True Flame Spell Selection

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Skarain
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Skarain » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:00 am

Trueflame is 2 apr and no haste. Hitting with a correct tool deals normal damage and +25 invisible damage. That is 50-60 damage per round. An autoquickened TF deals comparable or greater damage faster with spells. People do not want to wait, even if you have 5% greater chance per hit to get bonus resources.

That's my take on it.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kenji » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:12 pm

The gathering tools currently don't give the 5% additive bonus chance for the resource to drop. It appears there was an intention to do so in the scripts but it is not fully implemented.

But let's indulge the thought for a bit -
For resources like coal that has a 90% drop chance:
A TF wielding the tools could potentially hit 249 damage on a node and then surpass 26 damage required to get the extra tick, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. The uncertainty here in melee attacks isn't in the TF's favor compared to calculated spell damage that a TF can easily achieve.

So we're looking at:
0.95 * 10 = 9.5 resources per node (didn't go past the 275 threshold)
0.95 * 11 = 10.45 resources per node (went past the 275 threshold)
or
0.9 * 12 = 10.8 resources per node (300+ threshold via scorching ray + ice dagger combo)
0.9 * 13 = 11.7 resources per node (325+ threshold via cone of cold + ice dagger combo)

On average the TF will gain more with the Scorching Ray combo or gets better with the Cone of Cold combo.

Here's the comprehensive spreadsheet with the average drop rate:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

For these resources, it starts to even out at a 20% base drop chance (assuming the wielder is meek and doesn't attack as often, a TF, for example)

For resources such as adamantine, it'll be better if one uses the resource tools if the 5% bonus chance is present, which it currently isn't.

Another thing to keep in mind is that attacking with TF's BAB (2 or 3 depending on if the character had full BAB class dips such as hex, BG, or paladin pre-epic), let's assume 3 APR, but 4 with dual-wield.

Average of 36 damage per attack, which results in roughly around 2 rounds per node clear time.

Auto-quicken Scorching Ray combo takes 2 rounds per node clear time.

AQ Cone of Cold combo takes 3 rounds per node clear time. (or 1.5 rounds for 10 ticks instead of 13)

The different clear times will result in what economists call an "Opportunity Cost" where the longer one dwells in an area, the slower the gatherer gets to the next node. And that could mean a couple of things: the next node being cleared by others, the overall clear time takes longer to complete, etc.

I'd say there is maybe some merit to using the resource tools iff the 5% bonus chance is present, which, again, it currently isn't, and the TF bothers buffing up the strength score with zoo spell, casting elemental weapon on the gathering tools and dual-wield said tools.

P.S.: "iff" stands for "if and only if"
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Amnesy » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:44 am

Hello,

When I look at my notes about TF and evocation spells, I had a few comments on my own:

Cloud of Bewilderment:
Should be conjuration by SRD.

Sound Lance:
By RAW sonic damage should be 1 dice lower than other elemental spells of the same level. Here it is one dice higher and party-friendly. It should sit on the 5th tier. The SRD version is a single target, not an AOE.

Wall of Fire/Ice:
Empower makes it unpleasant, as it should only empower 2d6, not the whole dmg (by the book). Other than that, stacking walls should be looked into.

Ice Storm:
It should hold save vs movement decrease, but on Arelith it is compensated with more DMG, which is fine since Warlocks use it as well.

Darkbolt:
TF could have +15 Dart removed from AB bonus, preferably by capping the max bonus from items to +5.
Perhaps it should scale slower (like per 3CL, not 2CL), by the time one can cast it, it is already at 70-80% scaling.

Delayed Blast Fireball:
This is a weird one, as I do not use it on my TFs and I haven't seen it being used. Perhaps there is some hidden gem to it?

Incendiary Cloud:
Should be conjuration by SRD.

Sunburst:
According to SRD: Should work also on fungi, mold, oozes, and slimes as if they were undead, and should dispel the darkness in the area of effect.

Iceberg:
I do not know if it is just me, but the spell VFS makes NWN engine and FPS go BRRRRR, perhaps VFX could be updated to be less hardcore - nevertheless, I like it as it is now.

