Arelith

I don't know if this is a hot take but compared to something like Art Crafting or Smithing I think Herbalism is a massive pain in the Snuggybear. Things like FoM potions are meaningful sure but as far as the ease with which you can just gather mats exclusively w/ your core trade and convert those mats into profits Herb is one of the worst trades. I think it's got a great abundance of rp flavor via foods don't get me wrong but I don't think think it's remotely competitive in terms of converting effort to money.

I wouldn't mind some rarer things to craft on herbalism. I adore all the food options (would definitely love more drink options that can go into a box though). And some of the potions are good like FoM and Black Potions of Warding, but at the OG poster states, the materials are a pain to gather and the profits for sale tiny. Potions of Heal lost a lot of interest after they got nerfed and healing draughts are just so expensive to make CP wise. Most of the other potions aren't even worth it. And don't get me started on the sheer quantity of coal needed. Coal to make glass, coal to make vials, coal to make bottles, coal for several other recipes. I spend days just mining coal with my mage noodle arms.

I'm not sure what sort of big ticket items equal to the other crafts you could add. I guess Herbalism doesn't really get any runes or weight boxes either, though this could also be applied to alchemy which is, I think in a similar boat as Herbalism.

On the flip side, alchemy and herbalism are always things people will always need. Whereas a person will generally only buy 1 set of epic gear. So I guess maybe it's a little trade off for that. Though, I do absolutely feel the pain of spending 2 days making one batch of healing draughts to have them be sold overnight. I'm constantly gathering and crafting to keep shops stocked. And I would love the Mundane Potions to be better as well. FoM and Black Potions of Warding are good because there is no brew potion alternative. Whereas Giant Strength or any of the others, there is. Maybe more potions can be added (or existing ones replaced) with mundane potions that can't be brewed with Brew Potion.

With 56 Herbalism I could make twenty and a half Healing Draughts on my herbalist with a craft point dump. I'd hoped there'd be some follow up adjustments to recipes after the Brew-Potion change but we've gone without.

Tailoring, Art Crafting, Alchemy, and Smithing all felt a lot more enjoyable to do.

Trades arent equal. Some of them have a better pay-off solo, some of them have better pay off in collaborations. When it comes to Herbalism, the most powerful trade in the game, there should be trade-offs. It shouldnt also be the most profitable trade in the game. It currectly is profitable enough.

The struggle with herbalism, really, is the material hunt.

When it comes to smithing, tailoring, and carpentry, yes you only sell any given character a single set of armor, but for that set of armor you might make 150,000gp in sales for it… yet to get that sort of sales volume for herbalism (or alchemy) takes a hell of a lot more material gathering.

Sure, long term you can make more from herbalism, but the material gathering for it means that it will consume your life just trying to keep your store stocked.

Good example: Heal Potions

Requirement: Mojo [glass vial (sand and coal, then more coal), fruit (easy), phenalope (easy), aventurine dust (grind up a raw aventurine gemstone)], then a glass bottle (sand and coal, then more coal), alexandrite dust (grind up a raw alexandrite gemstone), lady’s tear (manageable enough to gather in large quantities), king’s crown (cannot plant it, very few plants, either you have to use the druid sickle to gather heaps of it or break server rules to sit near a plant for days on end gathering it).

And for all that effort crafting, you sell a potion of heal for, what? 2,000gp at most.

People will buy a full stack of those and not blink, but it’ll take you a full 24 hours of crafting to get that 100 done for most herbalists, not to mention the time it takes to get the king’s crown, coal, sand, and make glass, vials, bottles, mojo, and grind up gem dusts.

Herbalism has its pay offs, absolutely, but it’s so grindy as to be immensely frustrating.

A smith can make a living just from selling mithral helms if they want to, which takes… oh wait, mithral ingots and coal.

A herbalist has no choice but to run all over the server, cross into other skills (or buy materials and reduce profits), and grind their Snuggybear off in order to make the stuff everyone wants.

The least grindy “wanted” potion is the Healing Draught, and they have so little profit for the work involved as well as functionally being replaced by potions recovered from monsters or bought from an NPC, that making them is demoralising.

Where herbalism shines is for those who only make for themselves. Then? Sure, it’s great.

