Epic Sacrifice

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the grim yeeter
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Epic Sacrifice

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:36 pm

The wiki says this:
Also, for every 200.000 gold pieces that your character owns worth of flat gold, inventory value, bank account and gear equipped an extra 1% will be added to each awards of your roll (except the least-valued that you could get), with a maximum of +5% at 1 million gold pieces.
I have heard rumours of the inventory value only counting for 1/2 or even 1/3. Is this true?
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Memelord
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by Memelord » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:59 pm

Yes, it was confirmed by a developer - somewhere, but never documented. Some items aren't counted at all (like ammunition), some are counted only slightly. Some are counted at 1/2 value, very few at full. There's no documentation as to how much each item is "weighed" for the Sacrifice, so your best bet is to just have as much gold as possible. That's not really difficult, though, since you can pretty easy get a million gold in less than a week.

AskRyze
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by AskRyze » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:59 pm

/\ Exactly this. If you know who to sell things to you'll be more than fine.
Irongron wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:33 am
In the end though, eradicating metagaming is as hopeless an ambition as eradicating suggestive descriptions on Elven player characters or the descottishifaction of dwarves

the grim yeeter
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:22 pm

AskRyze wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:59 pm
/\ Exactly this. If you know who to sell things to you'll be more than fine.
That's not true. There are certain items that are of way, way higher value (in their description) than you would get for them at the NPC merchant and that a PC would buy them for. That's why I asked.
Memelord wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:59 pm
Yes, it was confirmed by a developer - somewhere, but never documented. Some items aren't counted at all (like ammunition), some are counted only slightly. Some are counted at 1/2 value, very few at full. There's no documentation as to how much each item is "weighed" for the Sacrifice, so your best bet is to just have as much gold as possible. That's not really difficult, though, since you can pretty easy get a million gold in less than a week.
And could someone maybe confirm this, and possibly tell us where this was mentioned? I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to have this clarified. It'd be nice if the exact calculations could be put on the wiki.
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

AskRyze
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by AskRyze » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:46 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:22 pm
That's not true. There are certain items that are of way, way higher value (in their description) than you would get for them at the NPC merchant and that a PC would buy them for. That's why I asked.
That's part of what I'm saying - Knowing who to sell them to includes knowing what players will buy them.
Irongron wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:33 am
In the end though, eradicating metagaming is as hopeless an ambition as eradicating suggestive descriptions on Elven player characters or the descottishifaction of dwarves

the grim yeeter
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:55 pm

AskRyze wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:46 pm
the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:22 pm
That's not true. There are certain items that are of way, way higher value (in their description) than you would get for them at the NPC merchant and that a PC would buy them for. That's why I asked.
That's part of what I'm saying - Knowing who to sell them to includes knowing what players will buy them.
No player in their right mind will buy a Nomad's ring for 17k, or a Beholder's Eye for 3k (and there are many more examples). And that's what their values are in their descriptions.
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

AskRyze
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by AskRyze » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:02 pm

That's very true - but they'll buy them, and gold is guaranteed 100% value. Until we can see Arelith's source we won't know the exact numbers given how the DMs are rather...opaque?
Irongron wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:33 am
In the end though, eradicating metagaming is as hopeless an ambition as eradicating suggestive descriptions on Elven player characters or the descottishifaction of dwarves

the grim yeeter
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:07 pm

AskRyze wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:02 pm
That's very true - but they'll buy them, and gold is guaranteed 100% value. Until we can see Arelith's source we won't know the exact numbers given how the DMs are rather...opaque?
I honestly think the DMs actually simply don't know the answer.

I think it is very important that the formula behind this is known and written out somewhere, so that players can know for certain they are getting the maximum value out of rolling their character. Rolling an (epic) character is a big thing.
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

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Dreams
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by Dreams » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:21 pm

Wish I knew this before I rolled a bunch of characters... This is the sort of knowledge that should be clear to players.
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DM Sollers
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by DM Sollers » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:39 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:07 pm
AskRyze wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:02 pm
That's very true - but they'll buy them, and gold is guaranteed 100% value. Until we can see Arelith's source we won't know the exact numbers given how the DMs are rather...opaque?
I honestly think the DMs actually simply don't know the answer.
Yeah, no clue. This is dev/coder knowledge, not DM knowledge. We're glorified secretaries at best. That said, agreed with Dreams: this would be nice to know.
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by Seekeepeek » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:51 am

eh... if what Memelord say is the case, they should remove the inventory value all together since it's completely misleading.
so that only bank and inventory gold counts.

i sure didn't get the most out of my epic sacrifices as i went by inventory value a lot... wish i had known this so i had the most out of my attempts.

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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by JubJub » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:18 pm

To make it easy it simply should be only items over x value count. Or if worried that someone is going to craft 50 MD weapons to jack the value of their inventory up, set a max gold value from inventory. I am guessing that's the reason the formula is secret probably is so players can't simply try and fill their inventory with certain items.

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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by Durvayas » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:26 pm

There is a lot opaque about the system. Like does it only count if its being worn or is in inventory fine? does banked gold count as half? Does gold in the inventory count as half? Do artefacts have to be equipped to count for their bonus? etc. etc. etc.

Some transparency on this mechanic would be superb. Otherwise you're likely to just see people waiting until they have 2 million gold before rolling instead of 1 million, which defeats the purpose of the incentive entirely.
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Sartain
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by Sartain » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:33 pm

Durvayas wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:26 pm
There is a lot opaque about the system. Like does it only count if its being worn or is in inventory fine? does banked gold count as half? Does gold in the inventory count as half? Do artefacts have to be equipped to count for their bonus? etc. etc. etc.

