Arelith

The recent reminder doesn’t help the setting so much as it reminds people how things should be usually. However, drow and other light sensitive races DO have many ways to circumvent these weaknesses both in our game and established at length in the setting.

What about considering other options? Maybe the light sensitivity penalties shouldn’t be negligent tiny numbers. What if light sensitivity could result in a blindness that isn’t restored by darkness or gr resto and lasts a matter of hours?

It seems like avenues of roleplay shouldn’t be cut off entirely, but could pretty easily be adjusted for a suitable middle ground.

Also, vampires should straight up explode. It’s crazy that any vampire would be out in the sun in the first place in almost any circumstances.

I think light sensitivity is fine. It could even be made more severe mechanically if the intention is to use it to passively police light sensitive races.

That said, the recent announcement is technically untrue and misleading where it comes to the setting.

Drow can adapt to bright light. It's mentioned in 3e races of faerun and the specifics are elaborated on in Drow of the Underdark 2e.

It's meant to take a decade of exposure, and it specifies that Drow lose all innate magical abilities if they are surface adapted. It's a feat a character can buy. There are plenty of drow in canon who grow up on the surface and never have sensitivity.

The spell Shadow Shroud is also a 3e spell used by light sensitive races to protect themselves from sunlight. There were more in 2e but I don't want to write an essay here.

On the other hand, Drow crafted equipment and clothes would unravel after prolonged exposure to sunlight if not returned to faerzress regularly. In 3e this was relaxed to special enhancements of drow magic to equipment failing in sunlight.

Ideally the Drow policy would reflect that while it's technically possible for them to adapt to sunlight, it's not something you can roleplay. You're playing a drow that hasn't adapted and wont feasibly adapt in the course of their play. I wouldn't be completely allergic to a feat or award allowing it, but I personally like the feeling of the night specifically being dangerous.

As for vampires, you get slowed and start dying pretty quick in the sun. It's not quite as punitive as canon which is one round of disorientation, and then instant and irrevocable death. But I presume a vampire who is caught in the sun as part of a story would closure. I don't mind there being some wiggle room for losing track of time or taking the portal after killing an aspect of paush and unexpectedly being outside.

Dreams wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2025 4:44 am

The recent reminder doesn’t help the setting so much as it reminds people how things should be usually. However, drow and other light sensitive races DO have many ways to circumvent these weaknesses both in our game and established at length in the setting.

What about considering other options? Maybe the light sensitivity penalties shouldn’t be negligent tiny numbers. What if light sensitivity could result in a blindness that isn’t restored by darkness or gr resto and lasts a matter of hours?

It seems like avenues of roleplay shouldn’t be cut off entirely, but could pretty easily be adjusted for a suitable middle ground.

Also, vampires should straight up explode. It’s crazy that any vampire would be out in the sun in the first place in almost any circumstances.

For Gloaming when I played mine this was the system. Being in darkness did not automatically remove the penalties. It caused a vulnerability for a number of hours equal to being in the sun. One issue with playing that race is they have a racial hatred of Drow, yet start where many Drow are. A shift to the Deep Gnome starting down and Brog would assist with playing characters.

Also, vampires should straight up explode. It’s crazy that any vampire would be out in the sun in the first place in almost any circumstances.

As far as I know we havn't had any issues with Vampires, but I think they were added into the announcement for completion purposes.

I wouldnt call 90% miss chance in melee and 30% spell failure, and losing SR26 negligible for drow. It effectively makes character incapable to defend themselves in the daylight so even if you stay in the sun it very much safe only in "friendly" or "neutral" enviroments of Cliff and Sibayad and then you have on top of that "Drow policy" that reminds you that you cant even stay there for prolonged periods of time.
If anything penalties should be less straining or maybe reach its "peak" at midday or maybe it should be a cumulative effect the more hours you spend on a surface. Because right now its 6:15 daytime you effectively banned from interacting most of the server for the next 4 hours.

