Hide in Plain sight needs a longer cooldown.

[kiljaedon]

if i see someone with a shadow dancer shadow i tend not to get into a conflict with them, since HIPS is like god mode at the moment.

I would not go that far. There are so many counters to hips its only true advantage is the temporary break in targeting if actions that might help break the momentum of a caster.

[Xarge VI]

Maybe it might be a good idea to increase the HiPS cooldown, but decrease the cooldown with SD levels so that it ends in 2 round cooldown on like 20th SD level.

It would both lessen the power of the dreaded SD dip and give more sense of progression for Shadowdancer class. From playing both an archer SD and a Shadowmage in the past I can tell the HiPS is a very powerful tool that should be in its full power behind many Shadowdancer levels.

[CptJonas]

Right, ahehem.

First of all, everyone has the same movement speed on Arelith if they are hasted. There's a cap and

And if everybody is not hasted, the speed is going to be different.

You're thinking from powergamer position where you spent 3 thousand hours hoarding items, developed perfect strategy that includes 46 different potions, magic items and super rare gear and are already levl 30 on your main and on all your alts.

cowboy, likewise, is complaining that it is hard to counter somebody who has figured out how to play their class properly and invested into it.

The thing is, it is supposed to work this way. Every class has a weakness, and if you are badly matched with a sneak, the sneak will wear you down, despite being weaker than your super PC. That's why you bring a rock to counter their scissors.

A damn WIZARD can often spot sneaks effortlessly, and somebody with wisdom based class can have spot/listen values in the vicinity of let see... about 71 without trying too hard and without buffs. Avoiding this kind of dude would require sneak to have 91 in hide/ms. So find that guy and put him into your party.

Have fun.

P.S. Meanwhile shadowdancer doesn't even get any sneak attack dice.

I aggree with some point here...but on same time...

Some of your words are reason why we cant balance game and make changes by words and opinions on forum ...

Like...not everybody is going to be hasted? Thats a powergaming?

Everybody...even moust green players...carry around wands for haste and imp invis...thats total basic...

Like you never want to start fight non hasted...thats close to sucide (only few builds can be realy efective without haste..)

Thats not powergaming...thats simply best QaL and probably moust used, moust loved, and quite powerfull, spell...

And any player who plays nwn for long enough spends like 90% of time hasted...when out of town of course....

Hell...its from my experience how every group PVP starts...with wizzard casting mass haste
Its nearly like shot from starting pistol

[Zavandar]

[Snip]

EDIT:
shower thought. Make hips have a 30 second cd at sd 5, 24 at 10, 18 at 15

I don't think going for 20 sd makes a good build but.. sure, 12 second cd at 20

Ranger hips and shadowmage hips should just be bumped to 18

[cowboy]

The obsession that I, as OP, has had to have lost PvP to HIPS or do not know how to counter it is irrelevant and off topic to my feedback. I haven't lost against it. I have played two HIPS characters and play a character technically vulnerable to them but have had no trouble dispatching people with them because of the user's inexperience or maybe bad luck on their end.

HIPS is busted and I won't be convinced otherwise in how its implemented; most classes who get it need adjusted for deeper investment and a cooldown. The "least people playing them" do not indicate its effectiveness. In the hands of a skilled individual they allow for some terrible and eldritch things that currently have no real counter. (thankfully most people in this thread don't know what they're doing.)

I will also discount and discard the statement about focusing on listen and using amplify - though it is its own discussion Amplify is a humiliation against stealth based characters. It needs to be nerfed as well; anyone who thinks with the abundance of listen gear on the server on pieces that are very strong, combined with the ability to stack +20 listen at turns per level is balanced might be eating a coconut, shell and all.

(Kalopsia isn't though because I know they actually know what they're talking about and I respect their opinion as it does not contain needless HIPS main aggression. They are at least visiting from their position with some science and their own experiences.)

please stop trying to equate my frustration with a busted mechanic with a loss or inexperience; for that is absolutely not the case.

also there still is the matter of what is effectively an exploit that you can do after leaving HIPS by breaking LOS and quickly revisiting stealth so you can let your timer come back down. You should not be able to cool down in stealth.

