Potential Suggestion on Sailing looking for player feedback

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So, I was reading a conversation about sailing on discord in the build discussion, with folks saying it would be neat to have sail based on experience sailing (I assumed similar to darts), with others stating that's probably too much of an investment. I can see both sides, and in a world where its one or the other I would definitely land with the later, but then I thought about hidden persona/secret identity and came up with a wild idea.

Here's the basics of it

-All sail scores via ranks and buffs cap at 70.

-An additional 30 hidden ranks (like persona/secret identity) can be achieved over time.

-triggers as long as you have ten ranks in sail off the heartbeat script, and the speed is determined by a few factors
: ship size matters, going off required crew size. So, a one-man ship would go the slowest, a 3 man would go faster, up the
ladder.
: You can take a feat (or two) to also speed it up if you want (a bit finicky of an idea since folks can take it and relevel when they
no longer need it, but maybe removing it strips the added ranks?)

What I believe this will accomplish

-It will make it so eventually all classes can hit max sail, without the need of certain classes (I'm looking at you bard) to get there. Bard would still be useful in getting to the 70, but not necessary for the hard-core sailors.

-It gives people a choice between taking feats or heavily relying on the current buffs, which opens it up to a lot more builds (assuming they can fit the 33 ranks) and makes it so dedicated sailors are not still gear swapping all the time assuming they take the feats (33 +15 +wisdom bonus means at 8 base wisdom with a owls potion you only need to find 21 points in gear, with bard song that becomes a lot less but it's still unnecessary)

-it makes sailing a skill that is passed down over time, not how fast you level, since it makes sense for a new sailor to want to join a preexisting crew and get those extra points before heading out to start their own crew, something that may become more prevalent if the ship instancing thing is still a...well, thing. It's been a minute since we heard anything about it lol.

---

So, I think that's the gist of it, with the only thing left to sort out being how to deal with the current sailors on the transfer over. I have a few ideas regarding that as well, but it seems pointless to bring them up if everyone's going to hate the core idea to begin with

I also have no idea if any part of the suggestion is literally impossible to accomplish, so there's that too.

[-XXX-]

I really don't like any of it. It all seems to me like a convoluted scheme aimed to dodge any build tradeoffs.

Firstly, unlike other highly specialized builds like quarterbreakers or commoners, any character build CAN be adapted for the 100 sail threshold - the tradeoff may vary but the worst case scenario is a two feat investment here.

Secondly, the 70 sail number seems arbitrary.*
To put things into perspective, if we pit a 100 sail crew against a 70 sail crew on identical ships both cruising at full sails, the 70 sail crew needs to roll 14+ to hit even if they are using +5 ammo while the 100 sail crew hits on 4+. Furthermore the 70 sail crew has a 20/x3 crit range while the 100 sail crew has 14-20/x3 crit range. Saying that the odds for the 70 sail crew are not very good would have been an understatement.

Now what's being proposed here is that instead of giving everybody a fair opportunity to build their character for 100 sail and jump in on any sailing action right away, they'd be first forced egngage in some race for who "charges" their sail score first so that they could go dunk on those who lag behind.

While I have my own reservations with regards to the sail skill**, the notion of being strangled at 70 sail regardless of build/gear/buffs while getting repeatedly blown out of the water by somebody who happens to have the luxury of solosailing a flagship during down hours is something that I find entirely unappealing.

---

*I'd really like to know the reasoning for picking this particular number
**how it keys off WIS - IMO it gives an edge to WIS builds and would much rather see it key of some more genral stat like CON

[PowerWord Rage]

I really don't like any of it. It all seems to me like a convoluted scheme aimed to dodge any build tradeoffs.

Firstly, unlike other highly specialized builds like quarterbreakers or commoners, any character build CAN be adapted for the 100 sail threshold - the tradeoff may vary but the worst case scenario is a two feat investment here.

