Underdark Slavery

[Talvenlapsi]

rule 1 - all free beings are of higher standing than your character is and should always be shown proper behavior - doesnt matter if that free being is a drow or a goblin, being free trumps being collared period end of story
- this does not mean you wont work to try to be free and get to the surface again if you were captured when not in public sight, but born slaves ie from level 1 wouldnt know how to act being free for they never have even comprehended such

rule 2 - all slaves are equal, unless one is put above another

rule 3 - all slaves are valuable property in some shape and or fashion - as a guard, a consort, a pit fighter, etc - it makes sense to be a proud slave, but that doesnt mean you forget the first rule

if you as a player cannot follow these simple three rules, then you should not play a slave in any regard

by not acting as a slave would in the underdark does two things.

it breaks immersion that everyone else works so hard to create

it shows that player ego and mechanics are more important that creating the story, of which Arelith revolves around

Mmm.. I'm going to put my two cents in, from perspective of a Slave characters player, who is very much not respecting most of the rules stated above. And that is not because of "player ego", mind you. I've played Slave that was extremely obedient, respectful, and careful in her way of acting towards anyone that was not a slave, and even other slaves, but that aside..
"Slave" tag doesn't mean your character loses their personality immediately. Oh no, there are flippant, problem slaves that will fight against the given rules, or the ones that have different set of rules given By their master/mistress that is the code they bide to, not the "general" ruleset of what someone else thinks is appropriate.

I play a slave that is very confident, arrogant, high-above, because she never lost her confidence and sense of being better than anyone else. But guess who she never will be above of? Her master. She will always respect the one that has name on her, to the ends of the earth, and is disciplined to do exactly that. Her whole thing is trying limits. Testing waters. Poking at the bees nest. If it backfires? Then appropriate consequences will follow. (And trust me - that has happened, more than once, and the character has always learned from it, somehow.)
Yes, a stereotypical "good" slave would be respectful towards everyone. But not every slave will fall to that mold, some just don't want to behave well, some will act differently. Punish it IC and make it good RP all around.


Rule 2 - All Slaves are equal: Well.. no. not all non-slaves are equal. Not all servants are equal. Not all workers are equal. Some slaves are more valuable than others, some masters may view their slaves in different importances, and slaves, as everyone else, may see themselves in different value than other slaves.

With rule 3, however, I do agree. Slaves are valuable (or less-valuable, depending of the slave and the owner) property.

Sorry if I'm breaking your immersion by playing slave that doesn't fit the stereotypical mold for slave. But I do not think "I shouldn't play slave in any regard" just because she doesn't go to that mold. I've had blast playing her, and I've gotten good and bad opinions over her. You can ask her master anytime to whoop her butt if she misbehaves, and she will develop as a character through that. Slaves come in all shapes and sizes, just because mine doesn't immediately bow to every free person ever, doesn't mean she shouldn't exist.


Also, point in general, not as an answer to the quoted person:
If you have no experience in playin slave or master.. Try to think about how your suggestions will feel to those actually effected. Don't make the game unfun OOC just because you, who may have no experience whatsoever, think things should be different. Maybe they should, but the weight for changes should be on those that actually will or have experienced the mechannics and RP themselves. :/

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Sorry if I'm breaking your immersion by playing slave that doesn't fit the stereotypical mold for slave. But I do not think "I shouldn't play slave in any regard" just because she doesn't go to that mold. I've had blast playing her, and I've gotten good and bad opinions over her. You can ask her master anytime to whoop her butt if she misbehaves, and she will develop as a character through that. Slaves come in all shapes and sizes, just because mine doesn't immediately bow to every free person ever, doesn't mean she shouldn't exist.

Also, point in general, not as an answer to the quoted person:
If you have no experience in playin slave or master.. Try to think about how your suggestions will feel to those actually effected. Don't make the game unfun OOC just because you, who may have no experience whatsoever, think things should be different. Maybe they should, but the weight for changes should be on those that actually will or have experienced the mechannics and RP themselves. :/

Hey! I played a character that went down into the underdark and got collared on purpose, so he could look for his sister who went missing down there. I used the purchase freedom method - I still think Kuma's idea would be a good one, even if it applied to me.