[Arigard]

You should not be able to cool down in stealth.

After leaving stealth mode, HIPS will have 2 rounds of cooldown before it can be used again. Note that other ways of sneaking, such as corner-sneaking, still work while the cooldown is in effect.

You say it like it's a bug. It's written right there on the wiki that you can still use corner-sneaking.

Heavy shadowdancers have very few bonuses to it as a class. It doesn't have high sneaks, unless it's tied to its shadow, which means micromanaging that in PvP. It has terrible will saves and not great fort. It's barely able to do anything against palemasters, summoned dragons, summoned elementals, summoned mummies, wizards/sorcs/spellswords that know what they are doing. Anything with DR is a struggle, especially Barbarians with their fear.

You have Warlocks running around with +15 darts touch attacking people, multiple pets with true seeing, completely crit immune/sneak immune classes/forms and then easy to get lore for true seeing & listen items that allow pretty much any character that dips into a class with listen to hit 70-80 on their skill. If you don't have listen on your build, or a way to counter stealth, then I don't know what to tell you... this isn't to make a point of "oh other classes are broken etc". This is to say, these things other classes have at their disposal are simple one tool they can use on top of a whole arsenal of other things. Shadowdancers have one gimick, that's it, they have nothing else to fall back on and that gimmick can be fairly easily neutralized by a large percentage of the player base.

They nerfed knockdown to 2 rounds, the same as HIPS, which is balanced enough. A warrior can still do massive dmg without knockdown, especially as most are weapon masters, or barbs. A shadowdancer can do absolutely nothing without HIPS, it's their bread and butter. It's their offense and defence. Rogues with heavy investment have grenades, shadowdancer with heavy investment get.....a shadow that can last slightly longer but still only hit you for 1 dmg? and a daze that you can use once every 3 minutes that rarely hits lvl 30 players.

[Complex]

I personally think it's fine that you can get HiPS with 5 levels of SD because it's reasonable investment and it allows people to actually get the feat if they want to do some memery while still having their build be 'alright', but 12 seconds is nothing and being able to get the cooldown off while stealthing is silly too.

It'd be nice to add 1 or 2 more rounds to the CD not because it can't be countered but because the expectations are just ridiculous. Stealthers are almost all designed to be able to afford spending 66 points (wizards, rogues, shadowdancers get all a ton of skillpoints per level), but detection skills are not always as free, and yes, 25 lore for a True Seeing scroll is not bad but... how many True Seeing scrolls is one meant to carry? How many True Seeing casts do I need to have if I couldn't afford detection?

I think that leaving HiPS on 5 SD but nerfing its cooldown would be a nice middle ground. Many classes that get HiPS (not rangers specifically) have some glaring weaknesses which is why I'd be careful with it, but HiPS itself is indeed busted.

EDIT: I get how some classes are meant to counter others, but HiPS manages to become unfun at times (on top of being strong).

[Nobs]

I would like Hips to be added to the rogue bonus feat list so they could take hips at level 10 or 13 , 16 and so on

[cowboy]

Again, people bringing up other busted classes (or these stupid +15 champion darts warlocks can use to subvert the entire meta) should go in their own threads. I am not against nerfing other things- just isn't the topic.

something else being busted doesn't justify another thing being busted

both should be fixed

(just talk about HIPS here)

[also stop saying SD have one gimmick they have an INT based class level DC to disable someone and can summon one of the most powerful summons in the game. rangers have animal companions and amazing long range damage if they choose. shadow mages can literally do everything a wizard can + disappear. these classes are not weak.]

[Zaphiel]

I just can't understand why everyone feels it is op when it is easy to counter. A lot of people wrote long facts about shadowdancer, ways to counter. Yet, he is still in denial. Like, really man, how their summon is in most powerful summon list. 5 level SD shadow is suck. If he talking about 18 level SD shadow, yeah, it is quite strong in PvE. In PvP? Doubt it. And for that powerful summon, you need high SD levels. Which means you will be suck at will save. Look, a way to counter.

