Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:27 am

LurkingShadow wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:42 pm

I see. As you know, my first language is not English. I have often put antagonist and villian in the same category. But this is a simplification. This is a new perspective. I ponder about other examples. Antagonistic ally is suddenly something I find to be a bit interesting in a way. It means you can have someone disagreeing with you and seen as an opponent but you still have a common enemy. Bit like capitalism and communism in the second world war.

This is a way I like handling things in Andunor. I get a lot more hostile the further away from my character somebody lives ICly; so if it's my drow vs. a cordorian? A little civil convo-- but if they get uppity; blam.

But drow-to-drow or Underdarker? My character tries a LOT to philosophize. Antagonize certain types through words and opposition to goals, rather than violence.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by LurkingShadow » Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:33 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:27 am
LurkingShadow wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:42 pm

I see. As you know, my first language is not English. I have often put antagonist and villian in the same category. But this is a simplification. This is a new perspective. I ponder about other examples. Antagonistic ally is suddenly something I find to be a bit interesting in a way. It means you can have someone disagreeing with you and seen as an opponent but you still have a common enemy. Bit like capitalism and communism in the second world war.

This is a way I like handling things in Andunor. I get a lot more hostile the further away from my character somebody lives ICly; so if it's my drow vs. a cordorian? A little civil convo-- but if they get uppity; blam.

But drow-to-drow or Underdarker? My character tries a LOT to philosophize. Antagonize certain types through words and opposition to goals, rather than violence.

That is a interesting concept! I like it. Just "These people, I don't like them but we have a similar goal and have to share this place".


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:53 pm

I had some time this afternoon, so I skimmed through this thread, and something stood out to me. These sorts of debates always come down to one of two sides, pro pvp vs anti pvp, but like the big world outside that this community is a microcosm of its often more nuanced than that for the majority of folks.

For example, I know dudes that have played this game for 20 years and could in theory be some of the scariest players this server has ever seen in regard to pvp. But they actually never get into pvp, not because they are pvp adverse even though they are often called that when they offer an opinion about the state of pvp on arelith, but because it often accomplishes nothing save making their character appear more and more cartoonish over time.

Does that mean they hate pvp? No, because again if they went that route they would probably murder all but the most seasoned pvpers on the server. But while they certainly have stuck around NwN for something, it's not to prove how good they are mechanically at the game. Being mechanically good at nwn was impressive 20 years ago, but I doubt there are any Tick Tock videos of someone showing off their skills in this game, and if there is I doubt it has many views.

So why do the above two paragraphs matter to the topic at hand? Because those same people are the most likely to make good antagonists. They have the wherewithal to hold their own if pvp breaks out, and they have played the game for 20 long years for a reason, a reason that one can deduce if they follow my logic is to tell stories. They are the type of folks that inspire others through their (sometimes) brilliant play, thus ensuring that the tradition of days past on nwn rp servers continues. They are the type of people that will not go for the fast kill, instead taking time to let a story develop even if that means that they give up a clear advantage to be at a disadvantage tomorrow.

Unfortunately, these types of players have fallen into three categories in my time here. Won't even try Arelith, or if they do it never lasts more than a day or two. Have tried arelith, got frustrated with x or y, and left. Or found a niche in Arelith, but avoid pvp and doing antagonistic things because regardless of the situation around it that's going to consume their in-game time for the next couple of months, often fighting folks you killed a few days before again and again...and again. I'm a bit of a unicorn in this aspect, because while I to get frustrated when things break down into the absurd, I always come back after a long break ready to attempt to catch lightning in a bottle (A story worth telling) one more time. I'm sure there are more like me in that sense.

So, what's the answer? I can't say for certain. I have theories, but they would make this post 5 times as long as it already is. But I do think a good first step would be to allow as a community honest debate, instead of just going to your team immediately and accusing someone of hating pvp/loving pvp too much. Everyone here loves the game after all and wants it to be the best version of itself it can be. It would be silly to spend as much time as we do in debate about it if that weren't true.

As a side note, I just want to say that there are some fantastic players in the community that make spectacular antagonist characters, and many of them have been mainstays of Arelith for a long time. I just don't want to make it sound like I am ignoring that those folks exist, because they do. This is just a generalization of how things are, and why I personally think there could be so much more.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by UilliamNebel » Mon May 01, 2023 2:08 am

Just some statements for how I see the topic in no particular order.

