Scrying - Full Name?

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by I will never sleep » Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:19 pm

my issue isnt even the details or who is abusing what at this point, though low effort interactions do happen and you can just report it and move on until it happens again and report it the next time it happens and then report it the next time it happens in lieu of an actual solution. nevermind the fact that when it happens, the damage is already done and a dm isn't going to fix that.

its the fact its this omnipresent suffocating mechanic that has its jaws in every single interaction from the most mundane conversations to actual intrigue (because theres no easier way to bludgeon that than to scry at the right time)

i don't think people even think about it anymore. we gotta talk so time to ward!!!! or alternatively, if you're playing a fighter, some of your conversations will just cost you thousands of gold (on top of the gold you already spend to exist, as detailed in a certain other thread in the amazing feedback forum).

can we just not do it anymore.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Ork » Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:39 pm

Cthuletta wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:54 pm

This is WAY off topic from Morgy's original suggestion, but please don't. LM offers next to nothing in PvE/PvP mechanics, and is almost solely used for utility builds.

Ooh, couldn't be more off here.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Cthuletta » Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:42 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:39 pm
Cthuletta wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:54 pm

This is WAY off topic from Morgy's original suggestion, but please don't. LM offers next to nothing in PvE/PvP mechanics, and is almost solely used for utility builds.

Ooh, couldn't be more off here.

Please elaborate so I may be educated rather than just saying I'm wrong. It's more productive.
I'm only familiar with LM from personal use, and also what others have told me. If I'm incorrect, that's my bad, but I'll need examples to not make the same mistake in the future.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by magistrasa » Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:58 pm

Cthuletta wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:54 pm

This is WAY off topic from Morgy's original suggestion, but

That's not about to stop me. Prepare for battle.

people who take Lore Master are usually lessening their overall build [...] in exchange for some roleplay 'goodies'

Let's not pretend those "roleplay goodies" are something easily dismissed. We are playing on a roleplay server. Roleplay goodies are going to be inherently enticing to a vast portion of the player base. Even discounting the mechanical benefits that come with Loremaster, for five levels you get four additional languages - where one can be a secret language which can't ordinarily be learned - and two abilities that you ordinarily can't achieve without an Epic Spell Focus. I'm willing to bet anything that the two most popular options for the ESF cookies are scry and project image.

Language proficiency is an incredibly underrated tool at the Loremaster's disposal, because it literally grants you the ability to communicate with a broader variety of characters and latch onto plot hooks that you might have otherwise been ignorant to. In other words, by taking this class, you are now able to roleplay with more people. Once again, this is a roleplay server. A core feature of the class simply makes you a more potent roleplayer. That doesn't seem a little bit insane to you?

Similarly, it's no coincidence that almost every Loremaster is actually a spymaster. And to justify my post in this thread about scrying, this paragraph is more about the ability to scry than anything else. Knowledge is the currency of power when it comes to roleplay. The more you know, the more influence you have, the more plots and storylines you are able to involve yourself in, the more roleplay you are able to insert yourself into. Even setting aside the fact that one ability lets you learn people's secrets and disguises, even if on accident, just the sheer ability to think to yourself, "I want to find this person so I can talk to them about my feelings," and then immediately be able to locate them and act on that impulse is giving you more roleplay opportunities. Is it any wonder that this is an extremely coveted skill? Plenty of people don't use it maliciously, plenty of people aren't trying to undercut the storylines of sinister shenanigans, plenty of people don't obsessively scry every 5-10 mins to catch every detail of a secret conversation, because the ability is potent enough just for the simple fact that it gives you the power to decide when and where and with whom you roleplay.

And, speaking personally? I think that ability isn't so bad. I think it's great, even! I've had a lot of fun moments come from both scrying and being scried on. I regard the ability very fondly. But I don't think it should be so widespread. I don't think it should be tied to a class with little to no drawbacks involved in its acquisition. An ability that potent should come with some cost. Three feats invested into the worst spell school in the game is a fine price to pay for the power it gives you in return. But five levels in a class that already gives you so much else as part of the kit is not remotely comparable.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Cthuletta » Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:03 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:58 pm

Several goods points all over the place.

I definitely see where you're coming from!
One idea I had was make scry available to Divination Focused Wizards, or just people with the three required feats like you suggest.
I can see why scry would want to be removed from Lore Master, and I would support that.
Just wouldn't support removing Lore Master all together!

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Morgy » Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:04 pm

Loremaster is pretty good for PvP when used with the right 'secrets'. AB/AC and empowered scrolls should not be underestimated.