Want to run a herbalist store? Prepare to grind like you’re a coffee machine, because you ain’t ever stopping unless you want your store to run dry.

More potions!

Herbalism is the strongest craft for any combat, given the Drinks that grant fresh bonuses - since that change the number of people taking herbalism has shot up.

My preference would be to make the Drinks fresh bonus default, and then herbalism can instead be improved in other ways, like suggested by some in this thread.

Sure, but the "fresh bonuses" don't apply for shop stuff. They get stale real quick, and they don't stack so they're not a good option (for the most part) to put in a store.

I disagree with the premise that herbalism is "the most annoying" thing to gather for. It's just got a lot of ingredients, but once you get that part down you can literally grind the bestselling stuff with no investment at all (bait, heal potions, ect) with minimal effort. Smithing is actually the most annoying because you either A) rip off your customers or B) spend all your time grinding materials. And while choice A may seem good to you, know that it's going to be an ebb and flow. Once two more smiths come into your area, it's now a price war lol. Plus, everything needs addy, so if you want to be a high-end smith the grind gets even worse.

As to the point of the op though, sure, I think everything can always have new neat things to craft. 60 dc +20 (or whatever bardsong boost is these days) to sail for 24 hours potions when?

I don't know about using it to make money, but especially on a mundane character, being able to make your own potions is a real boon. Personally I wish there were some specialty drinks that aren't liquor, but it seems they all are, it's like everybody has a drinking problem.

Rei_Jin wrote: Sun Apr 06, 2025 5:00 am

Very good read.

So I generally agree with you, but I feel like the issue is complex. Hebalism is in fact the best trade in the game, if only because you can make your own stuff and not relay on others when it comes to critically important consumables, and also it's the only way one can reliably have fresh bonuses. It means that regardless how good the trade is for money making, you're going to see a lot of herbalists who recognize that it's the best freakin' trade in the game. Endgame armor, you only need one. +4 damage essence, you only really need one, etc etc... But herbalism? Everybody needs their weekly fix of edibles. Best trade in the game. There's an argument for Alchemy going second place because of bombs... again - high value consumables.

So we've established that we should expect to see a high ratio of herbalists who arent really in it with money making in mind. Truth is all trades are kinda awful for money making vs time investment compared to dungeoning. But trade offers a lot of rp angles so why not craft the random stuff I find anyway. These herbalists then naturally have more competition, less costumers per herbalist, and the trade becomes over all less profitable. This is the correct outcome, in my opinion. The herbalist has the choice whether or not to increase the prices because...

Rei_Jin wrote: Sun Apr 06, 2025 5:00 am

And for all that effort crafting, you sell a potion of heal for, what? 2,000gp at most.

and

Rei_Jin wrote: Sun Apr 06, 2025 5:00 am

People will buy a full stack of those and not blink, but it’ll take you a full 24 hours of crafting to get that 100 done for most herbalists

Absolutely Astral, I agree that from a personal use perspective, Herbalism is great.

This is what makes it a complex issue, because those smiths, tailors, and art-crafters who are heavily invested in their trade still need consumables, and those consumables have to come from somewhere.

They also won’t pay too much for them, because you’re competing against (in most cases) wand usage and potions you can either get with the Brew Potion feat or from NPCs and monsters.

Healing Draught is a great example of this, because the one bonus the herbalist version has is that it works in anti-magic areas. Very niche, rarely matters.

The materials for it? Easy and cheap

DC? Low

Points cost? 54 (so 27 with mastery) for ten potions.

Thing is, there’s a cost ceiling of about 400gp because you can buy CCW potions from NPCs for that much.

The average smith, tailor, or carpenter can walk into a settlement and get paid 5000gp for dumping 50 crafting points into a trade project.

If a herbalist makes twenty Healing Draughts, they can sell them to someone for about 250-300gp each, so a similar income point, through a store, except that there’s taxes and minor material costs.

So this is okay, assuming folk want to buy them.

And each one will heal about 60-ish HP.

A Heal potion, by comparison, heals 165hp I believe?

So let’s say it heals three times what a Healing Draught does, and folks will drink them like (boozy) water in tough combat.