PvP is inherently not fair, unless all you play for and build for is PvP. Just what it is, and it ends up going into sophistry to try and demonstrate otherwise.

If you want others to be your 'content', i.e. evil character's victims, well that is fine, but it ultimately is not a position other than a preference for what is enjoyable RP, a value decision of one individual, and little else.

Automatically assuming you bring something that will always ultimately be a positive, for someone else's RP experience, if they are mature and let you as you play an evil character that non consensually has far longer and lasting consequences for a character than NPCs in the PvE side of things, is also as problematic for things as the course of ignoring or non sequitur actions to avoid RPing it ever happening by the other side of it.

Most people, when confronted by actual maleficence, in the moment, act very, very, disassociated, and by raw instinct look to exit the situation as quietly, non-confrontational, and by the path they see as the least risk. Expecting some manner of outward emotional response from them is just not how such situations work. Sure, in a written story with one author controlling all the emotions and reactions, we expect it. But ultimately RP will more so elicit a more primal human and genuine re-action and be in line with what would likely be most people's real-world response.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Perplexia » Mon May 01, 2023 2:28 am

UilliamNebel wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:08 am

Most people, when confronted by actual maleficence, in the moment, act very, very, disassociated, and by raw instinct look to exit the situation as quietly, non-confrontational, and by the path they see as the least risk. Expecting some manner of outward emotional response from them is just not how such situations work. Sure, in a written story with one author controlling all the emotions and reactions, we expect it. But ultimately RP will more so elicit a more primal human and genuine re-action and be in line with what would likely be most people's real-world response.

if your characters are responding to danger the same way you would in real life, are you really roleplaying?

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by UilliamNebel » Mon May 01, 2023 2:47 am

Perplexia wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:28 am

if your characters are responding to danger the same way you would in real life, are you really roleplaying?

If you are a human, in the real world, is roleplaying complete divorced from that reality? Stress and emotional response inoculation is a tricky, and not guaranteed thing. Add in issues of emotional investment, regardless how much majority of people make a good faith investment to avoid, it gets even trickier.

So no, by what seems a very stern definition for what is happening when a person roleplays, they likely are not RPing when they have reactions in game, because they are a real human being in the real world.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon May 01, 2023 3:38 am

UilliamNebel wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:47 am
Perplexia wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:28 am

if your characters are responding to danger the same way you would in real life, are you really roleplaying?

If you are a human, in the real world, is roleplaying complete divorced from that reality? Stress and emotional response inoculation is a tricky, and not guaranteed thing. Add in issues of emotional investment, regardless how much majority of people make a good faith investment to avoid, it gets even trickier.

So no, by what seems a very stern definition for what is happening when a person roleplays, they likely are not RPing when they have reactions in game, because they are a real human being in the real world.

It's the art of tethering the line between being too invested into the emotions and being too detached from your character. It's a never-ending balancing act, one we become better at the more we practice it.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Khorvale » Tue May 02, 2023 7:02 am

Perplexia wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:28 am
UilliamNebel wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:08 am

Most people, when confronted by actual maleficence, in the moment, act very, very, disassociated, and by raw instinct look to exit the situation as quietly, non-confrontational, and by the path they see as the least risk. Expecting some manner of outward emotional response from them is just not how such situations work. Sure, in a written story with one author controlling all the emotions and reactions, we expect it. But ultimately RP will more so elicit a more primal human and genuine re-action and be in line with what would likely be most people's real-world response.

if your characters are responding to danger the same way you would in real life, are you really roleplaying?

I'm sure you didn't mean to but that really comes off as rather gate-keeping. People tend to put a fair amount of themselves in their characters, consciously or not, which is also part of why modern roleplaying often has a number of initiatives and mechanics for debriefing, delineating what is and isn't appropriate for a table or LARP, hard and soft boundaries and so on. If you think people don't do that, maybe you might want to examine your own way of roleplaying a bit more indepth. I often find that the people who think they're completely disassociated from their character are the ones who risk actually having troublesome experiences because they're unprepared for when they're inevitably triggered. And I can only imagine it becomes a lot more risky in a PW environment where there are generally little to no "time-outs" available, a compared to playing in a shared physical space.