Secondly, the 70 sail number seems arbitrary.*
To put things into perspective, if we pit a 100 sail crew against a 70 sail crew on identical ships both cruising at full sails, the 70 sail crew needs to roll 14+ to hit on d20 even if they are using +5 ammo while the 100 sail crew hits on 4+.
Furthermore the 70 sail crew has a 20/x3 crit range while the 100 sail crew has 14-20/x3 crit range.
Saying that the odds for the 70 sail crew are not very good would have been an understatement.

Now what's being proposed here is that instead of giving everybody a fair opportunity to build their character for 100 sail and jump in on any sailing action right away, they'd be first forced egngage in some race of who "charges" their sail score first so that they could go dunk on those who lag behind.

While I have my own reservations with regards to the sail skill**, the notion of being strangled at 70 sail regardless of build/gear/buffs while getting repeatedly blown out of the water by somebody who happens to have the luxury of solosailing a flagship during down hours is something that I find entirely unappealing.

---

*I'd really like to know the reasoning for picking this particular number
**how it keys off WIS - IMO it gives an edge to WIS builds and would much rather see it key of some more genral stat like CON

This is very accurate.
Honestly, this change will cripple any RP of any upstart crew or those who are keen to do so themselves.
It's really not possible for anyone to invest like 3 months or so worth of IG time ( akin to work ) so that they can become 100 sail to reasonably become a Captain of sort.
Let's be honest here that, you really need high sail score to make RP right for sailing.
If this goes effective, Sencliff will be dead in no time. ( maybe i'm exagerrating but the impact on Sencliff is more than other settlements since, those who make characters there, are almost 80% into sailing )

[AstralUniverse]

Not sure what this proposed change is supposed to do other than greatly reducing the value of bards on a boat (which is fine to a degree), reducing the need for gear (which is also fine to a degree), and also (since there's a cap of 70) greatly nulify the need to sacrifice any combat prowess for sailing prowess via feat investment (which is not fine).

We would also, when implementing something like this, need to cut down on sail 'exp' income based on average party sailing 'level', in the same way that I cannot be carried by a lvl 30 character through lvl 10 dungeons without getting 1 exp per mob, otherwise we would incentivize 'win-trading' or 'babysitting' mentality on an ooc level, which is awful and players with less ooc connections would be hurt by this the most, so this has to be taken into account as well and it complicates the implementation.

Unrelated to the thread, I do agree with XXX that sail being based on wisdom seems completely random and that it should be based on something more universal like CON. Truth is that for as long as all these different things you do on a boat are unified under one skill, there will never be a "correct" stat to base that skill on. Navigation ideally relayed on int, while physical stuff would relay on physical stats, but that's not the case so it might as well be CON or no skill at all.

[PowerWord Rage]

Not sure what this proposed change is supposed to do other than greatly reducing the value of bards on a boat (which is fine to a degree), reducing the need for gear (which is also fine to a degree), and also (since there's a cap of 70) greatly nulify the need to sacrifice any combat prowess for sailing prowess via feat investment (which is not fine).

I like this analysis and sentence. Just, can't help myself responding after reading that.

Honestly, this proposed change is simply to use 'time' as an investment which may sound very logical but it is actually a terrible idea.
I still very much believe that if you are going to play an active sailor, having the sacrifice something to become one, actually gives a sort of accomplishment really, even if varies across different players.

And, i wouldn't want someone who obtain 100 sails just because they like to afk on a ship 24/7, similar to language learning.
I wouldn't want to go on how language learning is...really a pain.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Just to clarify a few things that seemed to be misunderstood based on the feedback, my intention with this was not to make it easy for every build to have access to sail or to totally obliterate bards. 33 skill points is still a lot to many, and that's still 37 from the target without feats assuming a flat wisdom. What I was trying to do was make it so that any build that wants to put in the work can be as good as any other build, an idea I actually thought would be popular.

And I get the math you laid out XXX, but that's by design. I got the sense that you are a captain of one of the flag ships on the cliff when I was last playing over a month ago now and have been at it for a while. Doesn't it make sense that you have a head start over the group that gathered on discord, leveled to 30 in a week and a half, and now have all the pieces to be as good as you?

