new spells

[Hunter548]

pretty much all of the new "shadow" spells are busted OP and should not be added to the game

daltim's firey tentacles and kyristan's malevolent tentacles are too

[the grim yeeter]

agreed. whoever made these is probably playing a shadow mage.

and before some of you (you know who you are) come in here saying "they are not that powerful", please do not make us have to explain

[Zavandar]

let's take a gander...... .

daltim's: too much damage. yeah you can equip a helm of brilliance and essences reduce it a bit, but it's still really strong. ALSO IGNORES SC/SR

kyristan's: necromancy (so potent for shadowmage) lvl 6 (so higher dc), and TWO debuffs (countered by fom/nep, but those are on the breach list). level drain on top of para, so it will dunk on praying for health back. walking through a field of this could potentially level drain someone to death in a second. ALSO IGNORES SC/SR

darkbolt: 8 less damage than a maximized igms at a lower spell level (120 vs 112) but can also make 7 attempts to daze a round. sure it has a touch attack attached, but this is VERY strong out of time stop. still unsure if shadowmages are able to cast this, since it's evo (but shadowmages can cast darkness and this spell has the darkness descriptor)

mass hold monster: actually don't have a problem with this. weird exists, and this is countered in every way weird is countered AND can also be countered by freedom

greater shadow evo: shadow storm is strong. idk if it can be empowered (i hear shadow conj spells cannot be metamagic'd). also provides ice storm, a means for shadowmage to do direct damage

shadow evo: same as above, idk if these spells can be meta'd. 80 direct damage shadowbolt vs 120 damage igms would be fair-ish

greater shadow conj: seems to have combined shadow conj and shades. the addition of flame arrow seems strange and provides another means to do direct damage. maximized flame arrow (and greater shadow conj is the same spell level as igms) can do 144 damage

shadow plague: a shadowmage replacement for incendiary cloud. it says it blinds like darkness, so would have to test if ultravision counters it



all in all, these changes give shadowmages many means to do direct damage that they didn't have before. this defeats the purpose of shadowmage, whose main weakness was SUPPOSED to be the lack of direct damage.


i've provided a picture to illustrate how fighting a shadowmage will go now:

[MorallyGrey]

Update:


Wiki:


Me:


(the spells are also incredibly powerful, but i'll leave the math to more patient minds)

[Hunter548]

So in the interet of something more helpful than that grim yeeter post:


Daltim's:

This produces, on average, 22.5 tentacle. Each tentacle does 15 fire damage (savelessly?) and you can be hit with half of the tentacles for 11.25 tentacles and an average of 168.75 fire damage per round. That's about a max'd IGMS and a half, before essences/fire resistance. If you have a fire resistant essence it's till 112.5 fire damage, or basically a max'd IGMS. For a level 5 spell slot, and as a persistent AoE, that can also paralyze you.

Kyristan's:

It's a persistent AoE (so ignores spellcraft if targetted on the ground and every round after the first) necromancy (SHADOWMAGES) spell that you need two immunities to be immune to, both of which are breachable. If you're not immune, you need to make 11.25 saves on average to avoid being level drained and stuck in it for the next round and next slew of saves. Each negative level also makes you more likely to fail the next save since level drain gives you -1 universal save per negative level. If you have average fort and aren't pre-buffed, you could pretty easily get stuck in this and die over the course of 2-3 rounds.


Both tentacle spells: I'm assuming that you can empower them the same way that you can empower evards, and that they work similarly to evards when empowered (IE, instead of getting d4+20 tentacles, you get d4x1.5+30 tentacles). That means Daltim's instead does 240 (Two max'd IGMS) without a fire essence and Kyristan's instead forces you to make 16/17 saves.

Darkbolt:

If you hit with every bolt this does 14d8 damage, and have to make seven will saves to avoid a daze. If you can maximize this, it does almost as much damage as a maximize'd IGMS, and has seven chances to daze you for a round, for one lower spell level. As far as I can tell, there's no save/half on this. Carry dust of appearance to strip concealment, and a set of +15 darts from chest loot to reliably hit the touch attack against basically everyone.

