Arelith

This conversation started in discord and would be better served if it moved to the forums.

The M.O.D on ink removal requests, in light of the recent updates.

Do you as a player think this is a good deterrent to keep players from removing their inked or outcast tags?

Personally, I look at it as a narrative choice for a player to make within their characters story arc to decide a path of redemption. Feeling this way about it, by allowing them to do so, at such a cost that ends the story they have been working on prematurely I feel like it's counter productive.

I have no problem with a m.o.d being used for excessive pvp, the Skal cap, and other ic actions that revolve around death and murder. But using it to close off a characters story arc feels like it's counter productive.

All that being said, I think a viable alternative could potentially be a removal of all gear, and gold from a character. Maybe a brand or a mark that other pirate characters can see to mark the individual as a former pirate. And having them ic marooned on a sandbar and left for "dead" further, we could do an "exile" of Sencliff, even though it isn't a settlement in the sense, it would make sense ic that a former pirate would keep away from the island.

While I play as a pirate character, I have no interest in ink removal as Trevor is right where he needs to be. But I feel like closing off a redemption arc to other pirates makes Sencliff more of a dead end for a lot of players stories, as once you go ink...

As many players who have had characters on Sencliff can attest the population of Sencliff has always been an issue, would relaxing the inked removal restrictions entice you as a player to invest more into a pirate character, knowing that in the future if you choose to take them off the island without fear of permanent death be enough for you to invest into a character.

But the main question is, do you think the m.o.d is justified? Or to much? And what are your thoughts on viable alternatives?

Thank you for coming to my ted talk, now discuss.

In the same thread, the outcast tag. As I have not played an outcast character, or a character that lives in the UD. I don't feel qualified to speak on this matter. But feel free to put in feed back on that topic as well.

if you're considering removing all gear/gold a valid option. Can Pirate ink be "removed" with simply using the -remake, command?

I believe this still counts towards a m.o.d a few people pointed that out in the discord, I don't think that would be a bad alternative, as you can say you were marooned for a while left starving so your regaining your strength.

I know pirates who do a remake lose there ink, but any I've known have gone right back to advance through the ranks, I'm not sure on the ruling of a former pirate using the -remake command to remove ink and join another settlement

I think that leaving the only path to "redemption" for a roleplay accurate lvl 30 cavalier+fighter instantly having to relearn all of his skills isekai style just to be able to play townsie roles is hamdisted and narratively disappointing.

This is Dungeons and Dragons, this is Faerun. A world filled with narrative poise and any number of characters of conspicuous backgrounds vying for power and attention.

Handcuffing characters to a mechanical -remake system as the only possible way to create intriguing and satisfying roleplay is not palpable.

We should be striving for better than that.

I roleplay for better than that.

It does make more sense narratively that your character wouldn't automatically be at starter level and have to roleplay out this drastic of a change based on a choice made for their narrative, and as was mentioned in the discord, I believe even this route would still earn a character a m.o.d

Just for the sake of documenting what I have already mentioned in the discord. Perhaps it was already mentioned here. This was my suggestion which I believe narratively fits the intent of the MoD:

"Why not just make an indicator in character like a tag that the person is a former pirate lol
And maybe make it only visible to pirates unless its a former dread pirate."

With this system in place, this would allow existing pirates to hunt down this former pirate and in the event that the character made it to the dread pirate status, government officials would have the ability to decide immediately whether or not they want a former pirate among their ranks. Narratively I can't see why folks would be opposed to the concept of a pirate turning over a new leaf due to in game developments. For example, my pirate character took up the ink to find his wife and kids after they were abducted and sold into slavery.

There's no reason that once he found new meaning in his life, he wouldn't turn over a new leaf and be able to act as a cautionary tale for others who are considering the ink or some such and I don't think that a M.o.D. would be reasonable, should he decide to return to the life of a normal person. I do, however, think that should other pirates know he is a turncoat, they should be perfectly justified in attacking him on sight and even killing him.