Forgive the snipping, but I wanted to ask you- if you pop off on a citizen of Andunor on your slave out in the streets in public, less so about how I think your slave should behave, I wonder how it is that you justify the peacekeepers all around the city not beating the snot out of you?

I guess what I'm saying is, I kind of feel like a slave attacking a non-slave in the streets of Andunor is roughly about the same as attacking someone in front of a Cordor Elite guard in the city of Cordor. In both instances, you are ignoring the presence of NPC's that cannot react to your characters actions and therefore inflict appropriate consequences unless there is a DM around watching you to possess them. Acting in this way and taking advantage of the fact that DM's aren't there to possess them is already considered a form of god-moding and is against the rules (not a DM, but the ruling has definitely been made on multiple occasions for other similar circumstances).

I'm not suggesting slaves can't be vain, prideful, rebellious hard-asses. I'm suggesting that doing it in the streets in front of peacekeepers is immersion-breaking because, to me, atmospherically, it's blithely breaking the rule about not ignoring NPCs- your slave isn't enough of a bad-Snuggybear to take out the entire peacekeeper corps - by attacking an Andunorian non-slave citizen in front of the Peacekeepers, you are depriving them of their ability to put you in your place unless you have notified a DM first.

Whether or not you agree that such a slave deserves to be attacked by the peacekeepers would be irrelevant- atmospherically that's the DM's decision, and based on this thread, I'd argue that the staff seems to have made its stance clear on this situation.

I can't think of a single justification why a city that allows slavery and has a drow-run police force wouldn't make it standard practice to leave any slave that attacks a non-slave as a bloody mess in the dirt. I'm open to ideas, but I'm not seeing how you're going to explain it without a reach like Stretch Armstrong.

[Nitro]

Remember that the peacekeepers, contrary to their name, are not there to keep the peace. If you talk to the captain, he clarifies in dialogue that he doesn't give an iota about people killing each other in the streets, they're just there to make sure external threats can't threaten the city.

I can't think of a single justification why a city that allows slavery and has a drow-run police force wouldn't make it standard practice to leave any slave that attacks a non-slave as a bloody mess in the dirt. I'm open to ideas, but I'm not seeing how you're going to explain it without a reach like Stretch Armstrong.

So this is all up to the players. Start asking yourself why players haven't left that slave as a bloody mess in the dirt.

[Kuma]

I can't think of a single justification why a city that allows slavery and has a drow-run police force wouldn't make it standard practice to leave any slave that attacks a non-slave as a bloody mess in the dirt. I'm open to ideas, but I'm not seeing how you're going to explain it without a reach like Stretch Armstrong.

i will say, what drow run police force is this exactly, cause the peacekeepers are not that

[Talvenlapsi]

Sorry if I'm breaking your immersion by playing slave that doesn't fit the stereotypical mold for slave. But I do not think "I shouldn't play slave in any regard" just because she doesn't go to that mold. I've had blast playing her, and I've gotten good and bad opinions over her. You can ask her master anytime to whoop her butt if she misbehaves, and she will develop as a character through that. Slaves come in all shapes and sizes, just because mine doesn't immediately bow to every free person ever, doesn't mean she shouldn't exist.

Also, point in general, not as an answer to the quoted person:
If you have no experience in playin slave or master.. Try to think about how your suggestions will feel to those actually effected. Don't make the game unfun OOC just because you, who may have no experience whatsoever, think things should be different. Maybe they should, but the weight for changes should be on those that actually will or have experienced the mechannics and RP themselves. :/

Hey! I played a character that went down into the underdark and got collared on purpose, so he could look for his sister who went missing down there. I used the purchase freedom method - I still think Kuma's idea would be a good one, even if it applied to me.

Forgive the snipping, but I wanted to ask you- if you pop off on a citizen of Andunor on your slave out in the streets in public, less so about how I think your slave should behave, I wonder how it is that you justify the peacekeepers all around the city not beating the snot out of you?