And finally, I don't think it would take months. I've been sailing recently, and I know how long you guys are out on any given day lol. I didn't add an actual time to it because it didn't make sense to try and get it exactly right at this point of the idea, but in my head, I saw it something like 30 hours on a flagship, 40 hours on the sea leopard (to use an example of a three man) and 60 hours on a solo ship. Thats not months lol.

I also thought a way to bring back some apprenticing roleplay would be welcomed, we all level so fast now that part of the game is all but gone.

[AstralUniverse]

I guess I'm not strongly against having achiavble sail benchmarks more uniform across different classes if it isnt uniform enough currently - but they should all still sacrifice skills points and feats to be the absolute best. As long as this bit is preserved, we can explore the over all options we could have for improvemts of the system (such as bards being less mandatory, or gearing being less effective than hard ranks? as long as the value of the feats and hard ranks not ever diminishing, soft ranks can indeed have more diminishing returns the higher you go for example)

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i hate gear swapping for sailing and i want it to go away, is my major opinion about sailing. if everyone can access the +2 gear anyway then why does it even need to be necessary?

[AstralUniverse]

i hate gear swapping for sailing and i want it to go away, is my major opinion about sailing. if everyone can access the +2 gear anyway then why does it even need to be necessary?

First I'm with you on gearswapping hate except when it's in-combat swapping, which is not the case for sailing.

Secondly, I believe the symetry breaks when you also introduce loot items with +5 sail into the mix. Then suddenly we dont all have the same gear +2 * 11 items

[patrykus93]

I think a lot of problems could be fixed it system was left as it is but sail skill would be used from the highest of wisdom or int. Almost every single character has some int investment so that would boost everyone.

As for gear. I never gear swap between boarding, my sailing gear is more or less combat ready because swapping is ANNOYING. I think combat-wise, it would be cool if armoured versions of captain gear were added (light,med,hvy armor) so strenght based chars would not suffer.

[-XXX-]

And I get the math you laid out XXX, but that's by design. I got the sense that you are a captain of one of the flag ships on the cliff when I was last playing over a month ago now and have been at it for a while. Doesn't it make sense that you have a head start over the group that gathered on discord, leveled to 30 in a week and a half, and now have all the pieces to be as good as you?

No and I wouldn't want to have an advantage over other players just because I've been doing something for a while because:

• it'd make other players less inclined to engage with me or the sailing system as a whole
• it'd be simply unfair

I do not like the idea, because:

• in its first step it proposes putting constraints on highly specialized builds that'd ensure they do not ouperform unspecialized ones - might as well remove the sail skill entirely at that point
• in its second step it seeks to reward playtime using an alternative method, effectively REPLACING playtime invested in this - getting to 100 sail still requires leveling up a character and taking specialized feats, which also takes time

As for gear. I never gear swap between boarding, my sailing gear is more or less combat ready because swapping is ANNOYING. I think combat-wise, it would be cool if armoured versions of captain gear were added (light,med,hvy armor) so strenght based chars would not suffer.

This is a twofold problem depending on what archetype you're playe

• for spellcasters it's perfectly viable to sail around oufitted in a secondary PvE gear - they can generally get by without stuff like uni saves, discipline or spellcraft which opens up property slots for sail, search and OL/DT. At the same time spellcasters are generally more punished for swapping gear loadouts as that often results in the loss of spell slots - so while I agree that staying in the sailing gear the entire time is a viable option, it is specific for spellcasters.
• mundane characters on the other hand do not perform that well if their gear isn't optimized for combat, so they need to swap gear loadouts which can be annoying - then again, it's generally a question of hitting one -loadout button.

[PowerWord Rage]

Honestly, this debate about changing how the skill, Sail, functions has been debated even last year? There is definitely a topic about that and etc etc.

Before making any changes to the skill, Sail. there will certainly be a need for comparison of Spot & Listen, Perform, Hide, Bluff etc etc and how or why Sail is needed for special mechanic changes and not the other listed above?
And why are there no suggestion that a player can become a Watch Guard long enough over a period of weeks, months or year? They gain hidden bonus to Spot & Listen to break all kind of disguises?