(Can shadow mages cast this? The update thread makes it sound like they can but it's evocation)

Mass Hold Monster:

This one is fine. Good spell, doesn't replace any existing spells. Competes with weird with both still being useful. Good addition.

Greater Shadow Evocation:
Adding lots of direct damage to shadow mages is kind of weird if you want giving up evocation to still be a drawback.

Shadow storm: I don't know if you can metamagic this (You can't metamagic the vanilla shadow conj. damage spells) but even if you can't it's more damage than an un-metamagic'd Chain Lightning.


Shadow Conjuration Spells/Shadow Plague:

These are whatever. They're not too strong, but they're not that useful either (And look like the shadow conj spells got nerfed from vanilla, which is strange).

[Naiinara]

I just want to post the information for a nwn base spell already in game as a way of easy comparison for any who venture to this thread.

Evard's Black Tentacles

Caster level: Wizard/Sorcerer 4
Innate level: 4
School: Conjuration
Descriptors:
Components: Verbal, Somatic
Range: Medium 20 meters
Area of Effect: large 5 meter radius, 1d4 tentacles +1/ caster level (maximum of 20)
Duration: 1 round/ 2 levels
Save: fortitude special
Spell resistance: no

A field of thick, 10 foot long rubbery tentacles rises from the ground. Each is capable of grappling a target doing 1d6+4 points bludgeoning damage. If successful, the target must then make a fortitude saving throw or become paralyzed by the grappling tentacle. The tentacles are randomly spread out over the area of effect allowing no more than half of the tentacles to reach a single target in any given round. The inability of the tentacles to target small creatures makes all small creatures completely immune to the spell's effects.

A failed grapple means tentacle does not hit, do damage, or then require a fortitude save.

Note: Grapple check is as follows: 1d20 + caster level (to a maximum of 20) + 4(tentacle's strength modifier) + 4(tentacle's size modifier) versus 1d20 + base attack bonus + strength modifier + size modifier.

Note: tentacles count as non magical weapons, i.e. can not bypass damage reduction of things like ghostly visage, shadowshield, ethereal visage, stoneskin, etc.

Note: Immunity to mind affecting spells or freedom of movement will negate the paralysis.

Note: Spell does not allow bonus to saves from Spellcraft to count when determining if a character succeeds on saving throw.


Edit:
Also, MorallyGrey I think you'll find the Shadow Evocation spell's school is listed as Illusion. Shadow Conjuration isn't Conjuration school either. They're all illusion. It has more to do with the spell's the caster is mimicking with the shadow plane energy. That is the shadow conjuration spells would be using the shadow plane to mimick conjuration spells of some sort. Though in neverwinter nights it does not exactly follow this all the time. I suppose for ease of coding and use, but that is the etymology of the name.

Also, I did not read anywhere these were restricted to shadow mages, though I may be wrong. But, shadow conjuration shades and greater shadow conjuration have always been available to all wizards and sorcerers.

[Zavandar]

Also, I did not read anywhere these were restricted to shadow mages, though I may be wrong. But, shadow conjuration shades and greater shadow conjuration have always been available to all wizards and sorcerers.

these spells were very clearly made with shadowmages in mind. regular arcanists were already fine and some of these spells make them better.

shadowmages not having direct damage was by design. these spells circumvent that.

[BHR55]

First these spells are not in any way restricted to shadow mages, that assertion was a bit erroneous revolving around the discussion of darkbolt and its use in canon. They are for all to enjoy. Darkbolt can be used by shadow mages despite, they get no benefit at this point in time, in fact Evoker's are better at this.

Only one save regardless of how much you touch whomever you want to touch, and with + from darts likely to go away once its possible to do so for touch attacks to better match source in that regard as well, should be a non issue.

The Shadow Mage path with roughly and somewhat poorly(in some cases) mimics the Shadow Adept PrC from PnP which in PnP are not restricted from using any form of Evocation(besides light descriptor), though they do take a penalty to it along with transmutation.

The "You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell" is pulled from the source books so the wording might not match the older text of the wiki. The spells description itself illustrates the fact that it is a "conjuring" from the shadow plane as would be done by a caster using "Shadow Magic" not to be mistaken with the "Shadow Weave" which is like a different power company for your mage. Another example is Shadow Plague which sees you conjurer summoning "weather" from the shadow plane.