Not to necessarily blame players, and perhaps the lore is inconsistent or something, but I've seen waaaaaaay too many gloamings just live as surfacers, claiming to BE surfacers, and ICly addmiting that sunlight is a b**** but they tolerate it and try to stay indoors during day. I find it to be ridiculous and if it isnt already the case, sunlight sensitivite should be a lot more inconvenient so people cant do... that. A light sensitive creature cannot functionally play as a surfacer without cheesing the setting pretty hard, right??

Ruzuke wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2025 1:59 pm

One issue with playing that race is they have a racial hatred of Drow, yet start where many Drow are.

I feel like this is a feature, not a bug. Just because you hate something doesn't mean you can't pretend to play nice while stabbing those ugly mofos in the back down the line when its most opportunistic for you. Thats like the plot of 80% or so of every good revenge story lol.

it'd be cool if the gloaming could be part of the grotto

there's no lore precedent for it but it'd make sense in this specific locality

As a noted gnome lover this always seemed odd to me too. And I’ve had other gnomes ICly defend it as if it was normal to hang out there (obviously some exceptions like vampires or tieflings)

Though, like some of those lore sunlight adaptations, I just assume this is more done for PW gamey reasons rather than strict adherence to lore. So I’ve just dropped that lore bit and never bring it up anymore.

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:56 am

Not to necessarily blame players, and perhaps the lore is inconsistent or something, but I've seen waaaaaaay too many gloamings just live as surfacers, claiming to BE surfacers, and ICly addmiting that sunlight is a b**** but they tolerate it and try to stay indoors during day. I find it to be ridiculous and if it isnt already the case, sunlight sensitivite should be a lot more inconvenient so people cant do... that. A light sensitive creature cannot functionally play as a surfacer without cheesing the setting pretty hard, right??

I'll weigh in here despite not playing for a while, if something has changed that'd invalidate my thoughts... that'd be good.

Both gloamings have ended up on the surface, functionally. For better or worse, a lot of my interactions in the UD went like this:

John Neverwinter: "Whoa, those wings are cool, what are you?"

Aequita Ocula: "I'm a Gloaming."

John: "I've heard of your people, you are enemies of the drow."

Aequita: *nods*

John: *Looks around at all the drow in the area*

It's really hard to be believable as a gloaming in this environment, and it subtly invalidates the drow RP a little as well. We had a pretty good run on the shadow plane as a group for a while, but when I've briefly played again, that seems to have fizzled, too.

It's also really hard to just point at "Andunor as a Drow City" and say that's the problem, because I really don't think it is. We've been told from on-high that it's a trade city, not a drow city, and to be honest, it really is that way sometimes. Naturally, there are influxes of different races over time and if there's a spike in one particular population, places can take a bit more of their vibe than usual, and that's fine. While I was playing these characters, drow and kobolds were flavour of the month, due to some excellent RPers and leaders in both camps.

The other thing I'll say is that the world is so vast and well-built that it's totally feasible to live a subsurface life on the "surface". I've tried really hard on both gloamings to respect sunlight sensitivity and I think I succeeded both times. You can get almost anywhere to almost anywhere with easy access to shadow gates and the combined surface / underdark cave networks. Playing this way felt much more natural to how a gloaming should be, with as little background as we get for them.

I do agree the "full surface gloaming" as described in the quote needs to get in the bin.

Anundor is supposed to be a cosmopolitan city with a sizeable population,and you don't have to look to far in real life to find examples of cities with groups of inhabitants that detest each other and who may occasionally flare in violence but usually live side by side with low-key animosity. Or there are marginalized and barely tolerated minorities that are useful and entrenched enough not to be forced out. I know D&D isn't real life, but I don't see why deep gnomes or even gloamings in Anundor is that strange, and there's certainly NPC support for both (especially gnomes who have useful tinkers and shipbuilders). That doesn't mean your drow PC has to befriend them or can't be enemies IC as long as you don't make the hostility so extreme they feel bullied out of playing their character.

MRFTW wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 6:14 pm

Code: Select all

John Neverwinter: "Whoa, those wings are cool, what are you?"

Aequita Ocula: "I'm a Gloaming."

John: "I've heard of your people, you are enemies of the drow."