These are just my thoughts. I would love to hear more discourse on why or why not this should change.

Thanks!

I'm not necessarily against MoDs being the price of decisions that are meant to be genuinely rare. That being said, I feel like there's sort of an important context here which is that in general it's rare for tags to shift over time in terms of their mechanics. Yes it's happened, Outcast used to be functionally very different for example, but I think this is important to recognize as uncommon because when people decided on their characters arcs they did so in part with the understanding that they were signing up for what was on the tin.

I think that's why to me it seems strange that all revocations of something like pirate ink in this scenario should come with a MoD. Maybe it's just not supported differently by the system but that seems like a problem too. Because it's not hard to me to understand people being upset not only having their rp they invested a lot of time in entirely disrupted but also then to be told "Oh just take a MoD if this impacts you that much." It seems like in cases where rulings that have significant rp consequences for tagged characters occur there should be some sort of leniency built into the system for adjusting their status. And maybe that won't make perfect sense from a narrative perspective but I don't think that's necessarily a good criticism in situations where the narrative shifts arbitrarily to explain why they suddenly can't do certain things anymore.

This same narrative occurs all the time with class changes. One day a character has the power to do one thing and now they do not. A few weeks ago the Pixie, Imp, Squirrel, and Monkey collation of thieves guilds stopped working for free and no longer open locks. The server adapted and I RPed around it.

I personally would say turn the former pirates into outcasts.

Ruzuke wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:28 am

This same narrative occurs all the time with class changes. One day a character has the power to do one thing and now they do not. A few weeks ago the Pixie, Imp, Squirrel, and Monkey collation of thieves guilds stopped working for free and no longer open locks. The server adapted and I RPed around it.

I personally would say turn the former pirates into outcasts.

The server adapted by making releveling less punishing (as in, possible at all) and while we're sort of in the wild rest of -relevel right now most talks about revising it that I've seen have shied away from wholly removing it. Sure, overall class power might fluctuate but we're in a very different environment than the days of "This one change means your character is going to be mechanically irrelevant forevermore".

perseid wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:38 am

Ruzuke wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:28 am

This same narrative occurs all the time with class changes. One day a character has the power to do one thing and now they do not. A few weeks ago the Pixie, Imp, Squirrel, and Monkey collation of thieves guilds stopped working for free and no longer open locks. The server adapted and I RPed around it.

I personally would say turn the former pirates into outcasts.

The server adapted by making releveling less punishing (as in, possible at all) and while we're sort of in the wild rest of -relevel right now most talks about revising it that I've seen have shied away from wholly removing it. Sure, overall class power might fluctuate but we're in a very different environment than the days of "This one change means your character is going to be mechanically irrelevant forevermore".

My class the harbinger lost 2 skillpoints per level and features I relied on with my stat build were altered. Relevel did not fix the issue. Wizards lost mechanical (non familiar) related power which caused alterations to the play style (relevel won't fix that), Blackguards summon different creatures now (again relevel won't fix it).

Bard was altered so much with forced relevels my character (see the assassin bug thread) that it had 3-4 before the command -relevel was added. So much so he went from bard and DD music scaling, to it not scaling, back to it scales again. He lost his magic and one day it started working again. Server lore change affected that character as the Kobold storyline that was retconned affects him as he is a member of that tribe. Monsters being moved to UD only affected the character because he was a character who lived in Cordor. My RP adapted.

Funny enough it is the one character who I would love to be a pirate who cannot be one. He was even allowed to sail with the pirates back when the UD wasn't allowed to freely walk in the cliff.

While I do think that a pirate's story arch could end in redemption and be truly a thing to behold, said redemption should be the end of the arch lol. I didn't know that they changed it so it could be removed but with a mod, but they should go back immediately. Not for me, I will get over it no matter what they do, but for the would-be former pirate who is about to ruin what may have once been a great character.