I guess what I'm saying is, I kind of feel like a slave attacking a non-slave in the streets of Andunor is roughly about the same as attacking someone in front of a Cordor Elite guard in the city of Cordor. In both instances, you are ignoring the presence of NPC's that cannot react to your characters actions and therefore inflict appropriate consequences unless there is a DM around watching you to possess them. Acting in this way and taking advantage of the fact that DM's aren't there to possess them is already considered a form of god-moding and is against the rules (not a DM, but the ruling has definitely been made on multiple occasions for other similar circumstances).

I'm not suggesting slaves can't be vain, prideful, rebellious hard-asses. I'm suggesting that doing it in the streets in front of peacekeepers is immersion-breaking because, to me, atmospherically, it's blithely breaking the rule about not ignoring NPCs- your slave isn't enough of a bad-Snuggybear to take out the entire peacekeeper corps - by attacking an Andunorian non-slave citizen in front of the Peacekeepers, you are depriving them of their ability to put you in your place unless you have notified a DM first.

Whether or not you agree that such a slave deserves to be attacked by the peacekeepers would be irrelevant- atmospherically that's the DM's decision, and based on this thread, I'd argue that the staff seems to have made its stance clear on this situation.

I can't think of a single justification why a city that allows slavery and has a drow-run police force wouldn't make it standard practice to leave any slave that attacks a non-slave as a bloody mess in the dirt. I'm open to ideas, but I'm not seeing how you're going to explain it without a reach like Stretch Armstrong.

As some stated after me, peacekeepers aren't there to do that. They just make sure nothing comes from outside to threaten the city and otherwise give probably less damn than anyone else.
Also, my slave never pops at anyone unless they pop at her first. She isn't stupid, albeit self-centered and prideful, so she'd never attack anyone unless they pick up a battle with her first. If someone wants to whoop some butt on her because she fought against someone that attacked on her first, I don't mind.
But also harming other people's property without proper reason can be a questionable choice, depending if the masters want to keep their property pristine and not beat them up without given reason..

[The GrumpyCat]

Sorry if I'm breaking your immersion by playing slave that doesn't fit the stereotypical mold for slave. But I do not think "I shouldn't play slave in any regard" just because she doesn't go to that mold. I've had blast playing her, and I've gotten good and bad opinions over her. You can ask her master anytime to whoop her butt if she misbehaves, and she will develop as a character through that. Slaves come in all shapes and sizes, just because mine doesn't immediately bow to every free person ever, doesn't mean she shouldn't exist.

Also, point in general, not as an answer to the quoted person:
If you have no experience in playin slave or master.. Try to think about how your suggestions will feel to those actually effected. Don't make the game unfun OOC just because you, who may have no experience whatsoever, think things should be different. Maybe they should, but the weight for changes should be on those that actually will or have experienced the mechannics and RP themselves. :/

Hey! I played a character that went down into the underdark and got collared on purpose, so he could look for his sister who went missing down there. I used the purchase freedom method - I still think Kuma's idea would be a good one, even if it applied to me.

Forgive the snipping, but I wanted to ask you- if you pop off on a citizen of Andunor on your slave out in the streets in public, less so about how I think your slave should behave, I wonder how it is that you justify the peacekeepers all around the city not beating the snot out of you?

I guess what I'm saying is, I kind of feel like a slave attacking a non-slave in the streets of Andunor is roughly about the same as attacking someone in front of a Cordor Elite guard in the city of Cordor. In both instances, you are ignoring the presence of NPC's that cannot react to your characters actions and therefore inflict appropriate consequences unless there is a DM around watching you to possess them. Acting in this way and taking advantage of the fact that DM's aren't there to possess them is already considered a form of god-moding and is against the rules (not a DM, but the ruling has definitely been made on multiple occasions for other similar circumstances).