Aequita: *nods*

John: *Looks around at all the drow in the area*

It's really hard to be believable as a gloaming in this environment, and it subtly invalidates the drow RP a little as well. We had a pretty good run on the shadow plane as a group for a while, but when I've briefly played again, that seems to have fizzled, too.

It's also really hard to just point at "Andunor as a Drow City" and say that's the problem, because I really don't think it is. We've been told from on-high that it's a trade city, not a drow city, and to be honest, it really is that way sometimes. Naturally, there are influxes of different races over time and if there's a spike in one particular population, places can take a bit more of their vibe than usual, and that's fine. While I was playing these characters, drow and kobolds were flavour of the month, due to some excellent RPers and leaders in both camps.

The other thing I'll say is that the world is so vast and well-built that it's totally feasible to live a subsurface life on the "surface". I've tried really hard on both gloamings to respect sunlight sensitivity and I think I succeeded both times. You can get almost anywhere to almost anywhere with easy access to shadow gates and the combined surface / underdark cave networks. Playing this way felt much more natural to how a gloaming should be, with as little background as we get for them.

I do agree the "full surface gloaming" as described in the quote needs to get in the bin.

I didnt even know gloamings' rivalry with the drow. I just thought that it would make sense for the drow to trade exotic creatures into slavery and gloamings really stand out. Ironically, my gloaming was a devil's table treasurer, working for the temple of lolth. I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss? If it were my character in the conversation it would go more like "you heard... what? Keep ye damn voice down, fool. I need no such rumors flyin' aroun'."

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 6:38 am

Ruzuke wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2025 1:59 pm

One issue with playing that race is they have a racial hatred of Drow, yet start where many Drow are.

I feel like this is a feature, not a bug. Just because you hate something doesn't mean you can't pretend to play nice while stabbing those ugly mofos in the back down the line when its most opportunistic for you. Thats like the plot of 80% or so of every good revenge story lol.

The same could be said of Drow living in Myon, however it still would not be realistic. Why do Drow have the ability to use darkness? According to the Forgotten Realms book it is because they tortured the Gloaming enough to learn how to cast it.

Thus, the Myon and Drow living together in racial hatred being a good comparison. They really should be in Brog or some expanded part of the Under Dark. Living next to your sworn enemy as a race is not a case of I don't like Bob let me plot against him. It to the extent of Orcs and elves marrying and raising children together. Not going to happen the two races fundamentally despise one another. It is not a feature it is not lore, it is just where there is the most room to put them.

Shouldn't literally choosing to play a gloaming come with the downside of it as well?

Roleplaying trying to form a community outside of Andunor and finding a safe space for it? I don't see the problem honestly.

Picking an award race shouldn't be just playing a cool-looking character but also roleplaying the hardships the race has to go through.

I don't think there's any canon source that touches on the interaction between svirfneblin and gloaming. On Arelith though, I've often found my svirfneblin characters making fast friends with gloamings. They have a few major details in common: a history of being tormented by drow, valuing freedom, and along with Deep Imaskari, being the only playable races in the UD that don't lean strongly evil. They're fun for svirfneblin to connect with, confide in, and develop alongside.

Often, a gloaming and svirfneblin will follow similar courses in Andunor, assuming they're played as a fairly typical member of their respective race. They'll inevitably fail to fit in with, or violently clash, with Andunor. It's a city with many drow and many slaves. Yes I know it's a 'trade' city not a 'drow' city, but drow NPCs are everywhere in Andunor and drow houses are the entrenched masters of two city districts. Even putting aside the fact that they're one of the most popular races on the server, the setting suggests they're a major force in Andunor.

The svirfneblin character can easily move on from this, given the existence of the Grotto, the lack of magical sunlight sensitivity, and the fact that they're generally welcome these days in surface settlements. A svirfneblin can still roleplay in the Underdark in relatively cloistered locations under Brogendenstein's protection. These days svirfneblin can start in the Grotto anyway and thus avoid the awkwardness of living with the three races who make a habit of hunting them down, torturing them, enslaving them.