I really don't get why removal of pirate ink is even a thing. Everyone should consider very carefully what it means to sign up with pirates and the consequences thereof. Removing your ink like a shirt should not happen - then there is also no discussion about MoD. You can't really expect a pirate to become a citizen of Cordor or Guldorand after gaining his wealth and Dreadpirate reputation by killing thousands of Navy sailors and sinking their ships. How would these settlements even accept these persons?

It would be acceptable if they try to settle down under a disguise name and try to survive that way without loosing their pirate status and hoping that nobody blows their cover - in case they really want to move on from Sencliff.

Outcast in Andunor is another possibility, but they should be still known to be former pirates - but I don't know if that is mechanically possible.

Morto wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:56 pm

if you're considering removing all gear/gold a valid option. Can Pirate ink be "removed" with simply using the -remake, command?

To be clear: using the "-remake" command to remove pirate tattoos or outcast status from your character is considered an exploit. The only way to remove pirate tattoos, at least at present, is as stated earlier in the thread: you apply to the DM team showing your roleplay has taken you away from piracy, and if accepted, your character is granted a Mark of Dauntlessness when the tattoos are removed.

DM Nixie wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:58 am

Morto wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:56 pm

if you're considering removing all gear/gold a valid option. Can Pirate ink be "removed" with simply using the -remake, command?

To be clear: using the "-remake" command to remove pirate tattoos or outcast status from your character is considered an exploit. The only way to remove pirate tattoos, at least at present, is as stated earlier in the thread: you apply to the DM team showing your roleplay has taken you away from piracy, and if accepted, your character is granted a Mark of Dauntlessness when the tattoos are removed.

Is the same true for outcast characters?

edit: whoops, I must have misread the response, I see it now!

The inked removal doesn't effect me as a player, as I'm genuinely happy with my pirate rp, but it is a rare occurrence when you have an overflowing ship of sailors these days. Which makes it challenging. Even more so when you do wrangle a crew together only to invest time and coin into helping them level and kit out before they ultimately roll and just disappear. Definitely their choice, and not a bash against any players for doing so, but finding a way to make Sencliff more worth a roleplay investment is my thoughts on ink removal.

Generally, rules like this are built because in the past it was abused. Or it was built in mechanically when the content was added. It would be something that should potentially be changed in the future, in my opinion of course. But seeing a lot of great players drop completely, since their story line has "ended" is disheartening. While if we have the potential for a future story arc, I'm curious if this would alleviate that.
Not to say I don't thinking there shouldn't be a down side to the removal. Actions have consequences and I feel like we can come up with a better one to enhance a story rather then ending it entirely while a person is trying to build off it. As our current approach is generally... Die, or roll your character for the reward before that happens. A m.o.d can be an amazing thing that forces a player to player differently and take action into consideration. But, it also completely changes how someone would play a character.

The outcast tag swap could be an interesting outcome, as a lot of pirates tend to retire down in the UD for more roleplay and safety. But having an option for Guld should be discussed as well, as it is a "free port" and as a neutral city finding a way to make an out for players to go their would be a worthwhile concept. I don't expect a former pirate to end up on the cordorian guards anytime in the future. But the fact we are not allowing the players to work and roleplay out these concepts of story progression at all is my main concern.

Dreams wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:33 pm

DM Nixie wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:58 am

Morto wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:56 pm

if you're considering removing all gear/gold a valid option. Can Pirate ink be "removed" with simply using the -remake, command?

To be clear: using the "-remake" command to remove pirate tattoos or outcast status from your character is considered an exploit. The only way to remove pirate tattoos, at least at present, is as stated earlier in the thread: you apply to the DM team showing your roleplay has taken you away from piracy, and if accepted, your character is granted a Mark of Dauntlessness when the tattoos are removed.

Is the same true for outcast characters?

edit: whoops, I must have misread the response, I see it now!

