AA feedback

[Dreams]

Deep AAs just lost 5 AB in one nerf. That's an huge hit. I don't disagree about AAs having too much AB but why go so deep just to get to +5? On top of that, lower dip AAs just lost their sure striking - The only reason you'd do the 20 Wiz/10AA stuff is because you can still break someone's premonition. There isn't enough synergy to make it worthwhile to be a caster, and there isn't enough to make it worthwhile to go deep.

I know you can still make AAs and you can still play them. I don't doubt that people are going to appear in here and talk about how they're still overpowered or whatever. My issue is that there's now no real benefit to going deep, and the possibility of a low dip mixed with other classes just isn't worthwhile at all now.

[AstralUniverse]

I think this update is spot on. I'm actually not sure yet whether or not AA is still overpowered after this update.

Previously certain build(s) could reach about 62-63 effective ab, which means even while risk free run-shooting they would hit most of their attacks. The other problem I had with AA is that the abilities never miss except on 1s and that's been fixed as well. Now a whole party that would previously get nuked by an AA can now press improved expertise and turn the tides. I didnt really have a problem that they get +5 arrows on 9th but in a retrospective thinking, they did get +5 weapon grade a bit too effortlessly. Now at lvl 17th that's more or less in line with other classes who get +5 weapon, and it's a good reason to go deep-ish just as any other class. Also high quiver level is another good reason to go deep. If anything, there's less reason to go not deep as far as I can see.

I would also like to comment on the team's plan to improve (I assume buff) other none-AA archers.

Unnecessary. They were never bad, just shadowed by AA.

[RedGiant]

Let us not forget this is a damage loss as well. This coupled with the movement penalties puts AAs in a not-great place. Their damage was already deeply sub-par to weapon-masters, who we gave sprint I might add. This might have originally been eyed as a fix to the kiting issue, but I think in doing both, we may have gone too far. Playing an AA, there is always a pause in movement to shoot. You cannot, as one staff member used to say, "push 'w' + click heads=win." Finally, a Warlock Blaster posts similar numbers and is now simply superior in most ways that matter.

I would be interested to know if existing ranger AAs will be grandfathered or if they are heading to the scrap heap. My only AA is base ranger.

[Starbridge]

Let us not forget this is a damage loss as well. This coupled with the movement penalties puts AAs in a not-great place. Their damage was already deeply sub-par to weapon-masters, who we gave sprint I might add. This might have originally been eyed as a fix to the kiting issue, but I think in doing both, we may have gone too far. Playing an AA, there is always a pause in movement to shoot. You cannot, as one staff member used to say, "push 'w' + click heads=win." Finally, a Warlock Blaster posts similar numbers and is now simply superior in most ways that matter.

I would be interested to know if existing ranger AAs will be grandfathered or if they are heading to the scrap heap. My only AA is base ranger.

Comparing AA to WM isn't even close to a level comparison. WM do amazing damage because its melee, you physically have to run to your target before you can do damage as where AA can pull off multiple shots. I think it was good to bring damage down for AA, they are still vastly better with bows than a fighter and I am looking forward to seeing what feats are on the way to help non-AA range characters.

[Kalthariam]

Wait are people trying to argue that Arcane Archer wasn't monstrously overpowered and didn't deserve a nerf?

I sincerely hope this is a joke, because Arcane Archers have been blatantly so overpowered that all other ranged classes have suffered immensely because giving them benefits would only make arcane archers stronger.

Good Riddance to the weird elf only class. Maybe all the other archery classes can finally step out of their damn shadows and actually get real support.

[RedGiant]

To the point of the OP, this inevitably cuts out some of the less-optimized, more interesting builds. My own SD AA was unsalvageable and could only fit 11 lvls for +3 Enchant. So, I'm out. Rolled for a greater. I feel lucky for the trade.

[Edens_Fall]

I want to suggest removing the movement penalty on archers, as they now have an AB equal to that of other optimized builds. There's no need for this additional penalty to remain as it was first introduced to counter their high AB, which has now been fixed.