I'm not suggesting slaves can't be vain, prideful, rebellious hard-asses. I'm suggesting that doing it in the streets in front of peacekeepers is immersion-breaking because, to me, atmospherically, it's blithely breaking the rule about not ignoring NPCs- your slave isn't enough of a bad-Snuggybear to take out the entire peacekeeper corps - by attacking an Andunorian non-slave citizen in front of the Peacekeepers, you are depriving them of their ability to put you in your place unless you have notified a DM first.

Whether or not you agree that such a slave deserves to be attacked by the peacekeepers would be irrelevant- atmospherically that's the DM's decision, and based on this thread, I'd argue that the staff seems to have made its stance clear on this situation.

I can't think of a single justification why a city that allows slavery and has a drow-run police force wouldn't make it standard practice to leave any slave that attacks a non-slave as a bloody mess in the dirt. I'm open to ideas, but I'm not seeing how you're going to explain it without a reach like Stretch Armstrong.

I need to clarify a few things.

1) The Peace Keepers are not 'run' by Drow particularly. They're hired by the merchants as I recall, to keep peace. They exist to deal with external threats, and to stop the Freth/Claddeth destroying the place with their petty wars and yes, to an extent, stopping pc players from murdering all the npcs too. Peace keepers will (seldom) give a whit if a pc attacks another pc, reguardless of whether they're drow, human, orog, slave or (to an extent) surfacer. They /do/ care about pcs doing things that endanger property and npcs. And this goes back to our rule - don't attack none-hostile NPCs.

2)

I guess what I'm saying is, I kind of feel like a slave attacking a non-slave in the streets of Andunor is roughly about the same as attacking someone in front of a Cordor Elite guard in the city of Cordor. In both instances, you are ignoring the presence of NPC's that cannot react to your characters actions and therefore inflict appropriate consequences unless there is a DM around watching you to possess them. Acting in this way and taking advantage of the fact that DM's aren't there to possess them is already considered a form of god-moding and is against the rules (not a DM, but the ruling has definitely been made on multiple occasions for other similar circumstances).

You are mistaken, this isn't 'against the rules.' in general. It's likely poor rp, sure, but it's not against the rules. Unless someone really makes a habit of going on mass murder sprees, they won't be banned for it. We likely won't be congratulating them for good rp either- mark you. If the NPCs existed to stop all forms of player crime - then there would be no need for any Cordor/Bendir/or Brogendenstin guard force, and we'd just turn the entirity of Peace Keeper Andunor into a no PvP zone.


3)

I can't think of a single justification why a city that allows slavery and has a drow-run police force wouldn't make it standard practice to leave any slave that attacks a non-slave as a bloody mess in the dirt. I'm open to ideas, but I'm not seeing how you're going to explain it without a reach like Stretch Armstrong.

* Your master orders you to attack An enemy of his house, as you are his body guard slave
*You master Orders you to assassinate an enemy of her house
*Another 'free' pc tires to get your slave to do something that they would usually never do - and they must retaliate
*Your slave pc spots another pc who WAS a slave, an escaped slave, of your master and attacks!
*Your slave PC is asked to spar with a free pc to test who is better
*Your slave pc snaps after constant goading and attacks a free pc
*Your salve pc spots a goblin pickpocketing them, and automaticaly fights to retireve their (and thus their master's) belongings
*Your slave PC spots a surfacer pc spying in the hub! And decides to stop them!
*Your slave PC spots someone sneaking into their mistresses house, and tries to stop them
*your slave pc is part of an ongoing Sharps Vs Docks vs Devils table war, and gets into that mess
*Tour brainwahsed slave pc hears a group of people disrespecting their owner, and decides to take action!
*Your brainwashed slave pc discovers a group of Eilistreea Drow and decides to take action! For the glory of Lolth!

Those are just a few ideas I came up within a few minutes. I'm sure there are plenty more. And once more - Peackeepers are not Drow Run. They're run by merchants, (ok some of which happen to be drow). Would they beat down a mass slave insurrection? Sure! But a few uppity slaves? If the person attacked cannot defend themselves well, that's up to them. The Peacekeepers arn't a nanny force. And if the master is incapable of diciplining his own property again - that's going to fall on him.