I'm not trying to muddle the field but more than anything, i hope for any kind of effort that can be done to sailing, to be adding more content or anything to make it much more fun.

I mean, having zero Sail does not lock you out of any content unless you're a 100% solo player which is terrible for sailing RP.
Rather than working on how the mechanic skill, Sail, interacts, it is better to add more content and fun things to sailing as a whole.
I would rather have the time and effort made creating content than making changes on these redundant things that probably need alot of effort for little gains.

I always think that we like to RP as a Sailor and play one, not because of mechanical restriction but rather, despite all mechanical disadvantages that we may suffer on taking the relevant feats, we /chose/ to be a Sailor.
Honestly, i totally disagree on all the discord things that is written here about how you need discord to arrange sail.
I'll just speak about myself and not represent other people, I can frankly say that I have never assemble any crewmates through discord only and relying on this OOC methods totally but IC, with message boards, with actual IG speaking In-Character.
The way that i see it, if you over-reliant on discord, it is very uncomfortable and destroy the sailing RP that has the foundation to accumulate to good story.

Okay above is a little off topic, but back to changes to Sail skills? I do think that it's in a good spot and will like to save the dev troubles, and possibly have more effort make into creating more content instead.
As a player that totally likes sailing and still do while also arranging sails, I chose to give up spot/listen/hide/bluff just to invest myself into being capable enough as a Sailor, even taking the relevant feats for it despite having to give up things like 'epic prowress / great dex / armor skin'
For myself, it's a proof to remind myself that i've given up something to focus on becoming a sailor PC, to become better at it and also actively find things to spice up the fun for sailing.

[AstralUniverse]

mundane characters on the other hand do not perform that well if their gear isn't optimized for combat, so they need to swap gear loadouts which can be annoying - then again, it's generally a question of hitting one -loadout button.

It is beyond annoying, it's extremely tedious in my experience. Whenever one of the items you are swapping to isnt in it's inv slot where it was saved - it will not switch. Also, if one of the items you're wearing is supposed to go to an inv slot that is now currently occupied by something else, it will also not swap off that item. This results in needing to change some of the items manually and likely (if you dont remember the previous setup in regards to where items go in your inv) having to save the loadout again.

Now, if we ignore sailing for one second, this is all fine, because switching gear during combat at the heat of the situation (for example, a rogue wanting to swap from save heavy set to skill heavy set) it should require player skill and fuckups will cost you time during combat rather than just inconvenience, so it has meaning. But in sailing, you are not in combat, and you're not pressed to swap the gear fast, so it's nothing other than an inconvenience. And it is greatly inconvenient. I dislike it a lot, personally. I'd personally prefer if basins had no sail bonuses in them, if it didnt make other soft bonuses like bard even more mandatory.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

• it'd make other players less inclined to engage with me or the sailing system as a whole

I really don't see this as being a issue, and I think you missed the point of this idea lol. Trust me, I don't want to gatekeep sailing, I think it's great for everyone if more people are involved with it. I think the core of the idea helps open that up. Adding time is just to incentivize people joining the already existing crews first, before heading out on their own. It makes the whole system more personal as your crew blossoms out on their own eventually, at least in my mind, and even if a new group doesn't want to do that seventy sail is more than enough for the majority of the content, and as long as they are into it, they will be at 100 after a few weeks (at most). A lone wolf might take closer to a month, assuming he's not on 7 hours a day.

Now, the numbers probably aren't perfect, I saw the conversation and started this thread less than two hours later lol. If I felt I could have explained it without numbers at all, I definitely would have gone that route. But what it really comes down to is that people have been saying the current system is too slanted toward needing bards (and to a lesser degree, gear swapping) since the sail content first began spreading. I'm actually 99% certain if I did a search, I could find you complaining about it too. Of course, opinions are allowed to evolve over time, mine certainly do on the regular. But the only real way to move away from the bard and wisdom dominated sail meta is to reimagine the system. My idea doesn't reinvent the wheel, instead building on what exists already, but I -think- it covers all the main sticking points.

[-XXX-]

It is beyond annoying, it's extremely tedious in my experience.