My leveling up was wild and fun, as I got thrown into a lot of super heavy roleplay and got to experience a deep storyline from the start, my general goal as roleplaying at high-level is to give that same experience to newer players. Half the fun of Arelith is those fresh alts coming in and experiencing their roleplay and stories. Arelith is a compelling world because we have both though imo, you need fresh cycling in faces. But you also need those long standing pillars in communities both put together make it feel like a living breathing world.

Nevirmore wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:45 pm

The inked removal doesn't effect me as a player, as I'm genuinely happy with my pirate rp, but it is a rare occurrence when you have an overflowing ship of sailors these days. Which makes it challenging. Even more so when you do wrangle a crew together only to invest time and coin into helping them level and kit out before they ultimately roll and just disappear. Definitely their choice, and not a bash against any players for doing so, but finding a way to make Sencliff more worth a roleplay investment is my thoughts on ink removal.

Sencliff is and always will be an ebb and flow. I'm not sure what the best advice is for the down times, I've been through them myself, but generally it always picks back up eventually. That being said, if everyone just removed the ink during the ebbs, the flows would always come up short because there was no one left to be "the person" who brings them together.

One thing I will say- In general, discord is a HUGE boon for sailing. I generally can take or leave discord for groups, but when it comes to sailing its almost mandatory. I'm sure the sailing discord and the pirate discord both still exist, and often it's as simple as saying "who's up to sail from the cliff on Thursday at 6 pm eastern" or something similar, and let it grow from there. You can use the faction functions to do the same thing, but...discord lol. It just makes things easier.

I always adore these kind of RP. On that breaks status quo in a sense of going against the setting of Arelith.

I've seen a keeper made to fall, banite made to convert, several alignment change on cleric to get multiple languages (i forgot the story, but an oghman monk/cleric), gnoll slave breaking chains from thayan master, infiltration to character reveal + assassination

These are the simpler ones, since the setting somehow permits us to seek such stories with the classes and races we have chosen. It requires DM mediation thru very very small alignment change each RP session.

The extreme ones: Surface dwelling goblins (neutral/good), Eilistraeean drow, warlock breaking pact (back when it was in setting lore that all warlocks are bards initially, the bard song as the offering in exchange for the warlock staff - no relevel will fix this) - these are doomed from the start, with inevitable failure as outcome. (Either they achieve what they could but die in the process, or just outright fail). These scenario are against the setting.

Question is, is it really that extreme for a pirate to erase his/her "badge" in search of a better and more honest life? It could be done but you're given mark of the dauntlessness, which means your story could end at any moment's time.

Are outcast treated the same? You've done an unforgivable act that society shuns you, but is it only your death that can absolve you of such sins? Could one rise up to be the hero, survive and be accepted back to society? Unlikely but possible.

The odds are stacked against you for both scenario, and I think the mark of the dauntlessness reflects that perfectly. You're given 10 deaths as a chance to make the ending you like. Should the toon die, you can only hope its a meaningful death (you only have 9 deaths to choose from, the 10th is uncontrollable). You can always roll before the 10th and seek out a peaceful end to the character story (or an off the isle ending). But honestly I find an Arelithian ending more appealing than an off the isle one.

TLDR: Just provided more questions than answer.
But I think MoD and DM mediation is reasonable since your odds are stacked.

Ping14 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 4:18 pm

I always adore these kind of RP. On that breaks status quo in a sense of going against the setting of Arelith.

I've seen a keeper made to fall, banite made to convert, several alignment change on cleric to get multiple languages (i forgot the story, but an oghman monk/cleric), gnoll slave breaking chains from thayan master, infiltration to character reveal + assassination

These are the simpler ones, since the setting somehow permits us to seek such stories with the classes and races we have chosen. It requires DM mediation thru very very small alignment change each RP session.