Some transparency on this mechanic would be superb. Otherwise you're likely to just see people waiting until they have 2 million gold before rolling instead of 1 million, which defeats the purpose of the incentive entirely.
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by the grim yeeter » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:26 pm

Durvayas wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:26 pm
[...] Like does it only count if its being worn or is in inventory fine? [...] Do artefacts have to be equipped to count for their bonus? [...]
The above two questions are answered by the wiki:
http://wiki.arelith.com/Epic_Sacrifice wrote:Also, for every 200.000 gold pieces that your character owns worth of flat gold, inventory value, bank account and gear equipped an extra 1% will be added to each awards of your roll (except the least-valued that you could get), with a maximum of +5% at 1 million gold pieces.
So inventory is fine. According to the wiki, items do not have to be equipped. As long as they are in your inventory, it is sufficient.
Durvayas wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:26 pm
Some transparency on this mechanic would be superb. Otherwise you're likely to just see people waiting until they have 2 million gold before rolling instead of 1 million, which defeats the purpose of the incentive entirely.
And the potential issue with this is that players might keep playing their characters solely for the sake of grinding that gold together, needlessly, because they think they haven't reached the required amount of (effective) gold yet while they actually already have. Many players would likely not enjoy doing this, and it isn't exactly beneficial to the overall roleplay experience on the server either.
Jub Jub wrote: To make it easy it simply should be only items over x value count. Or if worried that someone is going to craft 50 MD weapons to jack the value of their inventory up, set a max gold value from inventory. I am guessing that's the reason the formula is secret probably is so players can't simply try and fill their inventory with certain items.
But then that is a fault of the system, rather than the players themselves. This system should not be secret at all, for abovementioned reason and the fact that rolling a character is not something you do every day. Some people have put a lot of time and effort into developing their character. Full transparency on how their sacrifice is rewarded is absolutely necessary. If that requires having to construct a formula to prevent the potential issues you mention, then that should be done, instead of (deliberately) keeping it as vague as it is now.
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by Xerah » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:46 pm

It was decided that having a mostly non-transparent system is what is desired out of this system. I can understand both sides of this, but I won't go into it any further than that.

Clearing a few things up, speaking in general terms:

Inventory value does count. (percentage value)
Equipment value does count. (percentage value)
There is a max item value limit.
Bank account value does count as if it was on your character. (full value)
All items but ammunition does count.
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:23 pm

Grind to a mil and lock it in. Gotcha.

the grim yeeter
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:02 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:46 pm
It was decided that having a mostly non-transparent system is what is desired out of this system. I can understand both sides of this, but I won't go into it any further than that.

Clearing a few things up, speaking in general terms:

Inventory value does count. (percentage value)
Equipment value does count. (percentage value)
There is a max item value limit.
Bank account value does count as if it was on your character. (full value)
All items but ammunition does count.
Thank you for your response. While it is ultimately a decision of the team as to how the system should work, I find it unsatisfying to hear that the reasons behind the decision won't even be provided to the playerbase, especially because the majority of us don't appreciate the system in its current form: all of the players (and a DM) who replied to this thread have either in some way stated their discontent with how it works now, or said that they think this system requires more transparency. Can I at least ask why exactly an explanation is not given? Because I can not think of a reason why this has to remain so opaque. It seems unfair.
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by Xerah » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:11 pm

Typically, the reasons for this are developers don’t want the system to be “gamed”. The roll is meant to be a pat on the back as a job well done (in theory) in playing your character not I need to do X and Y to maximize chances (which is natural for most of us gamers). It’s unfortunate that any info on this is out there because it blurs things which is why I can see your side of things as well.

Any further clarity would need to be given my the Admin team.
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:33 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:11 pm
Typically, the reasons for this are developers don’t want the system to be “gamed”. The roll is meant to be a pat on the back as a job well done (in theory) in playing your character not I need to do X and Y to maximize chances (which is natural for most of us gamers). It’s unfortunate that any info on this is out there because it blurs things which is why I can see your side of things as well.

Any further clarity would need to be given my the Admin team.
The issue here is that the system is already being gamed. Namely, people are grinding to 1 million before rolling their characters. There is no way you are going to prevent this. If you don't want people to maximize their chances, then the answer is simple: do not add such a system. The only difference between keeping the system's mechanics secret and fully transparent is that in the former case people will actually spend an unnecessary amount of time grinding, which, as I implied before, only decreases the amount of time actually spent on roleplaying. As you can discern from the other players' posts in this thread, it is what is happening currently. Players grind their way to 1 million to maximize their chances.

It is not unfortunate that there is information out there. No, it is unfortunate that not all information is out there. The blurring is not a result of information being out there. The blurring is caused by information being withheld from us.
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by Xerah » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:53 pm

We will agree to disagree.
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by JubJub » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:20 pm

Sadly the whole reward system is too easy to game, it's simply too easy to get to 26 and roll again and again.

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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:44 pm

JubJub wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:20 pm
Sadly the whole reward system is too easy to game, it's simply too easy to get to 26 and roll again and again.
Maybe it's just me, but I've yet to get a character to epic levels without coming to love the character and getting attached, making it harder for me to roll her.

Not only that, I've only ever gotten 2 characters that high in my +10 years here.
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by the grim yeeter » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:28 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:44 pm
JubJub wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:20 pm
Sadly the whole reward system is too easy to game, it's simply too easy to get to 26 and roll again and again.
Maybe it's just me, but I've yet to get a character to epic levels without coming to love the character and getting attached, making it harder for me to roll her.

Not only that, I've only ever gotten 2 characters that high in my +10 years here.
You belong to a minority in that case.
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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Epic Sacrifice

Post by Tarkus the dog » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:26 am

I don't really appreciate being lied to. I'll remember this the next time I roll my characters.

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