So you multiply the cost of a Healing Draught by 6 or so (three Healing Draughts, but double again for action economy saving), getting you into the 1500-1800 price range, maybe 2,000gp.

If you go over this, other Herbalists will undercut you in most circumstances (and burn out) because some folk want to help others… and this is their choice.

The issue with these isn’t even the points cost (around 950ish points if you do it all yourself with herbalism mastery rolls and 1 point in art), it’s the difficulty in getting King’s Crown.

Thing is, for 950ish points you make 200,000gp, and yes, that’s about double what a smith makes dumping points into crafts for folks… although material costs and taxes mean that you’re putting in a lot more work for that income. Heal potions are okay, if you can use Druid Sickles to get King’s Crown or have some other workaround to get something that spawns once every twenty minutes in lots of 1-5, in rare locations that players are not supposed to sit on and harvest for days.

Freedom of Movement potions, by comparison, sell for about 500-600gp, cost the same in crafting points, with easier to get materials. So you get maybe 60,000gp, for what a smith can get 95,000gp, AND you have materials and taxes coming out of that.

A fairer price for FoM and Deathward potions would be around 1,000gp each, and about 600gp each for NEP (points cost for those is less, but materials cost, etc.) .

Good luck selling at those prices though.

Why?

Because you are competing directly against wands for those potions for most characters.

So your choice is to price for your effort and not get sales, or price competitively to get sales and watch that effort not really reward you.

And with Heal potions, the functional rarity of King’s Crown really means that they should be selling for more than they are (although if they are too much more expensive we’re incentivising folk to break server rules, which is a bad idea), but the market, again, won’t support such price increases.

I think the prevailing point is that herbalism is not a good merchant craft. It doesn't need to be though, not everyone has to merchant. Considering you can just sell heal potions to a merchant for pure profit it will still generate you gold, its just going to underperform as say a "Herbalist shop". I had a shop in Guldorand with my last herbalist, I made heal potions and maybe a few others if I had time and let Khorin run the rest of it lol. Everyone was happy.

I am so tired. All the other potion buyers are addicted to me. Everyone buys from me. Everyone wants my potions-- they think my CP is unlimited. I run from garden to garden collecting herbs crafting potions for them and as I make more they buy more. I am a victim of my own success. Potion seller. I don't even get a real name only a function. I am capable of so many other crafts and no one will ever see them. Some days I am so tired I could cry, but I don't. I never do. Because what would be the point? Crying wont make my CP fill faster. Take it to the Fugue.

Herbalist made potions could also be made a bit better to compete with other potions, improve sweetberry wine haste from 5 caster levels to 10 like casters can make with brew potion, or increase barkskin from 3 to 12. Increasing their value and their usability, no more competing with NPC vendors.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:09 pm

I think the prevailing point is that herbalism is not a good merchant craft. It doesn't need to be though, not everyone has to merchant. Considering you can just sell heal potions to a merchant for pure profit it will still generate you gold, its just going to underperform as say a "Herbalist shop". I had a shop in Guldorand with my last herbalist, I made heal potions and maybe a few others if I had time and let Khorin run the rest of it lol. Everyone was happy.

Security_Blanket wrote: Sun Apr 06, 2025 12:55 pm

I don't know about using it to make money, but especially on a mundane character, being able to make your own potions is a real boon. Personally I wish there were some specialty drinks that aren't liquor, but it seems they all are, it's like everybody has a drinking problem.

I do not find it satisfying to sell potions to an NPC, or to run a shop with "heal potions and maybe a few others" that I must expect to do poorly per unit time of investment. I don't see how it's relevant to say that not everyone has to merchant - I think it's fun to run shops and sell things. If I can't do that with one of the professions, that seems less fun to me. I do not see why this craft should be relegated to supporting mundie endgame solo play just because it presently excels at it. That is extremely narrow and does not satisfy a great many fantasies. "Man who makes potions for self" is just not very fun or social.

Pam wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 1:09 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:09 pm

I think the prevailing point is that herbalism is not a good merchant craft. It doesn't need to be though, not everyone has to merchant. Considering you can just sell heal potions to a merchant for pure profit it will still generate you gold, its just going to underperform as say a "Herbalist shop". I had a shop in Guldorand with my last herbalist, I made heal potions and maybe a few others if I had time and let Khorin run the rest of it lol. Everyone was happy.