Personally I recognize what UilliamNebel is describing, being a brutal meanie is very much unlike my real world personality so if I'm not prepared for an encounter I sometimes default to my natural behaviour which, believe it or not, tends to be very conflict-resolution oriented :D


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Perplexia » Tue May 02, 2023 11:41 am

Khorvale wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 7:02 am

I'm sure you didn't mean to but that really comes off as rather gate-keeping. People tend to put a fair amount of themselves in their characters, consciously or not, which is also part of why modern roleplaying often has a number of initiatives and mechanics for debriefing, delineating what is and isn't appropriate for a table or LARP, hard and soft boundaries and so on. If you think people don't do that, maybe you might want to examine your own way of roleplaying a bit more indepth. I often find that the people who think they're completely disassociated from their character are the ones who risk actually having troublesome experiences because they're unprepared for when they're inevitably triggered. And I can only imagine it becomes a lot more risky in a PW environment where there are generally little to no "time-outs" available, a compared to playing in a shared physical space.

Personally I recognize what UilliamNebel is describing, being a brutal meanie is very much unlike my real world personality so if I'm not prepared for an encounter I sometimes default to my natural behaviour which, believe it or not, tends to be very conflict-resolution oriented :D

i totally understand if people can't help being emotionally attached to their characters (it happens to me as well!)

my point was merely that silently walking away or reflexively twisting a portal lens, and consistently avoiding conflict whenever it happens, just isn't conducive to an enjoyable roleplay experience

conflict resolution on the other hand is totally fine, because you're still engaging with the other player in some capacity. hell, if you made the effort to emote keeping your head down and picking up the pace, even if it was meant to declare an OOC desire to avoid the interaction, i'd see no problem with it

i just don't see what people are so afraid of that they feel the need to escape the situation so urgently?

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Khorvale » Tue May 02, 2023 1:36 pm

Perplexia wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 11:41 am
Khorvale wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 7:02 am

I'm sure you didn't mean to but that really comes off as rather gate-keeping. People tend to put a fair amount of themselves in their characters, consciously or not, which is also part of why modern roleplaying often has a number of initiatives and mechanics for debriefing, delineating what is and isn't appropriate for a table or LARP, hard and soft boundaries and so on. If you think people don't do that, maybe you might want to examine your own way of roleplaying a bit more indepth. I often find that the people who think they're completely disassociated from their character are the ones who risk actually having troublesome experiences because they're unprepared for when they're inevitably triggered. And I can only imagine it becomes a lot more risky in a PW environment where there are generally little to no "time-outs" available, a compared to playing in a shared physical space.

Personally I recognize what UilliamNebel is describing, being a brutal meanie is very much unlike my real world personality so if I'm not prepared for an encounter I sometimes default to my natural behaviour which, believe it or not, tends to be very conflict-resolution oriented :D

i totally understand if people can't help being emotionally attached to their characters (it happens to me as well!)

my point was merely that silently walking away or reflexively twisting a portal lens, and consistently avoiding conflict whenever it happens, just isn't conducive to an enjoyable roleplay experience

conflict resolution on the other hand is totally fine, because you're still engaging with the other player in some capacity. hell, if you made the effort to emote keeping your head down and picking up the pace, even if it was meant to declare an OOC desire to avoid the interaction, i'd see no problem with it

i just don't see what people are so afraid of that they feel the need to escape the situation so urgently?

My take: The embarassment of "losing", the social stigma of not being the winner, especially if you initiated.
I have no idea about Arelith specifically because I have neither the time (zone) nor inclination to get heavily involved with the established, long-term player base, but my general experience with PWs is that often the social environment tends to be dominated by people who 'carry their emotions on their sleeves', so a character defeat very quickly becomes a personal defeat too. And as far as I can tell from second hand stories Arelith culture isn't different in that regard.
Games like this, the penultimate escapist power fantasy where you can be whatever you can't or won't in real life tend to attract a certain crowd that is more often than not I think, a bit more on the sensitive side. You know, you basic roleplayer really :)


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by UilliamNebel » Tue May 02, 2023 3:12 pm

Perplexia wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 11:41 am

i just don't see what people are so afraid of that they feel the need to escape the situation so urgently?

Therein lies a value judgement.

It is saying one can judge that another is no longer roleplaying, or doing it 'wrong', in that they are having a character's reason win out over emotion, to do the smart thing and exit a hostile situation where the character perceives too many unknowns or acceptable odds, even risk to reward ratio.

Arelith is a place filled with Infernalist, betrayers, and evil as an objective reality that is capable of wielding magic that can destroy or enslave a soul. It is not the sort of world lending itself to high fantasy heroism as Lord of the Rings, to facilitate a narrative in that genre's direction.