Greater Ruin
Hellball
Evocation should not hit with positive, negative, divine, etc.
Perhaps it could be re-adjusted and placed as magic.
Current: Lysrithien.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kenji » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:29 pm

Dreams wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:42 am
I think spells really should at least have a toggle for whether you want them to be area destroying or not. Some spells damage fixtures, some spells don't. All spells that normally would SHOULD do this, as it is a risk of casting that particular spell. If that's too much of an inconvenience for people to learn the placement of spells, then having a toggle could help a great deal.
Feel free to post this to the suggestion box when it's open. For now, let's keep the discussion focused on TFs rather than generic spell effects that affect the entire spellcasting community rather than TFs alone.
Amnesy wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:44 am
While I agree with a few of these, the majority of these should be in the feedback section.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss which available spells to TF should be picked for what purpose and what to do with said spells rather than turning it into a suggestion thread on what to do to the spells.

Except this one:
Amnesy wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:44 am
Delayed Blast Fireball:
This is a weird one, as I do not use it on my TFs and I haven't seen it being used. Perhaps there is some hidden gem to it?
DBF is indeed a hidden gem and often underutilized. It's also borderline broken when stacked with TF's infinicast, making the spell ideal to set up kill zones for PvE purposes and a zoning tool for PvP purposes, if the TF is allowed time to set it up.

It's only tricky because communication with party members is key when it comes to setting up DBF. Setting up multiple DBF to one-shot bosses can be a crucial tool for solo TFs.

It's even more powerful with Empower Spells meta magic feat and is one of the reasons why Empower Spells is just as good a pick as Maximize Spells for TFs.
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Nitro » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:09 am

Thing is, why would you ever set up DBF killzones when you could set up Wall of Fire killzones? The average damage is lower but the wall is saveless so that equalizes the damage and on top of that has no friendly fire (or loot destruction) and lasts longer which allows for easier stacking.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kenji » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:55 am

Take the barbarian king writ for example, that's not something you want to be kiting around on a TF with the wall of fire, but want to kill it as soon as possible to minimize its damage dealt to you as a TF.
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chris a gogo
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by chris a gogo » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:16 am

I can see DBF having a use but as you can lay a field of fire right across the screen and watch every spawn run to there deaths as they charge you rather than just one I don't think it's the most effective choice, but i can see it as a viable option dropping grasping hand and taking DBF in it's place is an option that wouldn't detract much from a character.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kenji » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:18 pm

There's a limit to which how many Wall of Fire can be stacked. In this case, it'll be pre-epic TF that's either manually quickening or empowering the wall of fire in this case. Let's assume one lasts 9 rounds, if manually quickened, it means 18 walls of fire (perfect conditions and all that) as the first one cast expires immediately after pulling the mob. If the TF is then kiting around, two walls of fire will diminish per round over time and they'll deal 2d6 + 18 per wall of fire, that's an average of 400 damage and 50 less each round as opposed to 95 (half if saved) average damage per empowered DBF, which also stacks from 8 to 9 up to twice that amount if hasted.

While the TF will technically deal more damage with walls of fire over 8 rounds (a lot can happen in that time), DBF will be able to deal from 475 (if all are, unluckily enough, ref saved) all the way up to 1615 damage within 1 round or 2 if aptly placed without requiring the TFs to kite as much. Hence why it can be the ideal spell to deal with high DPS bosses that the TF doesn't want prolonged exposure to.

The downside is DBF will eat up around 10 to 20 components. But personally, I'd pick safety over hassle if I knew the boss mobs aren't high on ref save and have evasion. It's not something to be done every pull, of course, but an option for TFs for encounters that have higher stakes.
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Nitro » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:25 pm

DBF also has the downside of dealing with groups poorly, as unlucky pathfinding can see a single enemy (other than your intended target) setting off your carefully set trap.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:09 am

You only "need" 3 stacked empowered fire/ice walls for the vast majority of enemies you'll be fighting at level 30. Beyond that is overkill, and a level 16 true flame can solo moradel(bel?) the vampire . Very easily. She won't even hit you once if you do it right. Stacking higher than 4 empowered firewalls is just an exercise in wasting your own time
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by -XXX- » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:00 am

Wall spells shouldn't be stackable.
Most AoE's can't be stacked, why is this one still an exception?

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Nitro » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:14 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:00 am
Wall spells shouldn't be stackable.
Most AoE's can't be stacked, why is this one still an exception?
While I agree, this is not the topic to discuss balance changes. Please direct those to the suggestions or feedback forums.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kalos » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:24 am

So I see the list of spells to start this post, but as a rather new Trueflame (my 1st) is at lvl 15, what would be recommended as "must have" for TF spells?