[Moonlandergames]

As we may of learned from many threads before and many threads going forward. Trying to categorize and define something like "How to roleplay" In a post that takes less time to make then a session of rp probably wont do that well.

But that one three part suggestion I do enjoy so +1 to them.

[Preytoria]

The slave situation. Whew. I'll start by saying I haven't played in Andunor very long and I've never played a slave. In fact, I've only owned one slave for any length of time. But I have talked to a lot of slaves OOCly here and there. Slave RP as it actually plays out just doesn't seem that appealing, and the mechanics surrounding it could use some tweaking. Being bound to a master is a classic arc and can make for great RP: it's sticking two characters together. However, it can also be disastrous. A lot of slave RP is just getting turned into glorified farm bots. Makes sense since it's a slave, but I can't see how that is 'fun' as a player. And there are of course the horror stories we've all heard. And to make matters worse: many unhappy slaves I've talked to OOCly don't want to speak up about their complaints. It's oftentimes deemed as 'causing too much fuss.' Sadly? They are kinda right in some regards -- not that I would EVER encourage a player to sit back and take part in RP they don't enjoy or find comfortable. But Masters do spend a lot of resources on the slave and it takes a long of bending to 'wave it off.' I don't think either of those are valid excuses not to fix it though, mind.

And then there's the current Mood of Slavery in Andunor. These slaves don't 'feel' very downtrodden. They are basically regular citizens who have the slave tag. And most of the current Masters seem completely content with that. I am fine with this. But I don't like it as a player. I would rather it be solved ICly than with sweeping changes that dictate how RP is handled. I'll concede that -maybe- there is some validity to an RP policy, but it would be messy imo.

I don't even know where the blame lies, if there is any. I can tell you that out of four elf slaves I've ran into in the city, only one of them bothered to bow/nod/give the most basic acknowledgment of being a slave. And I play a drow noble of a fairly famous House. It's easy to look at that alone and say, 'Wow, people just don't take RPing a slave seriously.' But perhaps the onus is on my character to be more direct about his displeasure. I think it could be argued both ways. It gets tangled when the Masters themselves are completely OK with it. Tangled is good, but it is still tangled. If the majority of slavery doesn't feel like slavery -- which it doesn't in my mind -- it is no longer slavery. Hope this was an interesting read!

[KT28]

The outcast tag is evidence enough that the devs are more than willing and able to step in when concepts are playing out in the world contrary to their intentions. Outcasts palling around with do-gooders was eyeroll-worthy. Slave behavior in the Underdark is straight-up poisonous to the atmosphere. It's always been pretty bad, but over time it's only getting worse.

IC actions and efforts are only likely to create momentary lapses of acceptable standards in what's overall a poor dynamic - because when we get right down to it, the reason why things have gotten to this point is simply due to the fact that the mechanics make it so that no other dynamic or relationship between slaves and free peoples really makes sense. Free underdarkers will never trust slaves because they know how temporary slavery can be, no matter how much work might go into preventing freedom. Slaves will never really have their status as a lesser being ingrained into their being, because the only drawback to their slavery is an inability to participate in Andunor's farcical election cycle and the occasional ill-timed slave caller yoink. There's a huge burden and a high standard of consistent quality roleplay before people generally even bother interacting with slave characters, because that's how little trust people have in the system. Lots of people will literally warn people against buying slaves, IC and OOC, because it's simply not worth the risk to one's reputation or well-being. Nearly every underdarker can attest to having heard things like, "Don't bother with slaves, most slaves are just surface spies," or, "You have to pour attention into it or it'll escape as soon as you look away." Everyone knows a phenomenal slave roleplayer - I know a healthy handful - but the well has been thoroughly poisoned and the best antidote at this point is probably going to have to come from the devs.

I want to plus one absolutely everything magistrasa has said here.

Currently the mechanics dictate that slavery in Andunor is little more than a minor and usually temporary inconvenience. This reality has a huge impact on how slaves, masters, and bystanders behave in-game: they treat it as such. Slaves are mouthy, masters have no power, and bystanders don't care.