Security_Blanket wrote: Sun Apr 06, 2025 12:55 pm

I don't know about using it to make money, but especially on a mundane character, being able to make your own potions is a real boon. Personally I wish there were some specialty drinks that aren't liquor, but it seems they all are, it's like everybody has a drinking problem.

I do not find it satisfying to sell potions to an NPC, or to run a shop with "heal potions and maybe a few others" that I must expect to do poorly per unit time of investment. I don't see how it's relevant to say that not everyone has to merchant - I think it's fun to run shops and sell things. If I can't do that with one of the professions, that seems less fun to me. I do not see why this craft should be relegated to supporting mundie endgame solo play just because it presently excels at it. That is extremely narrow and does not satisfy a great many fantasies. "Man who makes potions for self" is just not very fun or social.

I had to reread what I was talking about lol.

Look, if you want to scream into the wind that herbalism got the shaft, go for it. It's because every build for the most part can use wands though, and wands are just cheaper. Potions are better for pvp because they are faster at recovering from dispels/breaches, and good players usually have a small stock of key stuff there, but for bulk use against pve most builds are just going to go with the much cheaper wands.

That being said, while "herbalism shops" are more or less busts, you can probably get richer dumping heal potions on the population than any other craft, just because it's so easy to gather everything yourself with no cost or real time investment at all. And it's also a super beneficial craft to take if you are a mundane yourself (mixed with 20 alchemy or so) because your biggest cost is going to be paying for the overpriced potions (Compared to wands) but if you gather as you go you can do it for mostly free. So, to call it a "bad craft" is also wrong.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. You have four crafts that are great for running a shop and loading it up with high end gear that people actually use regularly, some items on every character they make because of lock picking and stuff. They just take more time/cost to do right, because you aren't going to find everything you need as easily as you can for herbalism and alchemy. And honestly, if you boosted herbalism too much, it would be the only logical choice for maximizing gold intake, which in my mind is very much a bad thing.

You are free to disagree, and try to fight to get it changed, I'm just telling you why my position on it is what it is.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:15 pm

Look, if you want to scream into the wind that herbalism got the shaft, go for it.

I do not have a cohesive understanding of herbalism's place in Arelith's ecosystem. Whether or not it "got the shaft" or "is a bad craft" is unknown to me and irrelevant.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:15 pm

It's because every build for the most part can use wands though, and wands are just cheaper. Potions are better for pvp because they are faster at recovering from dispels/breaches, and good players usually have a small stock of key stuff there, but for bulk use against pve most builds are just going to go with the much cheaper wands.

OK, so people use wands over potions typically. That sounds like something that makes herbalism more niche.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:15 pm

That being said, while "herbalism shops" are more or less busts, you can probably get richer dumping heal potions on the population than any other craft, just because it's so easy to gather everything yourself with no cost or real time investment at all.

I'm not sure if you're saying that I could sell them for lots of money in a player shop, or repeating the idea that I can dump them on NPCs. In the case of player shops, I think it sounds boring to only be able to sell one kind of potion to other people. In the case of selling things to NPCs, that sounds extremely boring and lonely.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:15 pm

And it's also a super beneficial craft to take if you are a mundane yourself (mixed with 20 alchemy or so) because your biggest cost is going to be paying for the overpriced potions (Compared to wands) but if you gather as you go you can do it for mostly free. So, to call it a "bad craft" is also wrong.

This feels like a restatement of the idea that herbalism is good because it feeds solo play. Solo play is not really the most exciting or core idea on Arelith. I'd also say that, since we established that wands are much cheaper, if all I'm doing is upgrading from wands to potions, then all I've done is replace a cheap good with my own (admittedly small) labor. Sounds okay, I dunno.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:15 pm

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. You have four crafts that are great for running a shop and loading it up with high end gear that people actually use regularly, some items on every character they make because of lock picking and stuff. They just take more time/cost to do right, because you aren't going to find everything you need as easily as you can for herbalism and alchemy.