A character staying, to make pay off on another's narrative expectation is more "writer's" sense for penning a story, not "participant's" sense in roleplay to mutually weave brief scenes of character interactions, over a longer narrative. Longer narratives, without a good deal of mutual buy in to 'let it go where it goes' to meet a narrative expectation just cannot be done without serendipity (A rarity for sure) from my experience.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Eira » Tue May 02, 2023 3:22 pm

There is a difference between "acting as someone would in real life to a threat", which would be with fear, terror, self preservation, perhaps hostility, disgust, or defensiveness, and "simply turning the back and walking away from a threat."

One is roleplaying and one, which unless I am mistaken is the point of this whole thread, is semi-OOC just disengaging completely without even acknowledging the other.

And before someone mentions it, note I said walking away, not running away.

Sure, if a potential threat is so below your character's concern that they would scoff at it... then why not write that they scoff at it?

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by IAmSwampFoot » Tue May 23, 2023 7:55 am

I think, if you've built your character as an antagonist, you should offer an "out" for characters/players that really aren't into or built for PVP.

Example:

Your lvl 30 Necromancer happens upon some poor lvl 5 ranger while you are traversing the Bramble Woods, you can be menacing, even hostile, but offer them a way to not deal with you by letting them run. "Run away, little hunter, or be my next minion". Such an out offers a player to hold fast and accept the consequences or run off scared. Although, running off has the potential of a hit squad coming after you if you remain in the area.

Offering an out places the direction of the RP Soley on the the intended victim, rather than forcing them to choose between negating your RP or dying in an unwinnable fight.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Amateur Hour » Tue May 23, 2023 2:12 pm

IAmSwampFoot wrote:
Tue May 23, 2023 7:55 am

I think, if you've built your character as an antagonist, you should offer an "out" for characters/players that really aren't into or built for PVP.

Example:

Your lvl 30 Necromancer happens upon some poor lvl 5 ranger while you are traversing the Bramble Woods, you can be menacing, even hostile, but offer them a way to not deal with you by letting them run. "Run away, little hunter, or be my next minion". Such an out offers a player to hold fast and accept the consequences or run off scared. Although, running off has the potential of a hit squad coming after you if you remain in the area.

Offering an out places the direction of the RP Soley on the the intended victim, rather than forcing them to choose between negating your RP or dying in an unwinnable fight.

There's another reason to offer an out under current rules: if you just kill the level 5 ranger, there's not much potential for follow-up RP since the ranger is bound by death amnesia rules.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Edens_Fall » Fri May 26, 2023 1:20 pm

IAmSwampFoot wrote:
Tue May 23, 2023 7:55 am

I think, if you've built your character as an antagonist, you should offer an "out" for characters/players that really aren't into or built for PVP.

Example:

Your lvl 30 Necromancer happens upon some poor lvl 5 ranger while you are traversing the Bramble Woods, you can be menacing, even hostile, but offer them a way to not deal with you by letting them run. "Run away, little hunter, or be my next minion". Such an out offers a player to hold fast and accept the consequences or run off scared. Although, running off has the potential of a hit squad coming after you if you remain in the area.

Offering an out places the direction of the RP Soley on the the intended victim, rather than forcing them to choose between negating your RP or dying in an unwinnable fight.

The counter to this I've seen and experienced is the lvl 30 Paladin cutting down the level 12 necromancer without offering anyway out on the grounds "A Paladin would NEVER give any mercy to EVIL!"

Which I suppose is technically true. However we as players and human beings are not bound by the laws of fantasy Gods. It's OK to cut your fellow players a break and offer RP or an out over a death that serves no purpose other then to ruin another's limited play time.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Paint » Fri May 26, 2023 7:59 pm

Maybe I've offered my opinion on this before, but. I waffle back and forth on good v. evil. There's a lot of lenience given towards high-level characters dunking necromancers for having undead out and etc because of setting integrity. The primary idea being that certain practices should have a stigma on them and that stigma should be enforced. The alternative would be people walking around Cordor and Guldorand with demons and undead out and getting upset when someone politely asks them to leave, and that's not very Forgotten Realms, I guess.

When I'm -the good guy- and I initiate conflict, I like to offer the bad guy an out in the form of giving them some demand and telling them I'll let them off this time or something. But there are a few situations in which outs don't make any sense, and I'm perfectly fine defending my conduct in those situations. Sometimes, you bring consequences on yourself.