About class level based disable ability. 15 + base INT Modifier + Class Levels. So for 18 level SD, 33 + int mod. So probably will net at 35dc. In 5 min cd. Thats all. And if you happen to fail that save, you can always -pray. What now? That heavily invested SD only have unreliable summon and HiPS. So that spell is not even reliable. For 5 level HiPS dip, not even worth for speak. 22dc. So only gimmick is HiPS.

And sorry mate but I am not afraid of HiPS' getting nerf. Is it annoying fighting against? It is. But it is not op at the same time. And you don't have to win every damn 1v1 fights.

[MissEvelyn]

A reasonable and constructive reply was already given by Archnon, but neither OP nor the HiPS complainers seem to have anything to say to it.

I am not a forum moderator, but I dare say this thread has long run its course and is delving far off the beaten path. That's not to say the original post was very constructive to begin with. No disrespected intended to cowboy, but the original post does read like more of a rant than an actual constructive feedback post, which is why people jumped to the conclusion that this was a result of a PVP loss with a Shadowdancer.

[Misericordus]

HiPS was disabled for close to a decade. Then it was re-enabled in an environment where 9-round true seeing was an option open to anyone who had some UMD.

Since then, for some reason, true seeing was cratered into what it is now: casting it buys off 1 HiPS cooldown cycle. If you take a full-round action to cast it from a scroll, you can't even act again before the TS component of the spell has worn off.

Due to the way the skill rolls work, in order to have a realistic chance to defeat HiPS with detection skills, you'd have to have enough to immediately win an opposed check.

The chance of this happening drops off to "functionally negligible" territory once the stealther has an advantage of more than a scant few points, and it is very easy for a dex-based class to have a higher hide than any non-wisdom-based class can counter immediately even if they are heavily, heavily invested in spot or listen.

The argument of "just buy spot to defeat HiPS" is deeply flawed. It isn't mathematically sound. It isn't even possible for most builds to accrue enough spot score to instantly defeat even a mediocre shadowdancer's hide skill. If you can't immediately spot them the instant they HiPS, then you are subject to the full mechanical consequences of them hitting the reset button on the engagement — which, most likely, is a flurry of nearly triple-digit-damage sneak attacks, probably with crippling strike attached, aimed right at your flatfooted AC. Even if you do immediately spot them, you then have to manually re-engage right away to un-flatfoot yourself, or you could still eat a flurry of sneak attacks anyway.

The ability to force a full flurry of sneak attacks onto a flatfooted opponent every 3rd round, for negligible cost or effort, is insanely strong — to say nothing of the utility in controlling the engagement in general.

[magistrasa]

I love HiPS but it honestly doesn't feel like it has a cooldown at all.

That being said - while I can see why people would be wary of rogue-heavy SD dips, any SD-centric build is really only good at 2 things: PvE & Survival. A typical SD-heavy build probably isn't winning any fights with or without HiPS, but HiPS can often be the difference between life and death.

I think the idea of having a high initial cooldown of around 4 rounds and decreasing it over the course of your SD levels is a fair compromise. Anyone who wants to go hard in SD takes a minimum of 10 levels - cooldown reduction to 3 rounds thereabouts is probably fine. Maybe 2 rounds at 15 levels. Don't give any reduction at SD 20 because we don't want to trick some poor fool into taking 20 levels in this class, God help them. I couldn't tell you what the best numbers are, but given that SD dips in already effective builds are the current boogeyman, if there was going to be any change, I imagine it'd best be something like that.

All that said, it is no small sacrifice for someone to take those 5 SD levels in the first place. Between requisite feats and an accommodating class spread, you're definitely losing out on some of the hard numbers - especially if you make the mistake of taking the class pre-epic. Not that I've done the math (it's 9am and I'm an art student ok don't make me math), but between two well-prepared combatants of a similar niche, I imagine the non-SD dip has better odds of winning in nearly every circumstance. I always sort of figured HiPS is just the equalizer to a relatively weak class that can't really do much on its own without the shadow. I say all this not to discount the effectiveness of HiPS, and more to emphasize the fact that acquiring the skill requires non-negligible sacrifices. HiPS doesn't exist in a vacuum; most people are sacrificing HP, feats, damage, skill points, saves, and whatever else they're gambling on this gimmick. Some builds can afford it, sure, but it does come at a cost all the same.