Characters who attempt to give slavery more weight by treating slaves poorly generally suffer extreme resistance and consequence for little gain. At a certain point even the most proud, oppressive, slave-monger drow stands to personally benefit much more from treating a slave with kindness to manipulate it for future favors once it gets free - because there's a good 90%+ chance that within a month it will be.

Mechanics matter. They matter a lot. They dictate in a lot of ways what kinds of stories get told. Right now the escaped-slave/spy-slave/rebellious-slave is such a common trope in Andunor that the sane thing for even an evil opportunist to do is to stop fighting against it and try to profit off it instead. The so-called "poor slave RP" and "poor master/enforcer" RP we are seeing is only a natural consequence of the mechanics disincentivizing any other narratives.

I firmly believe a mechanical change needs to happen to fix this; the "fault" does not lie with characters (neither slaves nor masters). Slaves and masters both are just reacting to the world in which they live. Kuma's suggestion is among the best steps in the right direction I've seen proposed so far.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

I have seen far too many miniskirt anime slave girls. Yes, I'm judging your RP.

I have been thinking recently that if the entire slavery mechanic was removed, it would be fine. Someone that wants to really play a slave still can regardless of the collar. Keep the prisoner collar since it's less... "touchy" would be a good word, than slavery.

[Arigard]

I think slavery is a very cool mechanic and should stay, but i also think it should have more weight to it. At the heart of things, it's a glaring way to simply abuse the lore structures of the world with very little penalty.

Want to play a human/elf/whatever surface build you mechanically want, but with your buddies in the Underdark and then get eventually freed so you can walk wherever you like without consequence? Roll a slave.

Want to play an Outcast but don't have a normal reward? Reward a slave and be free three weeks later.

I've seen a whole spait of new slave chars who less than a few weeks later once they are leveled are free. It's becoming glaringly obvious that it's a mechanical loophole, so there should be mechanical solutions. What has been proposed above is very good imo for at least starting to right the ship on which could be a very cool and layered system that offers a lot to the Underdark.

I'm all for letting people do what they enjoy and play with who they want to, but I've lost count of the amount of times I've started RPing with a slave who has a collar on to be told by them IC "Oh I'm waiting for this player OOC that I made this slave for", or having a literal list of demands made OOC about what they want to do and the way as the slave owner I should act before they think about accepting the offer after establishing interest. More frequently than not It means changing the entire behavior of your character, finding reasons to simply just walk away and crow-barring in something your character simply would never do IC because of OOC. And I get it, it's only natural to want to play with your friends, we've all done it. It's when it becomes literally the expected normal response it gets a bit tiresome. Go out into the world and give some other people a chance, maybe you'll enjoy it.

From what I've seen there is a fine line between getting someones consent to be a slave and having said slaves basically control the entire narrative of when they get bought, who they get bought by and everything that happens to them in meantime, else you get OOC complaints.

I played a slave a year or so ago and I saw this from the other perspective. I got bought by someone completely random in game and every five minutes they were checking with me for every little bit of RP they did. "Is this ok? Are you fine with this? I can stop if it's offending you". I had to tell them multiple times, it's RP lets be dynamic & if I do something bad, do what you would naturally do (within the rules of the server), I'm a slave. They never did anything worse than I think stepping on my hand as a punishment, but they were clearly so paranoid they were checking every two seconds so I could literally give them the green light, which honestly really put a downer on what was otherwise good RP.

In my experience somewhere along the line, the memo of "You need consent for slavery from the player" to become a slave got twisted into "I have complete control to dictate exactly how the slavery happens on an OOC level" and you're left almost in an inverse situation where you as the interested party are trying to sell yourself to the slave as a master. Which just gets annoying RPwise. My level 30 Drow slaver shouldn't be having to bend over backwards to trying and sweeten up a deal so a level 5 slave char accepts being my slave over his lvl 5 buddy that he just made that week. Step in and try to do what your char actually would do IC (i.e exert a level of dominance due to their reputation and status and value) and you'll just end up in an OOC mess over it, so it's not even worth the time. Just move on and forget about it.