The fact that there are other crafts available that you can run a shop with doesn't seem relevant to me. People are apparently interested in running herbalism shops. To say they could be a smith instead is not satisfying.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:15 pm

And honestly, if you boosted herbalism too much, it would be the only logical choice for maximizing gold intake, which in my mind is very much a bad thing.

You do not have to imagine a world where everything is the same, except now herbalism is better at running a shop and thereby better than everything else. It might be nice for example if herbalism were balanced to be less good at serving solo play, and better at serving other players. Then it would be matched with the other crafts and there would be room for it to be a social activity. People who previously bought wands because they are cheap may come to buy potions if there were a meaningful player market around such a thing, and then people could have a potion selling fantasy. It would be fun.

Everyone I've known who plays an herbalist (including myself) has found the profession extremely tedious. It's a lot of clutter and random material to make potions that usually have a pretty poor CP conversion.

It's a combination of having to sort through multiple bags for getting the little things out, as well as materials that can't be put into a bag. (Namely vials, bottles and mojo.) And there's just so much of them, so you have to constantly recollect the clutter, or have extra lying around.

100 glass bottles won't last you long for herbalism. But when compared to alchemy, for example, 100 glass bottles will last you a long time, if you're just making catalysts, which are pretty consistent, reliable profit.

It was a profession balanced around the brew potion interaction, and now, it just feels kind of meh.

Personally, I don't see the fresh bonuses as something so strong that herbalism can't be buffed.

Herbalism is really only the 'strongest' craft if you're considering purely end-game, fully geared, infinite wealth characters. Sometimes, the strongest craft is the one that makes you the most money, since it means you can get your gearing done faster, and have a larger access of consumables to work with.

I entertained this idea with the team the other day—

Food.

Cooking.

Cuisine.

Mainly inspired by Dungeon Meshi, what if we take how the characters fill their Food Meter seriously?

Some design guidelines to consider:

• The food bonus can't be too great to the point it becomes both a chore and a meta to maintain
• The food bonus can't be too little to the point it becomes pointless
• The food bonus has to be just right, and mainly a boon to PvE and/or QoL, so that players feel rewarded in taking the extra effort to fill the food meter, but can opt out without it being detrimental to their experience.
• The system has to be simple and easy enough for players to keep track and plan ahead if they choose to

How does this tie in to Herbalism? Well, it's the default "cooking" trade; it's the perfect trade to get this optional buff.

A Food Meter Overhaul:

1. No malus if characters continue to eat from Travel Provisions or NPC-purchased food
2. Introduce new Fresh Food crafted items via Herbalism from fish, meat, vegetables, and herbs
   i. Fresh Foods have an expiration timer from the time it is prepared (In craft template form); when the timer runs out, it becomes the usual Travel Provision/Food (both template and crafted item)
   ii. Existing food recipes that are not salted meat or travel provisions, such as Meat Pie, are all converted to "Fresh Foods"
   iii. The higher the Chef's Herbalism ranks, the longer the freshness duration (30min / rank)
3. When the character eats a food item, it fills a slot in the array of 100 with a number
   i. Regular Food fills one slot with 0
   ii. Fresh Food fills one slot with 1
   iii. The slots get continuously filled until it is full, and then the 101st (and so on) food item consumed will replace the 1st slot
   This is to simulate the "average" amount of fresh food your character has eaten throughout the last 100 meals.
4. Confer a soft bonus based on the average of the 100 (all stack, TBD)
   i. >= 20 gets +5 to Crafting Points (sends a message that says "You feel sharp.")
   ii. >= 35 gets +3 round duration to Sprint (sends a message that says "You feel healthy.")
   iii. >= 50 gets Maximized sprint speed (sends a message that says "You feel in shape.")
   iv. >= 80 gets +20 bonus Adventure XP to the tick (sends a message that says "You feel amazing.")

Existing characters start with all 0s.

It also reflects how one's real-life consistent diet affects one's health!

This way, it promotes Chef RP, buffs Herbalism in the process, puts all the Fish and Meat ingredients to good use, and also subconsciously nudges players to make a healthier diet decision.