I wasn't trying to downplay how annoying this can be. My point was that being able to sail in a secondary PvE gear the entire time was more a perk of spellcasters and that mundies at least have -loadout now to alleviate their woes (because I have experienced the sailing system before -loadout was a thing and the difference between this and swapping every piece of gear manually is night and day).

However, gear swapping is not an issue that's exclusive to sailing - just to give an example let's look at OT/DL.

Furthermore, the proposal doesn't really address gear swapping nor does it deal with the prominence of Bards, simply because:
33 [sail ranks] + 22 [gear soft skill] + 15 [sea shanties] = 70
So all it really does in practice is giving a free license for attaining max sail while skipping the SF/ESF:sail bit

I'm actually 99% certain if I did a search, I could find you complaining about it too.

Let's change it to 100% because I expressed my frustration with bards in the sailing system before and still do, mostly because the bigger the ship the more it depends on the bard and the more likely is the sail to end when the bard's player needs to log off.
That being said, I do not believe that your proposal addresses this issue at all - I explained why and how in my reply above.

I think the solution to the bard problem is much more straightforward:
Exhibit A generic sail build:
53 hard sail = 33 [ranks] +10 [ESF:Sail] +5 [SF:Sail] +5 [WIS]
22 soft sail = 22 [gear skill bonus]
= 75

That leaves us with 25 soft ranks floating that we can currently assemble by any combination of soft skill buffs available, but:
The most prominent here are sea shanties [+15] and boon [+12] & the most straightforward way of getting a crew sail score 100 is by applying just these two.

What I'd propose as a solution would be introducing a third mass source of at least +13 soft sail bonus (could be a spell/ability/craftable consumable akin to mass camouflage or a similar that'd apply to the entire crew). So we'd have:

Sea shanty [+15]
Boon [+12]
New buff [+13]
^ combine any two of them to get at least +25 soft buff for the entire crew (even without sea shanties). Then add a script that'd make the third buff fizzle if the other two are present for balance reasons (example)

[AstralUniverse]

It is beyond annoying, it's extremely tedious in my experience.

I wasn't trying to downplay how annoying this can be. My point was that being able to sail in a secondary PvE gear the entire time was more a perk of spellcasters and that mundies at least have -loadout now to alleviate their woes (because I have experienced the sailing system before -loadout was a thing and the difference between this and swapping every piece of gear manually is night and day).

However, gear swapping is not an issue that's exclusive to sailing - just to give an example let's look at OT/DL.

Furthermore, the proposal doesn't really address gear swapping nor does it deal with the prominence of Bards, simply because:
33 [sail ranks] + 22 [gear soft skill] + 15 [sea shanties] = 70
So all it really does in practice is giving a free license for attaining max sail while skipping the SF/ESF:sail bit

That's fair, and I do not support any change that leaves gear dependancy as is while also leaving bard dependancy as is. But hypothetically, if we lowered all sail benchmarks/caps/whatever by exactly 22 (what you get from gear) while also removing sail the basin, then we'd be going somewhere different. It's still imperfect for other reasons (grandfathered items for example) but I just hate gear swapping when it is not action-economy related (aka in combat, where it costs you time and can screw you over when done wrong) because it doesnt add much other than inconvenience. For locks/traps it isnt quite the same because some people cant get any ranks in those at all, but for sail which is more uniform, we could just remove gear (and the need for gear's stats in the over all sail calculations).

[-XXX-]

But hypothetically, if we lowered all sail benchmarks/caps/whatever by exactly 22 (what you get from gear) while also removing sail the basin, then we'd be going somewhere different.

OK, that opens another can of worms, because:

Exhibit A: 30 Ftr
53 hard sail = 33 [ranks] +10 [ESF:Sail] +5 [SF:Sail] +5 [WIS]

Exhibit B: Cl25/LM5
74 hard sail = 33 [ranks] +10 [ESF:Sail] +5 [SF:Sail] +14 [WIS] +6 [explo secret] +3 [domain] +3 [domain]

While I can see this getting addressed by lowering the crew sail cap, to what value? Also

• the diminishing returns from exceeding the crew sail cap that deep sail builds get ATM would no longer be all that diminishing
  and
• sea shanties would have become MUCH more powerful without the soft skill cap keeping it in check.