Slavery being too easy as a system to abuse and not respected enough I think has something to do with this mentality of "I'm being a slave because it only benefits me mechanically and I'll get everything I want out of it" and it's losing a lot of potentially cool and interest RP routes because of it.

In reality it's supposed to be an IC fluid challenge/story, it's not supposed to be the easy route to get yourself access to Andunor, or get around the Outcast token, or get your shiny mechanically advantaged build into your friends group and I know it's difficult to say no to someone saying "Hey i'll just make this character and be your slave" because you don't want to step in and ruin anyone's enjoyment of the game, but there has to be a middle ground where it's not so glaringly obvious whats happening on an OOC level, because current the entire premise of RP slavery is being undermined by OOC.

[xanrael]

Unlike a group or some factions, being purchased as a slave isn't something your character can walk away from IC just because they want to so I believe that it should be a careful choice.

That said I too have seen people try to entice slaves on an pseudo-OOC level with gifts and benefits like they were trying to sell themselves as a romantic partner. Heck I've even played a slave that had a prospective player pull that tactic on them and I kept trying to explain in tells that this approach didn't make sense to me.

My own experience playing slaves was being purchased by people I did not know at all OOC by my own choice. Past the one mentioned in the paragraph above they were the first ones to approach them that had similar timezones. So I don't really follow my own advice but I certainly understand those that are careful.

[Tempedius]

I am unsure why there needs to be a sweeping change to the system as it stands currently. Are there certainly bad actors who only intend to abuse the system in one way or another? Most certainly. However, it seems to me that much of the changes people would like to see could be handled by a change in culture.
Why tolerate former slaves beyond some great benefit to yourself? If they are such a problem then why have the citizens of andunor not yet formed a posse and simply ether removed these individuals whom are of great threat to the status quo of the city's civilization or why then do people directly engage with them in trade and other economic actions?
As for making slavery rp more brutal or hostile? That is again a cultural and IC question. Why brutalize a skilled worker or trusted guard when all these actions will engender is loathing and a want to rise up against the master? Is it to instill fear, because if so there are many better ways to do so, as are there other IC methods of controlling one's property.
All I can see is for the most part there are many options for IC ways to deal with the majority of issues presented and relying on new, and possibly debilitating mechanics to produce the rp that a few individuals would like to see would do more harm than good over all to the server as I see it. We do not need to bother the devs for an issue that seems very fixable by the player base at large.

[TimeAdept]

Bring out the coffins, boys.

[Skibbles]

My response to a 'change in culture' to affect the slavery->outcast system is that this change in culture to fix the problem is going to be little more than roaming bands of people kill-bashing characters until they stop playing. There's just way too many of them - you can't possibly hope to control/stop what is going on right now without being efficient about it, and that efficiency will just as well be horribly anti-fun for everyone.

That the above hasn't happened yet, and people just roll their eyes for the most part, probably speaks to a higher quality of player than it does if the former were true. I for one hope the culture doesn't change to 'fix' this problem.

There's simply better things for people to spend their RP time on and so it is, and will continue to be, ignored.

[versus]

Slaves now require a minor reward to create.

The problem of bad slave RP speaks poorly of the players.
The resolution to the problem of locking slave RP behind a reward speaks poorly of the team.

[Xerah]

Slaves now require a minor reward to create.

The problem of bad slave RP speaks poorly of the players.
The resolution to the problem of locking slave RP behind a reward speaks poorly of the team.

This presumes that you attribute point 1 as the only direct cause of point 2, which is not the case.

[AstralUniverse]

Starting as a slave has always been more mechanically beneficial than other starting locations. You get lots of RP and gear from interaction with higher lvl characters and you, eventually, have portal access to everywhere. It should have always been locked behind award.

[versus]

Slaves now require a minor reward to create.

The problem of bad slave RP speaks poorly of the players.
The resolution to the problem of locking slave RP behind a reward speaks poorly of the team.

This presumes that you attribute point 1 as the only direct cause of point 2, which is not the case.