A gloaming can't really do that. Outside of maybe the Ogre Trade Post, there's not an avenue for non-svirf Underdark characters to comfortably exist in opposition to Andunor. So good/neutral gloaming generally wind up on the surface, despite the vulnerability. I don't personally see a problem with this if they're respecting the vulnerability and not running around at day. It makes sense to me that a non-evil gloaming would rather be forced stay indoors for about 7-12 hours than live in a city of drow and slavers. I don't find it disrespectful of the setting or unrealistic. Many gloaming would probably see it as an overall much better life.

My Grotto-based svirfneblin has encouraged trusted gloaming to settle in Brogendenstein before, but it's always a bit of a lukewarm offer when they wouldn't actually be able to open the elevator to the Underdark on their own. Arelith svirfneblin have lived in harmony with the earthkin for I think about a century now and allowed them freely in their homes. I don't think extending the same to gloaming (maybe with the restriction that they be Brogendenstein citizens) would be outlandish and would fit quite well with server lore.

Overall I understand the plight of the 'surface' gloaming as they're not an especially fitting race for Andunor. I've had largely positive interactions with gloaming characters. Many become reliable allies against evil forces in the Underdark and my svirfneblin character in the government would cheerily write them Grotto passes if such a mechanic existed.

Ruzuke wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:47 am

The same could be said of Drow living in Myon, however it still would not be realistic.

I mean, none of it is realistic. But there are boundaries that the game sets. A drow living in myon is not within those boundaries, whereas a gloaming living in Anundor is. I don't want to tell you how to play your character, but if I played a gloaming, I would find a way to make it work while sticking to the lore as best as I can within the boundaries of the game.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:52 pm

Ruzuke wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:47 am

The same could be said of Drow living in Myon, however it still would not be realistic.

I mean, none of it is realistic. But there are boundaries that the game sets. A drow living in myon is not within those boundaries, whereas a gloaming living in Anundor is. I don't want to tell you how to play your character, but if I played a gloaming, I would find a way to make it work while sticking to the lore as best as I can within the boundaries of the game.

I agree, which is why I would likely go to Brog find a good balance there of the RP where could remain in the under dark. Then pull from your idea of how could I backstab some Drow. A Deep Gnome Settlement and Grey port being options as well.

tl;dr: I agree with everything you said.

Biggrouse wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:48 pm

Often, a gloaming and svirfneblin will follow similar courses in Andunor, assuming they're played as a fairly typical member of their respective race. They'll inevitably fail to fit in with, or violently clash, with Andunor. It's a city with many drow and many slaves. Yes I know it's a 'trade' city not a 'drow' city, but drow NPCs are everywhere in Andunor and drow houses are the entrenched masters of two city districts. Even putting aside the fact that they're one of the most popular races on the server, the setting suggests they're a major force in Andunor.

Regarding just gloaming, I completely disagree. I think this binary view doesnt catch a lot of complex culural traits in Andunour. Gloamings can very much succeed socially and if they're useful the Drow will likely treat them as kobolds or humans, from my experience anyway. Were there sacrifices? Sure were. Did my character backstab his own kin a couple of times when it was convenient? Sure did. But then again, maybe if your gloaming is good alignment it can indeed be pretty rough I'd imagine.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:30 pm

Regarding just gloaming, I completely disagree. I think this binary view doesnt catch a lot of complex culural traits in Andunour. Gloamings can very much succeed socially and if they're useful the Drow will likely treat them as kobolds or humans, from my experience anyway. Were there sacrifices? Sure were. Did my character backstab his own kin a couple of times when it was convenient? Sure did. But then again, maybe if your gloaming is good alignment it can indeed be pretty rough I'd imagine.

To be clear, I'm not saying that gloaming are condemned to never have good, long-term roleplay staying in Andunor. Gloaming characters can absolutely have great stories to tell in Andunor, and I'm not trying to discount any characters who have thrived there. One of the quirks of Andunor, of course, is that practically any character can potentially exist there if they're socially deft and evil enough: we've even seen elves and shield dwarves rise to prominence.

Those gloamings who thrive in Andunor are existing outside of the norm of their race: that's not a problem, but it shouldn't be the only option, in my opinion. It doesn't surprise me many wind up on the surface when the limited amount of lore on the race goes out of its way to say 'they really hate drow and they're almost never the prominent alignment of the region'.