And yes, as has been pointed out, Arelith is a roleplay server that tends towards frenetic group combat. Odds are strong that you've got a friend next to you that can insta-counter that HiPS, whether it's by high detection, Trueseeing, or a well-placed Wail of the Banshee that's practically guaranteed to drop that sucker nigh instantaneously because God those saves are bad.

tl;dr: I have meditated on this matter for half a fortnight and in my infinite wisdom I have discovered that I have no strong feelings about this one way or another, whether there's a change or not I swear it'll be fine fam

[cowboy]

I think the thread has value and that people need stop:

accusing people of things irrelevant to the discussion (you only posted because you got beaten, GIT GUD, etc.)

bringing up other busted classes / issues to detract

coming in to just go `noooooo change is bad` without explaining why

and they need instead:

be nice

maybe think before posting

[Miaou]

The tone taken here is, frankly, getting close to being unacceptable if it's not already reached that line. Overly aggressive wording to just say "I am right, you are wrong" makes both an uncompelling argument in a discussion and a needlessly rude one. The forums are not the place to make fun of other players. This community is not the place for it as well. A differing opinion does not make it wrong. If you wish to voice your opinion, do so in a way that can explain and convey it rather than needlessly bash.

I'm pruning this thread. Cease the unneeded hostilities and rudeness on all accounts.

[Arigard]

Let's actually look at some numbers:

Shadow-dancers get the best summon.

Lvl 16 SD with epic Shadowlord.

base weapon + low strength bonus (Crit 20/x2)
around 30ish ac
mid-high 30s ab
78% concealment
50 hide/ms (way less than your actual PC, so it can be spotted).
1d6 sneak attacks.

Is it hard to kill? Sure, it's designed to be hard to kill, the concealment + epic dodge does this. Is it useful in PvE? Yeah, because it allows you to sneak enemies, but that doesn't work in PvP. base weapon dmg + 1d6 sneaks is terrible output. Even on a str based build it's not going to be hitting you for much. Nowhere close to the dmg output other summons can do.

Without the summon, if it gets pulled away, or focused down and if you take some rogue levels you might be lucky to get 3d6-5d6 sneaks based on your build. That's less, or equivalent to a str based lvl 16 blackguard build, who also gets a pocket WM and bonus dmg from divine might/str/weapon base etc. To say it's the most powerful summon out there is hyperbole.

I'd rather have a true seeing EDK next to me, or a pit fiend, any day of the week. They can literally take players out single handed with much higher ab, dmg, spell abilities + fear auras (especially fright).

Powerful Shadowdaze

Lvl 16 in SD with 18 base int = 35 DC Daze once every 5 minutes.

This is the equivalent of a 38 int enchantment wizard casting a 5th level spell. It's nothing to base taking 16 levels in a class for. Keep in mind it's the class level that adds to the DC, so a 5 dip will give you a save in the low-mid 20's.

None of these things make taking heavy Shadowdancer worth it. A straight shadow-dancer has one real strength that makes it even come close to being competitive and that's HIPS. Could it be tiered to reward more investment in SD over dipping? Sure, I can see an argument for that as other builds with dips get lots more tools in their toolkit. Attacking HIPS flatly across the board though is just going to kill off an entire class option when there are an abundance of easily achievable ways IG to counter it for almost all class combinations. Plus, there is nothing stopping the defender from moving when they see the SD disengage to HIPS, especially if they have listen, as that would force a shadowdancer to move to them and trigger the listen rolls.

[Zavandar]

Couldn't tell you how many pvps I won on a wizard with phantasmal killer

Shadow evade also isnt bad at all, but it is barely getting talked about.

I agree that the shadow could stand to have more hide/ms. Through careful buffing it can hit low 40s ab actually

Microing your pet isnt hard, and all you have to do is just have it near you.

Between shadow daze and the shadow crippling, you need nep and clarity to be super safe.