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by chris a gogo » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:48 pm

Mordenkens sword as it's the only summon you can have(you stop using persistant blade once you get this) and it's magic immune meaning it can tank things while you throw area effect spells.
Wall of fire. This is your best defensive spell as you can cast 3-4 of them before starting the fight and then anything charging into melee range will have to run over them taking damage that could well kill them.
There has been some debate here about dark bolt but i stand by it being one of a true flames best disabling spells as it can hit up to seven targets dazing them for a round, the damage off it is pretty good also against a single target plus it can target objects which most evocation spells don't.
Ice Storm. The best rogue killer as it ignores evasion and does 90 damage maximised to everything in it's AoE.
IGMS for clear reasons of it being the best damage spell in the game vs single targets.
Personally i love Sunburst incendairy cloud hits an area for more damage and inflicts blind while they are in it, but Sunburst inflicts permanent blindness on a failed reflex save this means the spawns don't just walk out of the AoE like they do with Incen Cloud but have to stand around blind while you kill them.
Scorching Ray i use for mining it's not the most optimal option but does the job well enough.

Bigbys line of spells they are all fairly good but forceful hand is very good and doesn't cost spell components to use i use the others a lot in groups when a big target is an issue for them being able to stun/disable targets is a huge help even better than raw damage in a lot of cases.

Great Thunderclap.
This is the single best CC spell in the game every target has to make three saves and you can stand there spamming it while hasted every round and hurl a damage spell as well.
Elemental Shield.for it's 50% damage reduction to fire and frost.

Everything else is optional. the spells i use are Great Thunderclap, Icestrom, Firebrand, IGMS, Elemental/lightings shield, Mordenkens sword, Scorching ray, Sunburst, Incendiary cloud, Wall of fire/ice, various Bigbies depending on target, Darkbolt for CC and direct damage on objects, and once in a blue moon i cast fireball when trolls are to far away to kill with fire brand.
Every once in awhile when i want to be different i cast meteor swarm or something different but ultimately it's just for flair the spells i listed are IMO the best ones to use.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Kenji » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:38 am

Airport Proximity Jesus wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:09 am
You only "need" 3 stacked empowered fire/ice walls for the vast majority of enemies you'll be fighting at level 30. Beyond that is overkill, and a level 16 true flame can solo moradel(bel?) the vampire . Very easily. She won't even hit you once if you do it right. Stacking higher than 4 empowered firewalls is just an exercise in wasting your own time
So you've tried it in one scenario (which also happens to be undead) and your conclusion is it'd be the same for everything else.

This mindset is a waste of everyone's time if you've come to posit your opinion without an open mind.
Nitro wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:25 pm
DBF also has the downside of dealing with groups poorly, as unlucky pathfinding can see a single enemy (other than your intended target) setting off your carefully set trap.
This much is true, the detection for DBF is very finicky and the Wall spells are consistent and good at dealing with large numbers of mobs and choke points.
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Bunnysmack » Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:14 pm

Yes and no. It depends on how much overkill damage the magical spell is doing to the node. Seeing as resource rolls are made per 25 damage dealt, the 90 damage done from a maximized cone of cold at a low-hp resource node can net as much as three extra rolls.

Likely still more efficient to use specialized tools on stuff that has low % rolls per tick, like ruby, emerald, diamond, adamantine, gold, etcetera, but this also has the benefit of limiting pack weight and pack space by NOT carrying a mining pick/Gem hammer.
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:45 am

Kenji wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:38 am
Airport Proximity Jesus wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:09 am
You only "need" 3 stacked empowered fire/ice walls for the vast majority of enemies you'll be fighting at level 30. Beyond that is overkill, and a level 16 true flame can solo moradel(bel?) the vampire . Very easily. She won't even hit you once if you do it right. Stacking higher than 4 empowered firewalls is just an exercise in wasting your own time
So you've tried it in one scenario (which also happens to be undead) and your conclusion is it'd be the same for everything else.

This mindset is a waste of everyone's time if you've come to posit your opinion without an open mind.
Nitro wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:25 pm
DBF also has the downside of dealing with groups poorly, as unlucky pathfinding can see a single enemy (other than your intended target) setting off your carefully set trap.
This much is true, the detection for DBF is very finicky and the Wall spells are consistent and good at dealing with large numbers of mobs and choke points.
No, no no no. Thats an example of a "hard" fight that's completely trivialized by TF, and I've played TF enough to know how much is and isn't overkill for keeping yourself alive when you inevitably aggro enemies. For the vast majority of mob fights, 3-4 empowered fire/ice walls is enough.