The extreme ones: Surface dwelling goblins (neutral/good), Eilistraeean drow, warlock breaking pact (back when it was in setting lore that all warlocks are bards initially, the bard song as the offering in exchange for the warlock staff - no relevel will fix this) - these are doomed from the start, with inevitable failure as outcome. (Either they achieve what they could but die in the process, or just outright fail). These scenario are against the setting.

Question is, is it really that extreme for a pirate to erase his/her "badge" in search of a better and more honest life? It could be done but you're given mark of the dauntlessness, which means your story could end at any moment's time.

Are outcast treated the same? You've done an unforgivable act that society shuns you, but is it only your death that can absolve you of such sins? Could one rise up to be the hero, survive and be accepted back to society? Unlikely but possible.

The odds are stacked against you for both scenario, and I think the mark of the dauntlessness reflects that perfectly. You're given 10 deaths as a chance to make the ending you like. Should the toon die, you can only hope its a meaningful death (you only have 9 deaths to choose from, the 10th is uncontrollable). You can always roll before the 10th and seek out a peaceful end to the character story (or an off the isle ending). But honestly I find an Arelithian ending more appealing than an off the isle one.

TLDR: Just provided more questions than answer.
But I think MoD and DM mediation is reasonable since your odds are stacked.

I think the whole point is why shouldn't a pirate who has done the work and RP not be allowed to work for a certain settlement without removing their ink. Especially when said settlement has a Thayan Khazark on the council as well as other various known evil organizations.

TheDoctor wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:46 pm

I think the whole point is why shouldn't a pirate who has done the work and RP not be allowed to work for a certain settlement without removing their ink. Especially when said settlement has a Thayan Khazark on the council as well as other various known evil organizations.

One of the pitfalls of being so far behind in editions is that certain entities, in particular the evil ones but it's also true of some good ones, have gone through massive changes. In 1372, the Zulkirs are still in charge in thay, they are still pushing their "spread influence around the world through merchanting" agenda. Not only does that mean they are trying to pretend they are everyone's buddies still, but it would also likely put them in direct conflict with pirates. It's not until 1375 that Szass Tam murdered the other Zulkirs and took total control of the nation, becoming the undead super threat they are in modern Forgotten realms, a scene shown in the D&D movie in a flashback.

That's not to say that a Thayan of 1372 wouldn't have a side hustle with a pirate or two, they probably would if the opportunity presented itself, especially if they could use it to screw over a rival red wizard or something along those lines. It's just a public alliance would go against the current Thayan Agenda.

And that's not even touching how wrong wanting to "work for a settlement" seems for a pirate. A pirate is essentially an anarchist, someone that wants to live free of the confines of society and its rules. They take what they want when they want it, and the only law they prescribe to is the captain runs the ship. At least until one of the pirates decide they want to be captain, in which case they just might go ahead and try and take that. So, while pirates may vary in method and degrees of evil, they do all share the love of freedom from societal norms.

As a side note about the last bit, I do wish there was a way to give npc ships a chance to surrender without bloodshed for the neutral pirates, but because of the limitations of the game they get a pass on all that murder, at least imo.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:43 pm

One of the pitfalls of being so far behind in editions is that certain entities, in particular the evil ones but it's also true of some good ones, have gone through massive changes. In 1372, the Zulkirs are still in charge in thay, they are still pushing their "spread influence around the world through merchanting" agenda. Not only does that mean they are trying to pretend they are everyone's buddies still, but it would also likely put them in direct conflict with pirates. It's not until 1375 that Szass Tam murdered the other Zulkirs and took total control of the nation, becoming the undead super threat they are in modern Forgotten realms, a scene shown in the D&D movie in a flashback.

As a side note about the last bit, I do wish there was a way to give npc ships a chance to surrender without bloodshed for the neutral pirates, but because of the limitations of the game they get a pass on all that murder, at least imo.

Well you can in a weird, but not really kind of way. You just have to RP it a bit.

Two ways..

One.. Just dont do the boarding and leave after you disable (Not a good choice, you give up chests and only get cargo)

Two..Send the sneak over, sneakgrab the chests, come back no killing.