Lot of SDs build something like 17/8/5 or 17/6/7 sd/fighter/rogue. You get plenty of sneaks with that. 100+ crits are easily achieved.

sd isnt bad, especially in the year of our lore. now a lot of people gave to choose between detect and lore. And let's not forget that TS lasts 6 seconds, and that you can just find a corner in the time it takes for someone to read from a scroll of it

[the grim yeeter]

One of the most broken things about hips (yes, there are more than one) is if you hit it mid-combat, you cause the opponent(s) to automatically disengage and turn flat-footed. If you then, after hipsing into stealth, immediately re-engage, you can get a free flurry vs. flat-footed AC. This is extremely powerful and certainly should not be a thing. And it definitely shouldn't be a thing you can do every 12 seconds.

[Misericordus]

One of the most broken things about hips (yes, there are more than one) is if you hit it mid-combat, you cause the opponent(s) to automatically disengage and turn flat-footed. If you then, after hipsing into stealth, immediately re-engage, you can get a free flurry vs. flat-footed AC. This is extremely powerful and definitely should not be a thing.

Thank you for articulating this more concisely than I was able to. This is definitely the most glaring issue with it — and this happens regardless of whether the HiPSer is detected. Combat is force-stopped either way, and you have to reacquire your target immediately to re-engage or eat a flat-footed sneak attack flurry.

[Drogo Gyslain]

One of the most broken things about hips (yes, there are more than one) is if you hit it mid-combat, you cause the opponent(s) to automatically disengage and turn flat-footed. If you then, after hipsing into stealth, immediately re-engage, you can get a free flurry vs. flat-footed AC. This is extremely powerful and definitely should not be a thing.

Thank you for articulating this more concisely than I was able to. This is definitely the most glaring issue with it — and this happens regardless of whether the HiPSer is detected. Combat is force-stopped either way, and you have to reacquire your target immediately to re-engage or eat a flat-footed sneak attack flurry.

My only question to this... Is HiPS beaten by See Invisibility or TS? If it is, and there is a counter to it, then while shady and underhanded it is a COMPLETELY valid battle tactic. Not everything has to be so fair and balanced.

[the grim yeeter]

One of the most broken things about hips (yes, there are more than one) is if you hit it mid-combat, you cause the opponent(s) to automatically disengage and turn flat-footed. If you then, after hipsing into stealth, immediately re-engage, you can get a free flurry vs. flat-footed AC. This is extremely powerful and definitely should not be a thing.

Thank you for articulating this more concisely than I was able to. This is definitely the most glaring issue with it — and this happens regardless of whether the HiPSer is detected. Combat is force-stopped either way, and you have to reacquire your target immediately to re-engage or eat a flat-footed sneak attack flurry.

My only question to this... Is HiPS beaten by See Invisibility or TS? If it is, and there is a counter to it, then while shady and underhanded it is a COMPLETELY valid battle tactic. Not everything has to be so fair and balanced.

No, HiPS is not beaten by See Invis. And you'd be too slow to react to this "tactic" with a TS casting or scroll. It's completely busted, as I said.

And, actually, everything does have to be as fair and balanced as possible. That's the entire point.

[Archnon]

One of the most broken things about hips (yes, there are more than one) is if you hit it mid-combat, you cause the opponent(s) to automatically disengage and turn flat-footed. If you then, after hipsing into stealth, immediately re-engage, you can get a free flurry vs. flat-footed AC. This is extremely powerful and certainly should not be a thing. And it definitely shouldn't be a thing you can do every 12 seconds.

Uncanny Dodge negates this.