[Spyre]

I want to suggest removing the movement penalty on archers, as they now have an AB equal to that of other optimized builds. There's no need for this additional penalty to remain as it was first introduced to counter their high AB, which has now been fixed.

That wasn't the reason for it. So no.

[Svrtr]

I want to suggest removing the movement penalty on archers, as they now have an AB equal to that of other optimized builds. There's no need for this additional penalty to remain as it was first introduced to counter their high AB, which has now been fixed.

The reason that this was added was due to the fact archers could effectively "run and gun", aka attack while moving and thus be able to hit enemies whilst being unable to be hit themselves. It wasn't about the AA AB, but about this ability to attack whilst moving

[Dreams]

To the point of the OP, this inevitably cuts out some of the less-optimized, more interesting builds. My own SD AA was unsalvageable and could only fit 11 lvls for +3 Enchant. So, I'm out. Rolled for a greater. I feel lucky for the trade.

This is entirely the point. How do people play the more interesting versions of things when everything is balanced and adjusted only for those who take advantage of every possible AB point?

My suggestion is that the enchant arrow might scale with the caster class at a slower rate than the AA class so that different builds can still achieve the +5 arrows (I don’t care so much about anything above that).

For example: 21 Wiz / 9 AA.
Sounds weird but it worked out alright if you were a specialist wizard and with an alright DEX score. The spell scaling and the quiver scaling made this work out ok, but it has now lost the critical thing it had going for why it was ok… +5 arrows. Shooting through stoneskin/premonition, the sure striking aspect, the AB bonus, and the damage bonus. All of it was needed for this build.

Unseelie Warlock 10 / 9 AA / Shifter 11.
Sounds ridiculous but actually worked out ok as a fun to play and variable PvE focused thing. Despite juggling stats you’d end up going deep WIS with zen archery for shapes, whilst using CHA for a few spells and AA abilities.

Any of those AA/SD builds are dead, same goes for the vigilante builds that made use of AA.

[RedGiant]

If this is the rationale, I'm even more curious now why kiting is enabled for mounted archers, who have a permanent haste-like movement speed?

[Edens_Fall]

I want to suggest removing the movement penalty on archers, as they now have an AB equal to that of other optimized builds. There's no need for this additional penalty to remain as it was first introduced to counter their high AB, which has now been fixed.

The reason that this was added was due to the fact archers could effectively "run and gun", aka attack while moving and thus be able to hit enemies whilst being unable to be hit themselves. It wasn't about the AA AB, but about this ability to attack whilst moving

Ah, ~ Thanks for the clarification.

[Edens_Fall]

I want to suggest removing the movement penalty on archers, as they now have an AB equal to that of other optimized builds. There's no need for this additional penalty to remain as it was first introduced to counter their high AB, which has now been fixed.

That wasn't the reason for it. So no.

duly noted

[vaclavc]

For example: 21 Wiz / 9 AA.
Unseelie Warlock 10 / 9 AA / Shifter 11.
Any of those AA/SD builds are dead, same goes for the vigilante builds that made use of AA.

Same with Wiz15/AA11/Ran4. My all time favorite weirdo archer-wizard build has been hit hard by the nerf bat.
I really look forward what the devs plan to introduce to improve the archer experience, but it would be nice if the new things were introduced together with nerfs to compensate.

-V-

[Heroic Spirit]

I really look forward what the devs plan to introduce to improve the archer experience, but it would be nice if the new things were introduced together with nerfs to compensate.

throwing a bone here, since this is something that I've worked on. It's already been approved and scripted, just going through the final review stages.

4 ranged special attacks, including ricochet.

QoL stuff:
thrown bundles create same amount as ammunition (arrows, bolts, bullets)
throwing axe weight

the rest, you'll have to wait and see

[vaclavc]

4 ranged special attacks, including ricochet.

QoL stuff:
thrown bundles create same amount as ammunition (arrows, bolts, bullets)
throwing axe weight

the rest, you'll have to wait and see

Oooh, that sounds really awesome, thanks for the teaser!

-V-