All of these spells are based on their PnP counterparts and see Conjurer's with the most variety. Tentacles does not 1.5 x the 20 in tentacle spells only the 1d4 die. Tentacles are also limited form making more than half their number able to attack you in any given round. Grapple checks still required, Kyristan's is limited to a further 1/3 as of this writing. Adjustments will be made as needed, apparently these mages liked Evards and thought "Hey I could do better". Metamagic will not improve the damage numbers of either set of tentacles.

The shades line of spells do not accept metamagic(besides still and silent) so are stuck with always making a dice roll. The Shadow bolt and storm both better match the theme since Shadow Conjuration gets summon shades which is not a spell anywhere else. Also their damage types are split and thus are easier to absorb presently along with mind affecting making you save immediately against them. I doubt IGMS would be more fun, but technically in PnP you could cast that too.

Flame arrow because its conjuration, not that many choices there? Cloudkill?

Nerf? Not sure what you mean.

Lack of any direct damage by design? Design flaw maybe, if the older suggestion to have the Shadow adept PrC be made reality was anything to go by as it was written or proposed that certainly would not remain the case. Not to say it will become a reality, but reiterating the fact its not necessarily true if the source is followed.

We will be looking at their use and make necessary adjustments where they are needed.

[Naiinara]

Zavandar,
Well I was just responding to MorallyGrey. Technically Shadow conjuration and shadow weave are not the same. I think Arelith treats shadow weave users a little different than the base rules too, hence the confusion. Though I'm not familiar with shadow mages on arelith, so I'll let someone else explain there.

Also there were already direct damage non evocation spells. Evard's Black tentacles, Flame Arrow, Mestil's Acid Breathe. There might be some newer ones too that I'm forgetting. Freeze I think was conjuration too. Freeze even makes someone weak to fire. I wouldn't want to get hit with flame arrow then.

Anyone my point is I think we're better off sticking to balancing the spells than worrying about no direct damage. The evil necromancy tentacle one for instance makes me nervous. Energy Drain level 9 spell has one target fortitude save to resist (nwn thing, base rules it has no save) 2d4 negative levels. The Malevolent tentacles is area of effect (possible multiple targets) has multiple attempts to drain (once per round) and on top of that can paralyze. Lets not forget each level drained is also in effect a -1 to saves, making further drain attempts easier. Malevolent tentacles seems better than a level 9 spell, at least because of that forced fortitude save on energy drain (and I'm assuming like evards malevolent tentacles ignores spellcraft bonus to saves, unlike energy drain). So, if we need that fortitude save on energy drain, we probably need to rethink malevolent tentacles.

Also, I'm curious, can someone cast malevolent tentacles, and evards black tentacles and fiery tentacles on top of each other, or are they considered the same spell where they will cancel each other out?

[MorallyGrey]

Lack of any direct damage by design? Design flaw maybe

No, that was very much the design intention and why their spells have an innately higher DC. Giving them direct damage and going in that direction makes me wonder why they still have the improved DCs if that's where the class wants to go.

Is the damage lower than standard evo? Of course, yes. But it's an unnecessary boon on top of an already powerful kit.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Weren't people saying shadow mages are a terrible class about a week or two ago? Why so much fuss over something that helps them be more competitive with other mages?

I think the additions help add variety. They are, as mentioned, able to be enjoyed by all anyways.

[Zavandar]

Lack of any direct damage by design? Design flaw maybe

there is very little reason to not go shadowmage if they can do direct damage, aside from not being able to cast evo spells that check reflex

the extra DC (a 10% extra chance for your saves spells to succeed) and HiPS is extremely strong. you can HiPS and then darkbolt so the target is flatfoot, which basically guarantees your bolts will hit. it's great that these spells are for "all to enjoy", but given their themes and what they open up for shadowmages, the intended audience/recipients is obvious. shadowmages definitely enjoy them MORE, as they remedy one of the class's greatest weaknesses: the lack of direct damage.

[Chosen Son]

Does Shield offer immunity to darkbolt if one has esf abj?