Lets recall:
1.) No build that actually uses dex AC is going to survive without Uncanny dodge.
2.) It is really easy to get uncanny dodge with many of the normal dips: Rogue (2), Barbarian (2), SD (2), Assassin (2), SS (1), Warlock/Feylock 1, Monk 12, Ranger 8..... there are probably more there. This is one reason a rogue dip is so common.
3.) A fighter who doesn't dip for uncanny dodge loses dex bonus, sure. However, on most of these build, the preferred armor of choice (elven? pally?) only allows 4 dex AC, so you are talking about a 4 AC drop...... this evens up the UBAB of a full rogue/sd build for 1 round. For context, A knocked down character is flat footed and the attacker also gets +4 AC

The Reality:
-HIPS gives most character the opportunity to strike first (RP requirements restrict this somewhat).
-HIPS gives most characters an escape, basically a chance to run or reset. (Both parties get to reset, ie, if they hips and you are not heal kitting or spamming potions, your a fool)
-HIPS gives pure rogue builds a chance to do massive damage.... This is the rub that no one wants to come down hard on. This is true. However, the question is 1.) Is it outside the realm of say, Divine/Barb/WM damage? 2.) Does it make the class OP in the broader context.....

Perhaps a nice alternative would be to not extend the cooldown of hips but to instead make it so that HIPS'ing costs an action.... ie, you disappear and cannot engage for a round. This would give most builds the chance to counter with a TS scroll.

[Wrips]

You still lose Tumble AC and Dodge AC when caught flat footed, even with Uncanny Dodge. The only thing you retain is your DEX bonus to AC.

[Drogo Gyslain]

One of the most broken things about hips (yes, there are more than one) is if you hit it mid-combat, you cause the opponent(s) to automatically disengage and turn flat-footed. If you then, after hipsing into stealth, immediately re-engage, you can get a free flurry vs. flat-footed AC. This is extremely powerful and certainly should not be a thing. And it definitely shouldn't be a thing you can do every 12 seconds.

Uncanny Dodge negates this.

Lets recall:
1.) No build that actually uses dex AC is going to survive without Uncanny dodge.
2.) It is really easy to get uncanny dodge with many of the normal dips: Rogue (2), Barbarian (2), SD (2), Assassin (2), SS (1), Warlock/Feylock 1, Monk 12, Ranger 8..... there are probably more there. This is one reason a rogue dip is so common.
3.) A fighter who doesn't dip for uncanny dodge loses dex bonus, sure. However, on most of these build, the preferred armor of choice (elven? pally?) only allows 4 dex AC, so you are talking about a 4 AC drop...... this evens up the UBAB of a full rogue/sd build for 1 round. For context, A knocked down character is flat footed and the attacker also gets +4 AC

The Reality:
-HIPS gives most character the opportunity to strike first (RP requirements restrict this somewhat).
-HIPS gives most characters an escape, basically a chance to run or reset. (Both parties get to reset, ie, if they hips and you are not heal kitting or spamming potions, your a fool)
-HIPS gives pure rogue builds a chance to do massive damage.... This is the rub that no one wants to come down hard on. This is true. However, the question is 1.) Is it outside the realm of say, Divine/Barb/WM damage? 2.) Does it make the class OP in the broader context.....

Perhaps a nice alternative would be to not extend the cooldown of hips but to instead make it so that HIPS'ing costs an action.... ie, you disappear and cannot engage for a round. This would give most builds the chance to counter with a TS scroll.

This sounds like a more reasonable solution.

It's supposed to break combat, but make it counterable with some form of magic like TS or See Invis, that way yea, you can't just break combat and stab someone in the same second.

But overall, it's not that bad of a technique and it's not that far unbalanced.

[the grim yeeter]

Uncanny Dodge negates this.

Not the dodge AC, which is a lot: +4 from haste, +1 from MA, +1 from boots, typically +8 to +10 from divine shield, +2 to typically +5 from bard song, and a few more. Not to forget up to +6 from tumble. Moreover, not every build gets Uncanny Dodge. In fact, a lot of builds don't (and yes, I did see the list of dip options you mentioned. Well done.).

3.) A fighter who doesn't dip for uncanny dodge loses dex bonus, sure. However, on most of these build, the preferred armor of choice (elven? pally?) only allows 4 dex AC, so you are talking about a 4 AC drop......

See above.

For context, A knocked down character is flat footed and the attacker also gets +4 AC

The attempt of knocking someone down comes with a large AB penalty as cost. The mid-combat HiPS doesn't.

But overall, it's not that bad of a technique and it's not that far unbalanced.

Yeeeaaah, it is. For the several reasons I mentioned.