I;d love to see a better way for the non-evil pirates to succeed but alas.

As for your point about Thay thats simply not true. Even with Arileth time divergence. Beginning in the 10th century Thay owned slaves blatently as well as used undead for many things.. Thats 300 or so years before the time shift... So yeah the history is there and I'm not even getting into the attacks on other cities that took place well before our time shift either. Also dont forget the Zhent Embassy there as well.

helitron wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:31 am

I really don't get why removal of pirate ink is even a thing. Everyone should consider very carefully what it means to sign up with pirates and the consequences thereof. Removing your ink like a shirt should not happen - then there is also no discussion about MoD. You can't really expect a pirate to become a citizen of Cordor or Guldorand after gaining his wealth and Dreadpirate reputation by killing thousands of Navy sailors and sinking their ships. How would these settlements even accept these persons?

It would be acceptable if they try to settle down under a disguise name and try to survive that way without loosing their pirate status and hoping that nobody blows their cover - in case they really want to move on from Sencliff.

Outcast in Andunor is another possibility, but they should be still known to be former pirates - but I don't know if that is mechanically possible.

My character only took Writs for things like, exploration, sand bars, and freeing prisoner ships, killing captain d walker(slaver) and the like

I gained my wealth freeing slaves

"dreadpirate" is a term that is misleading in some cases, some of these people simply exist outside the scope of the law but are not evil

the whole reason i started even doing this in the first place was because Cordor told me I cant chain break etc.

Sure, its rebellious and a slap in the face, but its not EVIL and truly, in many ways, its uplifting to see people doing good despite good people telling you youre bad

Nevirmore wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:45 pm

The inked removal doesn't effect me as a player, as I'm genuinely happy with my pirate rp, but it is a rare occurrence when you have an overflowing ship of sailors these days. Which makes it challenging. Even more so when you do wrangle a crew together only to invest time and coin into helping them level and kit out before they ultimately roll and just disappear. Definitely their choice, and not a bash against any players for doing so, but finding a way to make Sencliff more worth a roleplay investment is my thoughts on ink removal.

Generally, rules like this are built because in the past it was abused. Or it was built in mechanically when the content was added. It would be something that should potentially be changed in the future, in my opinion of course. But seeing a lot of great players drop completely, since their story line has "ended" is disheartening. While if we have the potential for a future story arc, I'm curious if this would alleviate that.
Not to say I don't thinking there shouldn't be a down side to the removal. Actions have consequences and I feel like we can come up with a better one to enhance a story rather then ending it entirely while a person is trying to build off it. As our current approach is generally... Die, or roll your character for the reward before that happens. A m.o.d can be an amazing thing that forces a player to player differently and take action into consideration. But, it also completely changes how someone would play a character.

The outcast tag swap could be an interesting outcome, as a lot of pirates tend to retire down in the UD for more roleplay and safety. But having an option for Guld should be discussed as well, as it is a "free port" and as a neutral city finding a way to make an out for players to go their would be a worthwhile concept. I don't expect a former pirate to end up on the cordorian guards anytime in the future. But the fact we are not allowing the players to work and roleplay out these concepts of story progression at all is my main concern.

Sencliff is lacking many things other settlements have. Example, many boast about the "taxless and lack of government" which may be a boon of its own, but removing settlement functions, also, removes RP. The town guard RP? Doesnt exist. Mayor Rp? Not here!

So what do we get in exchange for this MASSIVE loss in potential rp?,...Nothing

Radiants get a Ring, im sure other factions get things mechanically...

The only thing that my dread ink affords me is to enter the dread estate, and use a ...well....anyways, its the only one on the ISLE and its jus CRAZY that is the BIG SHEBANG for being a dread pirate

We need some settlement function, we need something that makes sencliff more than jus a sail and log off cycle. The pop drops post sail, and most of the time sencliff is jus empty island wide