Empowered IGMS and Maximized Darkbolt both do magic damage, (105 for empowered igms, and 112 for maximized darkbolt if all bolts hit), occupy the same lvl 8 spellslot, only darkbolt has a disable effect on it.

There is no reason at all that shadowmages should be able to put out this kind of direct damage, especially as Zavander points out, HIPS lets them cast on flat footed targets. Evocation mages didnt need a boost either, imho.

[SongSinger]

Honestly, I'm seeing a lot of concerns about balancing but reckon that'll be toned and refined over the next few days. So currently I don't see that as an issue if it's not heavily abused (I don't think it will be. Too much PvP will probably provoke a quick response from the team after all).

I do agree that Darkbolt seems pretty strong. RTA isn't easy for a lot to dodge, but then some builds with high touch AC won't care.

Something I am going to be very eager into seeing is how this is going to affect general illusionists (because not all of them are Sharrans, naturally) and if this helps them further into more diverse ways to help parties and address how they play their characters.

Shadow Mages too lately kind had to rely on non-shadowy magic before this (I'm hoping this changes that), and a lot of save-or-die spells (which aren't really fun to face, let's be real for a second. You're either rolling a pally/bg dip and they have to fish for 1's, or dispelled and kinda dead.), just to make do.

Direct damage as an alternative in my opinion is better than just a save or die. You will get more chances to react to it, and it'll be more fun for general illusionists.

All in all, I think this is going to be fun and it'll be interesting to interact with.

[Mad Martigin]

I think the spells look pretty unique and exciting, I look forward to any new changes coming our way. They add another layer of versatility to the gameplay of mages outside of IGMS and Wail.

Kudos to the dev team and thanks for not making it Shadowmage exclusive!

[Zavandar]

Direct damage as an alternative in my opinion is better than just a save or die. You will get more chances to react to it, and it'll be more fun for general illusionists.

not if you're dazed

adding an ak 47 would be unique. that doesn't mean it'd be good for balance, even if other arcanists could use it. also, one specific class has a better chance to hit with that ak and can disappear from sight.

novelty fades, but the spells will remain broken in a shadowmage's kit

[Complex]

it's great to add more stuff and add more versatility and etc, but part of that versality is what shadowmages were giving up so they could get huge DCs and hips, which are both very strong (even if they are toxic, unfun mechanics). saying that 'everyone can enjoy it' is kind of... weird bc it's like saying everyone can enjoy a world of faith scroll by only reaching 50 lore when only mages will be able to exploit it since they are the only ones who can cast mords to get rid of nasty SR. we can all enjoy it, sure, but some people can enjoy it a lot more and it is obvious why.

[SongSinger]

not if you're dazed

Honestly, I see this is a fantastic alternative to dying outright. It means there's a chance RP before being outright killed, and it'll give the users of this spell a chance to offer their opponents a monologue or one-liner, etc. for some dramatic effect.
If needed, granting temporary immunity to daze (similar to the KD immunity) might work out?

Hopefully it'll allow more of a chance to interact more with those who fight, on an RP perspective anyway.

Better than sitting in the fugue and wondering if you're going to get raised for prisoner RP after suddenly getting a SoD dropped on you, losing any gold you had, and worst of all, not giving the villains (or heroes) the satisfaction of a little one-liner or some banter during combat.

[Zavandar]

let's break down this "open to everyone" argument, too. let's actually look at the spells and see how many a non-shadowmage would actually use.

daltims: everyone can cast it, good damage. does it need to exist?

kyristans: already went over how strong it is, shadowmage just buffs the DC. does it need to exist? (and at spell level 6?)

darkbolt: non-shadowmage can grab evo to actually buff this spell's dc, so there's an argument for that; however, shadowmage can HiPS to guarantee the touch attacks land, and with 7 of them, that's a lot of chances for a 1. EDIT: i've learned that it only checks once per cast, not per missile.