Pam wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 10:01 pm

I'm not sure if you're saying that I could sell them for lots of money in a player shop, or repeating the idea that I can dump them on NPCs. In the case of player shops, I think it sounds boring to only be able to sell one kind of potion to other people. In the case of selling things to NPCs, that sounds extremely boring and lonely.

No, I don't mean selling them to a npc. There are several ways you can do it. I mentioned the player owned shop and what I did with it in the quote you had in your first post, but I started just by selling them to Khorin. 1500 each I think, I could make 50 on a slow week without doing stuff that I wouldn't normally be doing, or I could jam it out and make 100+. If I really wanted to go crazy, I could put up a sign saying "Buying kings crown for 500 each" on a temp shop and I would still make 1000 per potion and probably be able to jam out 300 a week at that rate. And since Khor is not around, I would just slap them in a temporary shop in cordor and go do whatever. When I get back in an hour two, they will be gone.

Now, there will be diminishing returns if 20 people read that and all do it at the same time, but while there are herbalist boons most that want to focus on the crafting aspect of merchanting get bored rather fast because of how little actually sells in stores. So, it's pretty steady with the occasional ebb and flow on how fast they sell.

Now, you keep mentioning lonely, but I don't get how that equates to what I am saying. Having your own buffs tends to be a good thing anyways even in group play if you are a melee, and crafting tends to be a lonely thing no matter what you do. If you want to press for merchant rp, that's on you to go find it and if that's what it's all about you can really do whatever you want, herbalism potions included. The op was more centered on how herbalism does in player run shops though, which unless you stand there all day doesn't really involve roleplay at all.

Kenji wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:10 pm

1. Confer a soft bonus based on the average of the 100 (all stack, TBD)
   i. >= 20 gets +1 to Int (Shows message: You feel sharp)
   ii. >= 35 gets +1 to Str or Dex, whichever base is lower, defaults to STR if the same (Shows message: You feel strong and sharp)
   iii. >= 50 gets +1 to Con (Shows message: You feel healthy, strong, and sharp)
   iv. >= 80 gets +1 to all saves (Shows message: You feel amazing!)

I get the idea behind it, but, sorry, it's full of "running your WoW dailies" vibes. People are going to feel it's necessary to get that +1 to INT and others will redesign their equipment around those Str/con bonuses. I don't really think that's what you're going for.

Honestly, after playing several dedicated herbalists, I'd rather potion amounts just get boosted and have a possibility to make bulk of them and foods.

Several people pointed out the frustration of trying to be an herbalist and run a shop.

You are constantly materials hunting. Coal, coal, and more coal. Easy, but constant.

More difficult (time consuming) to gather: king's crown, obsidian

No one even mentioned the sheer about of gem dust required. More gathering, then literal grinding.

RP wise, herbalism has some great stuff with the foods.

But herbalists also make crafting components for other crafters: flasks of oil, dragon oil, tanning acids, seed balm, etc...

So to run a shop, you have to have something else to sell. And the potions are the big item, but gathering and CP wise... it is miserable.

Once the boost from Brew Potion disappeared, nothing replaced it. Crafted Barkskin is no better than the Barkskin from NPCs so no one wants to pay for it. But they DO want you to stock it.

PLEASE revisit some of the recipes for Potions and either

• boost the output
• raise the effects (Crafted Barkskin should be more powerful than NPC barkskin?)
• add some new recipes for more potions

As for the Fresh Drinks, I have tried to get multiple dungeon parties to pause long enough for me to brew them a fresh drink. NO TAKERS. So while I applaud the efforts of the devs injecting some RP into herbalism, I have had very little success actually getting any actual RP with it.

When you run a herbalist shop you need to decide the prices of your goods based on how you value them, not how the average player values them. When I was running a herbalist shop, I was relatively more expensive than the average in Andunour at the time, but when other shops got dry people would have no choice but to pay me slightly higher prices. This made sure that I dont burnout from collecting material all day, and over time other herbalists increased their prices to match mine because they saw that my stuff still sells. Over all tho it is important to remember that not all trades are equal and that Herbalism will almost always have lower profits:investment ratio compared to other trades and for that to be a bad thing, one would need to first prove that other aspects of herbalism arent enough to make up for the difference, which is a tall order. Just food for thought.