I could see gear dependancy getting addressed as follows

• remove all soft sail skill bonuses from basin, gear, loot drops etc.
• pick ONE gear slot (say cloak) & make a craftable cloak with +22 sail bonus (not sure if this is possible and what skill bonus values the engine allows as item properties TBH)
• ideally change the sail skill from WIS to CON, because only a small fraction of all builds gears for WIS but pretty much all of them gear CON
  ^ that'd change swapping an entire loadout to swapping a single cloak

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Furthermore, the proposal doesn't really address gear swapping nor does it deal with the prominence of Bards, simply because:
33 [sail ranks] + 22 [gear soft skill] + 15 [sea shanties] = 70
So all it really does in practice is giving a free license for attaining max sail while skipping the SF/ESF:sail bit

---

Sea shanty [+15]
Boon [+12]
New buff [+13]
^ combine any two of them to get at least +25 soft buff for the entire crew (even without sea shanties). Then add a script that'd make the third buff fizzle if the other two are present for balance reasons (example)

I wanted to respond to both of these, but was lazy and kept them in the same quote, hope you don't mind

On the top half, I think you left some stuff out. To me, the way I proposed gives options on how to get there.

So a 33 rank weaponsmaster named johnny who didn't want to expend feats from his martial prowess does need a bard and does need gear. That option is still available; bards are still useful.

But a 33 rank weaponsmaster named billy who made room for sail feats and gift of sail (shame on you billy, you really wanted spot) has 54, can boost it with even just an owls potion to 55, and you only need a few pieces of gear that you can probably make in a way you can run with the entire time you are out, no swapping, or a bard. Or a boon.

Now, you might say it's unfair that johnny has to put in more work than billy, but the truth is that under the current system johnny's 33 sail ranks are pointless. Thats what I mean by opening up more options.

On the bottom half, I can see why another bardsong/boon thing sounds easy. It's come up before. But here's the rub, you are either creating yet another class that has an edge on sailing, or you are giving it to everyone making the bard song and the boons useless. Having them stack is not the worst idea when it comes to addressing loot swapping, but thats just inflating the base sail score of everyone instead of lowering the sail score, which seems like work for no gain.

Do tell me if you think I am not getting something about the points you are making.

[AstralUniverse]

While I can see this getting addressed by lowering the crew sail cap, to what value?

idk but ideally whatever value leaves the system as is but without considering the gear bonuses.

• the diminishing returns from exceeding the crew sail cap that deep sail builds get ATM would no longer be all that diminishing
  and
• sea shanties would have become MUCH more powerful without the soft skill cap keeping it in check.

100% agreed and I did address the issue with outliers in my post. You're right. It's a half baked solution that doesnt sit very well as is, but the point is that with a bit of fine tuning and addressing outliers like bard song and other soft bonuses which are bigger for some classes than others, we can be done with sail gear entirely and it would be great. Hells, what if we just slap 22 soft sail on everyone and then disable gear lol. Also yeah definitely CON instead of WIS. That would make a lot of sense. Over all my argument is mostly that if everyone get about (or exactly) the same bonuses from gear, why not just remove the gear, in some fashion that doesnt ruin the sail game.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Switching to con would just make the bard/evang/lm with 28 (base) con the new thing, and in the process end up leaving the wisdomcaster/lms and bard/evang/lms that currently exist miserable.