People are talking about how ridiculously OP doing a certain thing that TF can do is when it's a waste of time to stack more than that many walls- and are also leaving out how wet paper weak a TF actually is. TF can do some ridiculous numbers, but you're constantly at risk of 4+ mobs b lining for your 22 ac tops(if you're a ranger TF, of course) tasty tasty hitbox. TFs are also terrible in pvp to my experience and from what other people have told me. The things they CAN do looks impressive, but they're extremely stifled by how one-trick-pony they are
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Nitro » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:11 am

They're amazing in PvP if left alone. That's a big if however since a true flame is almost always the priority #1 target as soon as someone realizes you are one. Then you're likely going to die because of a critical lack of survival mechanics.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Bunnysmack » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:31 pm

Anything that can spam endless layered and scattered persistent AOE effects can be used to incredible tactical benefit. Just don't place the kill walls/clouds on-or-around transitions, and a team fight TF can really shape where battle ends up occurring.

Yeah, gust of wind can blow away a lot of what they place, but not everything in the arsenal, and if you have time to prepare in advance, it forces opponents to stop and remember to gust before they can charge.
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:21 pm

Nitro wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:11 am
They're amazing in PvP if left alone. That's a big if however since a true flame is almost always the priority #1 target as soon as someone realizes you are one. Then you're likely going to die because of a critical lack of survival mechanics.
Bunnysmack wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:31 pm
Anything that can spam endless layered and scattered persistent AOE effects can be used to incredible tactical benefit. Just don't place the kill walls/clouds on-or-around transitions, and a team fight TF can really shape where battle ends up occurring.

Yeah, gust of wind can blow away a lot of what they place, but not everything in the arsenal, and if you have time to prepare in advance, it forces opponents to stop and remember to gust before they can charge.


You're also not allowed to stack fire/ice walls in pvp. You have to individually spread them out as a courtesy thing and you can be punished for stacking them in pvp.

Also yea that's the stipulation- if anyone realizes you're a TF you're just dead on the spot and most people will. TF as a build is also fairly uncommon because of how jenky they are to seriously play, and you'll usually only see 1-2 around at any given time. Everyone will want you in their party for dungeon content, but also, everyone will now know you're the TF thats aligned with x faction, so a lot of people will go into fights with the knowledge that you're the duder to smack
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Bunnysmack » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:29 pm

Airport Proximity Jesus wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:21 pm
You're also not allowed to stack fire/ice walls in pvp. You have to individually spread them out as a courtesy thing and you can be punished for stacking them in pvp.
Wait, really? Huh. I mean, I haven't actually played as a TF before (and no other arcane caster I've played ever had enough spell slots to properly make use of such a tactic in PvP), but I've yet to hear that ruling anywhere.

Seems a weird rule, considering an area dispel can immediately invalidate all the set up, and the only caster capable of pulling it off is the glassiest of vulnerable cannons.

However, if that is actually the opinion of the team, I'll make sure TFs I play with in the future know about that rule.
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Nitro » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:48 pm

Airport Proximity Jesus wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:21 pm
You're also not allowed to stack fire/ice walls in pvp. You have to individually spread them out as a courtesy thing and you can be punished for stacking them in pvp.
Until I'm told by a DM or pointed to a public post where they clarify this I'm going to presume that's a shadow rule, seeing as the wall spells were deliberately excluded from the changes made to other persistent AOE's and stacking.

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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Bunnysmack » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:57 pm

It's kind of like saying you can't collaboratively work with several casters to overlap the same persistent AOE spell, which the wiki implies is not just an available tactic, but an encouraged one if people can manage to pull it off.
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Airport Proximity Jesus » Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:37 am

Bunnysmack wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:29 pm
Airport Proximity Jesus wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:21 pm
You're also not allowed to stack fire/ice walls in pvp. You have to individually spread them out as a courtesy thing and you can be punished for stacking them in pvp.
Wait, really? Huh. I mean, I haven't actually played as a TF before (and no other arcane caster I've played ever had enough spell slots to properly make use of such a tactic in PvP), but I've yet to hear that ruling anywhere.

Seems a weird rule, considering an area dispel can immediately invalidate all the set up, and the only caster capable of pulling it off is the glassiest of vulnerable cannons.

However, if that is actually the opinion of the team, I'll make sure TFs I play with in the future know about that rule.
I suppose it wasn't a DM who told me that, but it sounds about right to me. It's very deceptive and a lot of builds can just walk over one fire wall. It's got to do with the trap stacking rule, too
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Re: True Flame Spell Selection

Post by Nitro » Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:44 pm

Trap stacking is also mechanically restricted since you can only trigger one trap at a time, and not a ruling or rule.

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