When I'm the -bad guy-, I tend to avoid conflict altogether-. I usually don't find myself making many demands. A lot of the PVP I've been in on team evil have been kill or be killed outside of the Banite I played who... just. Yelled at people a lot.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat May 27, 2023 2:53 pm

It does, at times, feel like team good has more freedom when it comes to PvP responses. Though I do feel any PC that does foolish things inside a settlement is at the whim of that settlement. What I reference is more natural encounters in the wild.

Having undead out in Cordor is asking for deathas an example, while having undead out while doing writ work is the only way to complete the writ. I would just like folks to take a second and consider how much story is really generated from forming up the city watch and rushing to kill that necromancer reported to be in the dungeon.

Last edited by Edens_Fall on Sun May 28, 2023 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat May 27, 2023 3:49 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 2:53 pm

It does, at times, feel like team good has more freedom when it comes to PvP responses. Though I do feel any PC that does fool things inside a settlement is at the whim of that settlement. What I reference is more natural encounters in the wild.

Having undead out in Cordor is asking for death for example, while having undead out while doing writ work is the only way to complete the writ. I would just like folks to take a second and consider how much story is really generated from forming up the city watch and rushing to kill that necromancer reported to be in the dungeon.

It becomes even more strange, story-wise, when those PCs rush after the necromancer who is, ironically, killing other necromancers in a dungeon in the service of Cordor.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Anomandaris » Sat May 27, 2023 11:36 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 2:53 pm

It does, at times, feel like team good has more freedom when it comes to PvP responses. Though I do feel any PC that does fool things inside a settlement is at the whim of that settlement. What I reference is more natural encounters in the wild.

Having undead out in Cordor is asking for death for example, while having undead out while doing writ work is the only way to complete the writ. I would just like folks to take a second and consider how much story is really generated from forming up the city watch and rushing to kill that necromancer reported to be in the dungeon.

Great point. Just in the last 48 hrs I watched a good aligned pc run to the radiant heart and get 5-6 epic level PCs to presumably come PvP and harass a lone bannite who was just using the portal, despite there being extensive IC justification for their presence. This is extremely common behavior. It happens the other direction too, but frankly less often. Small Surfacer party exploring UD territory? “Let’s get the whole Hub together and hunt them like wild animals!! Wooooooo!”

I wonder if it’s not a crowd/group psychology thing sometimes lol.

The best way to deal with this IMO is set a better example and assert some sanity ICLY through RP when people are doing cheese stuff. That means going against the geoup sometimes but it’s important.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Tue May 30, 2023 9:04 am

Anomandaris wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 11:36 pm
Edens_Fall wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 2:53 pm

It does, at times, feel like team good has more freedom when it comes to PvP responses. Though I do feel any PC that does fool things inside a settlement is at the whim of that settlement. What I reference is more natural encounters in the wild.

Having undead out in Cordor is asking for death for example, while having undead out while doing writ work is the only way to complete the writ. I would just like folks to take a second and consider how much story is really generated from forming up the city watch and rushing to kill that necromancer reported to be in the dungeon.

Great point. Just in the last 48 hrs I watched a good aligned pc run to the radiant heart and get 5-6 epic level PCs to presumably come PvP and harass a lone bannite who was just using the portal, despite there being extensive IC justification for their presence. This is extremely common behavior. It happens the other direction too, but frankly less often. Small Surfacer party exploring UD territory? “Let’s get the whole Hub together and hunt them like wild animals!! Wooooooo!”

I wonder if it’s not a crowd/group psychology thing sometimes lol.

The best way to deal with this IMO is set a better example and assert some sanity ICLY through RP when people are doing cheese stuff. That means going against the geoup sometimes but it’s important.

I'd argue that small surface parties in the UD are often very effective against us and basically a threat. 6 good pvpers can lead to a large kill count. So, Yes, The UD will go in momma bear mode.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Royal Blood » Tue May 30, 2023 12:22 pm

The UD spawns like NPCs on you if you're a surfacer in the UD so I think the idea enforced by like the server and players is the UD isn't a place to go to lightly.

Same for Underdarker on the surface too like even if we're not their to raid any UD character knows that time is limited before you get mobbed.

I don't mind these reactions as much. It's the RP that comes like before and after that's important.

I have this little phrase in my description for like winning ng and losing. I try to keep that in mind as I go around and like raids can go both ways. It can be a super big Victory or a bad defeat but the story is the most important.