I should have worded that better, I'll admit; I didn't mean to offend. Since you're a member of the team, lemme take a sec and apologize directly to you for that.
That being said, I still assert it says something about team approach when reward-locking is used as the answer, especially when the reward system is by all accounts flawed.

Starting as a slave has always been more mechanically beneficial than other starting locations. You get lots of RP and gear from interaction with higher lvl characters and you, eventually, have portal access to everywhere. It should have always been locked behind award.

I disagree, I think being surrounded by higher level PCs who universally see you as chattel to be tortured or slayn if it gets out of line is not beneficial, and even if the slave master for some reason showers them with elite gear, they can't even use it because it's all level-locked anyway. I'm not sure what you mean about portals though, cause I've started in Cordor and there's some there.

[AstralUniverse]

I think being surrounded by higher level PCs who universally see you as chattel to be tortured or slayn if it gets out of line is not beneficial

This is in character. Maybe slave RP is not for you. That's fine too. I havent played a slave yet either. *shrugs* Being bullied by people in the same level and status asyou in Cordor because you're not a part of the same beauty salon is also in character for the matter.

And if you dont know about the portal then maybe you should look back at the past few pages of this thread and THEN make up your mind out of an educated stand point. Just my opinion.

[versus]

This is in character. Maybe slave RP is not for you. That's fine too. I havent played a slave yet either. *shrugs* Being bullied by people in the same level and status asyou in Cordor because you're not a part of the same beauty salon is also in character for the matter.

And if you dont know about the portal then maybe you should look back at the past few pages of this thread and THEN make up your mind out of an educated stand point. Just my opinion.

For a guy telling someone to reread the thread, you could kinda benefit from rereading the post you're replying to, because you misunderstood its intent. Also, maybe don't try telling other players what they have or haven't played, it's a bad look for you when you take a big swing and a miss like that.

Back on-topic, there's no benefit to playing a slave. Everyone on the server can get access to portals and find higher level players to give them items. The slave RP in the UD is hit and miss and some might abuse it, yeah, and I'm just here to say that should be handled ICly.

[magistrasa]

there's no benefit to playing a slave. Everyone on the server can get access to portals

Everyone on the server gets access to portals but only slaves and UD races get access to the Hub and immediate proximity to the most loot and XP rich environment on the server. People then roll up slaves to play as Outcasts without respect to the UD's slave culture and grind to epics before dropping their collar with the vast amounts of gold they've accumulated, more or less by simply existing in the UD, and run off to live on the surface without the drawbacks of an Outcast tag, usually ruining their master's reputation and selling UD secrets to cause problems for everyone who was ever not nice to them in the process. Oh, and they get to keep the Hub portal after being freed, so they get full access to both the surface and the Underdark, whereas everyone else on the server is more or less relegated to one or the other.

Please, read the thread, I am literally begging you.

[AstralUniverse]

First you said "being surrounded by higher level PCs who universally see you as chattel to be tortured or slayn...." which is a lot of what slave RP is about and it's in character so I really dont see the problem with that.

Then you said, that gear is level locked anyway, but it's false. it's only true to weapons and maybe few armors. Are you telling me if I give your lvl 3 character 100k gold for their 'training' you wont have easy life?

I heard you still get to keep the portal in the andunour hub as a free man if you had attuned to it while you could, as a slave. I'd argue that alone is a reason to slap an award on this background.

And Magistrasa beat me to it *thumbs up*

[versus]

Is that the meme? When someone disagrees, tell them to reread threads?

None of that is of particular concern for me, not to the extent that i think it should be reward-locked. I acknowledged above there are problems, but the response is disproportionate. If ex-slaves using the hub portal is a problem (haven't seen it myself yet, but okay) then just disallow it.

AstralUniverse, are you intentionally misunderstanding me? I was saying it is good for slaves to have it rough. If you give my slave 100k gold then I'd be able to buy some potions and i would tell you your bad roleplay still isn't a reason to limit other players' options.

[Ork]

I'm in agreement with versus. I would've preferred some kind of punitive action or accountability than the across-the-board restriction for slaves & outcasts.