It'd just be cool if gloamings had some support to help them exist in a space between 'I live peacefully alongside my racial enemies' and 'I am just a surfacer now'.

Biggrouse wrote: Wed Jun 18, 2025 1:06 am

.

Those gloamings who thrive in Andunor are existing outside of the norm of their race: that's not a problem, but it shouldn't be the only option, in my opinion. It doesn't surprise me many wind up on the surface when the limited amount of lore on the race goes out of its way to say 'they really hate drow and they're almost never the prominent alignment of the region'.

There are a lot of races that don't make sense for what the server is, but you are allowed to play because of options. Ogres, goblins, kobolds, gnolls, ect, these creatures usually live on the surface but are shoehorned into andunor because that's where the server has room for them. The shadovar in 1372 have just returned and are trying to entrench themselves in central faerun among powerful nations that are very dubious of them (and one nation that seems to do their bidding), not half a world away pretending to fit in with the humans as individuals engaging in some backwater island politics. We've probably had more fey'ri pcs then there are fey'ri in the world right now as they are just getting around to turning more sun elves into the twisted abominations they themselves are, with only a handful being released into the world in 1369 when hellgate keep was destroyed. We are probably coming close to the total population of avriel too in the world, as they are mostly extinct.

So yeah, if we want to lore lawyer this stuff, we would probably have to nix 3/4ths of the options on the award list, because the server isn't really built in a way that makes them exist as they would in the lore. Or, we can just make it work with what we have to work with when we decide to play these characters.

Personally, I don't care either way, never been a fan of the zoo personally so they could go away in a heartbeat lol. But I suspect I am in the extreme minority when it comes to that, so finding a way to make it work within what we have as a setting for arelith while sticking to the lore as close as possible seems like the best option for people who chose to play these races.

It would be very cool to see a minor expansion to Myon and its caves to add in a gloaming area, where they could live underground AWAY from the drow. Sort of a “enemy of my enemy is my friend” thing

Biggrouse wrote: Wed Jun 18, 2025 1:06 am

It'd just be cool if gloamings had some support to help them exist in a space between 'I live peacefully alongside my racial enemies' and 'I am just a surfacer now'.

Gloamings - leave their home plane seeking adventure, fame and fortune in the prime material plane, and starting where they are physically most fitting and closest to their native climate - is in my opinion all the support and foundation the race needs, because otherwise if they 'have no place' we might as well question whether or not it should be a playable race in Arelith at all. My advice would be to make lemonade. Gloaming lemonade is spicy.

Vampires should start taking 10d6 damage every second they are out in the sun, unmitigable damage.

Which rapidly ramps up.

Vampires are literally suppose to just straight up die in the Sun. Period.

The fact that this isn't the case on Arelith surprises and baffles me.

Then again, they also hard nerfed Turn Undead against Vampire PC's and Removed the Save or Die aspect of Sunburst for Vampire PCs, so it really shouldn't be that surprising that vampires PCs get special treatment even if it breaks canon lore.

Rei_Jin wrote: Wed Jun 18, 2025 4:15 am

It would be very cool to see a minor expansion to Myon and its caves to add in a gloaming area, where they could live underground AWAY from the drow. Sort of a “enemy of my enemy is my friend” thing

How many gloamings are playing at a given time though, I don’t think the population warrants a settlement nor should every niche have their own little village to retreat to, each and every one is going to be a ghost town.

There are still plenty of options if they avoid Anundor… The shadow plane is a bit underused, there’s Dis, they could just hang indoors for RP in some public place like the Nomad (or any tavern) or Arcane Tower.. or they can find a way to make it work in Anundor because it’s a city with a lot of creatures who aren’t drow. I’m pretty sure the thinking behind Anundor is to make these races who don’t get along have to interact with simmering antipathy.

There have been off and on literally hundreds of Kobold players, and Kobolds do not have their own area, despite advocating for it. (Especially for the purposes of getting away from the UD where canonically kobolds are not huge frequent residents of)

There have been significantly less gnome players and gnome players have their own grotto, which usually sits nearly completely abandoned.

Player Count is clearly not something taken into account when it comes to making areas for racial PC groups.