mass hold monster: non-shadowmage enchanters can use this. good! it's just better in the hands of a shadowmage

shadow evo:
gust of wind: reg arcanists can cast the base version, DC isn't great and a better spell can usually be cast. good for clearing cloud spells. opens up for shadowmages to use it now, since it's evo.
wall of fire: non sm could just cast regular version. opens up for shadowmage.
elemental shield: non sm can cast regular version. opens up for shadowmage. acid sheathe is better as a biteback either way (and both can use)
shadowbolt: 10d8 max, so 44 average damage. AND a will save for half. this spell is very weak.

greater shadow evo:
shadow storm: does an average of 90 damage if it cannot be metamagic'd, then 40 to a second target (130 total). igms does 120, and 240 vs two characters. situations it would be used instead are niche.
ball lightning: 52 damage on average and that's assuming the reflex save is failed (and a lack of evasion). why would you cast this as a non shadowmage?
ice storm: regular mages can just cast the normal version.
interposing hand: a point for the non-evo arcanist, this spell could see some use from non-sm illusionists. still better for an sm though.

shadow conj:
mage armor: nice for umd, has a higher CL than regular mage armor. existed before the change. no special shadowmage interaction
ghostly visage: same as above
grease: illusion instead of conj. guess it's nice for the illusionist that also goes necro (instead of conj, but most arcanists get one or the other). know what else often goes illu/necro and gets bonuses to the DCs? Shadowmages
summon shadow(2): niche but fun spell, existed before the change. don't have a problem with it.
mestil's acid breath: horrible spell

greater shadow conj:
web: same as the grease example
minor globe: same as mage armor and ghostly visage, but i hear this version can't be breached?
stoneskin: could just cast it normally and at a lower spell level
summoned shadow(3): same as (2)
flame arrow: a non-sm could just cast igms. maximized flame arrow can do a potential 144, but is reduced by essences, a reflex save (and by extension evasion).

shadow plague: incendiary cloud does the same thing at the same spell level but does more damage. non-sm wouldn't cast it.



as you can see, these additional spells are a very mixed bag as far as usefulness for non-shadowmages. some of them won't even be used by either.

[DangerDolphin]

Perhaps this change should be counterbalanced with nerfs and adjustments to shadow mage save-or-die spells then, such as making Finger Of Death require Low HP or a lower level than you. Likewise, remove Weird's death effect but boost it's non-lethal ones.

[chris a gogo]

The spell with the exception of the mas hold will probably get altered in the next week or so because they are massively OP.

As to the shadow mage issue it's strange to remove the only draw back the class had while it keeps it's massive advantages of hips and dc's.

Give it a week then if it stays as is roll up a shadow mage they will be the new apex predators.

[Aniel]

To preface this: This isn't meant to in any way come off as mean to whoever implemented these spells or contributed to their creation - new spells are cool, but I worry that they have some scary balance implications. The below is me highlighting my thoughts on how this can affect balance.

My greatest concern with this update is that wizard/sorc are already very, very, very excellent classes, some of the best. The Lore/UMD update that completely skewed the entire balance of everything basically didn't affect them and there's been little weakening since then.

Every time anything is added to wizard, no matter how benign, it's very important to ensure that it isn't too powerful, more than any other class receiving something I reckon.

For reasons other people have pointed out, these spells are not only good, but they're also incredibly powerful in a class that has no room to be receiving good spells. Read: It's a direct buff to one of the strongest classes already existing, a class that certainly doesn't need any buffs when it's already outperforming other classes that are being nerfed (see: WoF, one of caster cleric's best tools having its duration squashed).

A lot of effort went into these and I certainly wouldn't call for their removal, but I hope that there's another balance pass, the numbers are adjusted and that future spells are directed to classes that could really use options.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Would be great if these spells had these damages if, and only if the caster was a shadow mage, and give them a damage reduction if casted using the weave.

[Zavandar]

Would be great if these spells had these damages if, and only if the caster was a shadow mage, and give them a damage reduction if casted using the weave.

a non-shadowmage wouldn't be using these spells for damage. the ONLY exception would be darkbolt. non-shadowmages have igms.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Would be great if these spells had these damages if, and only if the caster was a shadow mage, and give them a damage reduction if casted using the weave.

a non-shadowmage wouldn't be using these spells for damage. the ONLY exception would be darkbolt. non-shadowmages have igms.

I'm confused.

So did you always have a problem with shadow conjuration?