to solo this place normally or a total moron.

Also isn't the point collaborative story telling, waiting for mob spawns to kill someone then without them ever knowing is crass at best.

Surely the whole point of assassin being gated is that your expected to give your targets a "fun" death be that a brief monologue telling them "villain" ordered your death!
To "I'm so sorry my friend but business is business".
Because if assassins are just waiting for marks to die then just stabbing corpses they aren't really adding anything to the game.

[Darkstorn42]

Technically speaking, there is no rule that says the assassin that claims the bounty need be present or engaged in the actual death. That being said, there is definitely a conversation to be had over whether that's constructive RP or 'must win' mentality.

I see nothing wrong with an assassin having a group that gets the body and brings it to them. All about plausible deniability. The more involved with the plot, the more likely to be found out.

There are also those that prefer to stalk and terrorize their pray to make them pay it off instead. No PVP at all. Or even offering them a chance to pay off the would be killer.

The truth is, the possibilities, even within the rules, are rather broad and it should be the assassin's goal to do their best for everyone's enjoyment.

[Eyeliner]

I think you should try to make death fun for the victim for sure, but there's no guarantee their idea of fun is the same as yours and lots of players will be angry they were assassinated no matter what you do. That should be a factor but it's not the only factor.

Anyway I think pretending to be someone's dungeon buddy until the boss then abandoning them, or even better, using that opportunity to turn on them is fair, especially if you RPed along the way to get them to put some trust in you. It's all in how it's handled and I wouldn't rule anything like that out.. It comes down to individual players' RP skills.

[chris a gogo]

Re: Are Assassins Required to PvP Contracts?
Unread post by Darkstorn42 » 15 Oct 2024 19:59

Technically speaking, there is no rule that says the assassin that claims the bounty need be present or engaged in the actual death. That being said, there is definitely a conversation to be had over whether that's constructive RP or 'must win' mentality.

I see nothing wrong with an assassin having a group that gets the body and brings it to them. All about plausible deniability. The more involved with the plot, the more likely to be found out.

This is the exact difference between being the pro/antagonist and being the assassin.
Assassin is the killer.
Pro/an/tagonist are the plotters hiring the killer to do the dirty work of murder to keep there hands clean.

[DM Witch]

Hi guys. We'll have a response to this announced soon enough!

[D4wN]

I don't mind if you use tricks as an assassin to take them to a difficult dungeon and let critters kill them. That is still /you/ as the assassin driving the kill and coming up with a plan/strategy to make it easier for yourself, but being very much involved in the deed.

To send a group of mercs to body someone and return it to you so you can hit 'assassinate' on it, is you not being involved in the kill. No plan, no driving the kill. No thought. Simply put, it's lazy RP if you can even call it RP at all. It's just you having a mechanic that you're using to 'win' without taking any risk.

An Assassin is defined as someone who /murders/ another. Not someone who sends others to do the killing for them while sitting at home waiting for the cat to bring back the mouse.

[Eira]

I feel as if, since the assassin application specifically has assassins include how they make the hit interactive and interesting/fun for their target, handing the onus of that interaction off to another player or group of players, steps around why we have the application in the first place.

You can only ensure the quality of rp in the rp you actually do.

[msterswrdsmn]

The reason I threw out the idea of using critters or mobs to kill someone rather than directly confronting them was in the spirit of "oops, accidents happen!" Which is honestly something I can imagine a lot of people would try in this sort of setting. Zevran from Dragon Age will tell you about his first assassination wasn't from him actually killing someone....but because they fell out of a carriage and broke their neck. Arranging for "accidents" to happen is very much a valid way to get things done.

Having played Arelith for a long time, I can affirm getting accidentally smacked by a party member in the middle of a chaotic melee is something that happens from time to time. "Oops, my hand slipped" and hitting the other player with knockdown in the middle of a sneak-attack spamming mob has absolutely happened by pure accident. Whose to say if it's done intentionally to complete a contract?

I don't feel like stabbing a corpse you randomly came across is a -good- way to complete a contract, but mechanically I don' think there is anything stopping this right now. And since the OP was asking what is mechanically possible...yeah. Hiring people to help is something I can see being valid and i'm pretty sure has been done in the past as well. I wouldn't risk -not- being their in the event the person respawns and the corpse turns to ash though.