I am not on a team.
I do not win, I do not lose.
I tell a story, and when I'm lucky,
Play a part in the story you tell too.

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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Lexx » Tue May 30, 2023 2:22 pm

You can't force someone into engaging with your RP if they're dead set not to. Just bear that in mind and you'll find plenty of people over time who are down to engage or even crave a delivery of such an interaction.

Do your best to make it clear you're not there just for kills and are there to roleplay an antagonist. You hold a lot of responsibility to making people want to stick around. And those who do will be the ones you move forward with in your plots and schemes to foil against one another.


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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Hazard » Tue May 30, 2023 5:46 pm

It's rare (imo) to see antagonists of quality. Often it's just someone looking to get ez PvP kills on a roleplay server (because they're bad at pvp I assume, so this is what it's come to) or someone who refuses to accept defeat because they want to be the immortal, never-ending, doesn't afraid of anything, forever villain.

The first case often gets brushed aside because it's not a good story, so they try even harder which results in even more negative reactions to their attempts, either just returning the cold pvp and then ignoring them, or just outright ignoring them.

The second tends to get peoples attention for a while, but as the story drags on and people catch on that nothing they do can ever really impact the story, and all they're doing is feeding attention to a selfish roleplayer, who is only really roleplaying for themselves, interest fizzles out and people move on.

Both types can get people jaded and a bit sick of it, understandably, so unfortunately by the time a quality antagonist DOES come along, they're met with the problematic reactions the general population has been primed into. "Oh. GREAT! Another one!"

It's sad and unfortunate but we're all humans, and that's just how it happens and how it will keep happening as long as the RP-quality ceiling is so low.

Running around looking for PvP does not an antagonist make. Neither is a Darth Mary Sue.

Both examples have something in common. They could easily be replaced by an NPC, because you can't interact with them or their story meaningfully. If people can't interact with the story, then they don't feel like they're a part of it/matter, and so they don't have any interest in engaging meaningfully in return or investing their time and effort.


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TroubledWaters
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by TroubledWaters » Wed May 31, 2023 2:23 am

Hazard wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 5:46 pm

It's rare (imo) to see antagonists of quality....

These are good points, but they cut both ways. One could easily say it's just as rare to meet a "Team Good" player that isn't always interested in winning first and killbashing ASAP, so it's not worth the effort to be an interesting antagonist.

I understand that we're all humans, but neither of these feelings is a very good justification towards treating other players like NPCs. Gandhi once said a thing about "being the PvP you wish to see in the world" or something else very similar, and a lot of people liked him so this could be a good idea.


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Hazard
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Re: Problematic Reactions to Antagonists

Post by Hazard » Wed May 31, 2023 3:01 am

TroubledWaters wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 2:23 am
Hazard wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 5:46 pm

It's rare (imo) to see antagonists of quality....

These are good points, but they cut both ways. One could easily say it's just as rare to meet a "Team Good" player that isn't always interested in winning first and killbashing ASAP, so it's not worth the effort to be an interesting antagonist.

I understand that we're all humans, but neither of these feelings is a very good justification towards treating other players like NPCs. Gandhi once said a thing about "being the PvP you wish to see in the world" or something else very similar, and a lot of people liked him so this could be a good idea.

Yes, I agree. When I say antagonist, I mean from the perspective of oneself, because this is a persistant world. So a 'team good' player can absolutely fall into this same category, as they are the antagonist of an evil character just as much as a villain is the antagonist of a good character.

As for 'being the change you want to see'. I can't help but laugh whenever people use this cop-out. I've been 'being the change I want to see' for over 15 years on this server over various accounts, identities and characters, and things only ever change in the opposite direction. Being the change you want to see isn't going to do anything on a server this populated with this high of a character and player turn-over.

There's two things people always like to throw out there when things just aren't going to change.
Be the change you want to see, or if you don't like it then maybe it isn't for you and you should leave.
Opposing statements. If you don't like something work to change it, and if you don't like something go away.

Change needs to be enforced by the staff and through the module itself. Whether through events/announcements setting an example, punishments, or more setting/lore friendly additions and tweaks, or all of the above.

It isn't going to fix itself, and it isn't going to get fixed by people trying to 'be the change'. That hasn't worked, ever. This server isn't a democracy. We don't, as players, get to decide what kind of server it is. That has been made crystal clear to us, over the years.


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