[AstralUniverse]

At least the difference between 28 base con and the 14-16 most builds have, is a lower gap than between 28 base wis and the 8 most builds have. And yes, it is true that basing it on con favors bard, because bard with edr is far from unheard of, but since bard is already the best sailor in the game, it probably wont make a huge difference over all for the bard.
I'm not gonna do the math rn but in principle, the bard who overkills the 100 sail cap in order to increase the party's average, wont be increasing the party's average as much if sail is based on CON and it might be by just enough that it doesnt matter much to the bard. The key function of this suggestion is not to screw bards or buff bards, but simply to shrink the gap between character with sail's stat as their prime attribute and those with 8 in that attribute currently.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

6-7 more sail is still 6-7 more sail, even if it's not as good as 10. People will still do it. And no edr for them, they will take evang and loremaster for another +12 at the cost of epic feats, and a ship bard needs epic focus sail/perform and lasting inspriation. at best they can be edr 1.

what makes it worse in my mind at least, is that the evangabard is already pretty miserable to play anywhere but on the ship, but at least you can toss about scrolls and maybe even sneak in corner action instead of that edr 1 you don't really need. The fat evangabard has absolutely no business ever leaving the deck lol.

[-XXX-]

But a 33 rank weaponsmaster named billy who made room for sail feats and gift of sail (shame on you billy, you really wanted spot) has 54, can boost it with even just an owls potion to 55, and you only need a few pieces of gear that you can probably make in a way you can run with the entire time you are out, no swapping, or a bard. Or a boon.

OK, it's true that we could turn the numbers around and do something like this:
33 [sail ranks] + 10 [ESF] +5 [SF] + 15 [sea shanties] + 6 [gift] +1 [prayer] = 70
No gear swapping involved whatsoever! However, this pretty much relegates the SF/ESF to mere QoL perks. Even right now a lot of players are reluctant to take these feats while they still represent a tangible trade. How many of them do you think would then seriously consider reducing their character's combat performance only for the QoL of avoiding gear swapping? I do not believe that many players think that way.

Now, you might say it's unfair that johnny has to put in more work than billy, but the truth is that under the current system johnny's 33 sail ranks are pointless. Thats what I mean by opening up more options.

ATM 33 sail plays pretty much like 33 AC - it's not nothing during PvE but don't expect it to be relevant in PvP

On the bottom half, I can see why another bardsong/boon thing sounds easy. It's come up before. But here's the rub, you are either creating yet another class that has an edge on sailing, or you are giving it to everyone making the bard song and the boons useless. Having them stack is not the worst idea when it comes to addressing loot swapping, but thats just inflating the base sail score of everyone instead of lowering the sail score, which seems like work for no gain.

I see the solution as a modular one - you get three distinct buffs and only need to apply two of them. This doesn't nerf bard in any way, nor does make it obsolete - as a matter of fact it'd still likely remain the most convenient and economically viable option, but one that's no longer mandatory.
ATM we get only two big soft sail buffs and pretty much need to apply both of them - this does frequently make bard not only mandatory (especially on galleons and flagships), but hinges on them being present the entire time.

Over all my argument is mostly that if everyone get about (or exactly) the same bonuses from gear, why not just remove the gear, in some fashion that doesnt ruin the sail game.

But that's not entirely accurate - there's quite a few soft skill sources & not only from basin gear:

• 3 superior lootable gear items (the overall gear bonus actually goes up to +30 soft sail with those)
• water elementalist (+10 soft sail)
• sailing gift (+6 soft sail) - this one would become a no-brainer autopick without the +50 soft skill cap in play btw
• vigilante cause of freedom (up to +6 soft sail)
• earthkin defender banner (up to +3 soft sail)

• bard song: sea shanty (up to +15 soft sail)
• boon (up to +12 soft sail)
• good hope (+2 soft sail, or +4 if epic enchantment specialist)
• prayer (+1 soft sail)

^ the +50 soft skill cap keeps all of that in check.

[PowerWord Rage]

Honestly, all of these are almost the repeat of this topic viewtopic.php?t=45009
There's no meaning at all.
The name of the topic has may have changed but it's still trying to lower the requirement of sailing.

I really dislike such suggestion that simply looks to me as wasting valuable time to make redundant changes when such time can be used for other better things, such as introducing new content.

[Ruzuke]

I like this idea. I like logging on play and have fun. While a fun game I do not want to have to use spread sheets, search for epic lore, FOIG, to get the rare items, so me and my friends can battle imaginary pirates and tell a good story.

Lowering the time investment to get into sailing means more people can join in and just have fun.