I do not think Loremaster should be deleted, but I would be in favour of removing the scry secret, which allows far too much easy spying.

Scrying comes up frequently as a problem and I imagine it is a closely watched topic by the admins/devs. I do hope it gets reviewed openly in the future.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:54 pm

It's not just the loremaster - keep in mind that shamans are getting divination spell foci for FREE.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Morgy » Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:01 pm

Shaman have more of a reason to have access than the wm/fighter (for example) that took loremaster to get scry but doesn't actually do any loremastery stuff, I think.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by WanderingPoet » Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:07 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:58 pm

That's not about to stop me. Prepare for battle.

Language proficiency is an incredibly underrated tool at the Loremaster's disposal, because it literally grants you the ability to communicate with a broader variety of characters and latch onto plot hooks that you might have otherwise been ignorant to. In other words, by taking this class, you are now able to roleplay with more people. Once again, this is a roleplay server. A core feature of the class simply makes you a more potent roleplayer. That doesn't seem a little bit insane to you?

Similarly, it's no coincidence that almost every Loremaster is actually a spymaster.

I don't think even 10% of loremasters are actually spymasters. Language proficiency isn't as good as you make it out to be. My current loremaster rarely encounters situations where languages come into play, and just having a decent int/gift of tongues gives you most of the core languages people speak. My wizard who knew 5 languages before loremaster even existed had as much language RP as my loremaster with 11 languages, and my elf who knew two had more only because of being an elf.

Note that I am saying specifically language encounters, this is not to say I don't make use of the languages in my own personal RP; just that I've not encountered additional plots I would've been left out of, or information I would've missed, by virtue of having additional loremaster languages. If anything, the few encounters I have had would've been improved by having fewer languages, as I would have had more reason to seek out other people to get a translation.

Morgy wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:04 pm

Loremaster is pretty good for PvP when used with the right 'secrets'. AB/AC and empowered scrolls should not be underestimated.

I do not think Loremaster should be deleted, but I would be in favour of removing the scry secret, which allows far too much easy spying.

Scrying comes up frequently as a problem and I imagine it is a closely watched topic by the admins/devs. I do hope it gets reviewed openly in the future.

Perhaps Scrying should be removed, but Div would need a new fun tool to play with too. Maybe scrying needs to just be adjusted to allow you to only scry those you've interacted with, like placing a marker on a person and it allows you to scry only them for a few RL days. Something like that would remove the actual abuse of the skill, and require some amount of actual face to face roleplay with the target rather than someone just having a scrylist.

That said, I don't think Loremaster should be deleted either, I do think that the mechanical secrets should maybe go away. AB especially negates basically all penalty from taking loremaster on martial classes, while AC is half of armour skin and stacks with it, and health is a free toughness feat. Maybe div secret can give access to deck of stars rather than scry, so that it reduces the number of people with scry.

Practically though, scry is trivial to hide from unless people are abusing it as noted above (using it to scry through someone's disguise in the middle of town), and there are IG books on how to counter it. So scry itself isn't strong, but it is definitely very abuseable.

Empowered wands/scrolls are also very powerful in PVP; just having a 25% higher chance to nuke a gate summon with WoF alone is huge. 1 more AC from barkskin, longer scroll durations and thus less gold spent - on a server where gold wins PVP. A class that makes it 50% cheaper to PVP is going to be a massive boost to PVP, especially with the large boost to lore allowing level 8 or 9 scroll use (just being a loremaster with maxed ranked lore gives you level 7 scrolls).

It might even be worth making loremaster 18 int, to make it less accessible and a greater cost to get. 16 is trivial to get on basically any non MAD build. Even if you have to sacrifice 2str or 2 con from your barbarian or WM, you make up for it with 1AB secret or 30hp secret.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Anomandaris » Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:18 am

People abuse a thing and then we want to get rid of it? This is why we can’t have nice things.

PLEASE KEEP SCRY

Don’t nerf it either it’s stupid easy to counter. Punish abusive behavior and rule breaks… easy.

P.S. Builds with lore master in them can absolutely slap and it’s a fun class plz don’t get rid of it either.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Ork » Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:47 pm

The use of scry in manners that break disguises isn't strictly against the rules. At current, it's a feature. That's the issue, and why scry should be removed. In the same way we took away the spot bonus from TS because players would see a "disguised" name and immediately cast true seeing, people do that with scry as well.

We have locations around the server that have scry-like features, and I think that would be best for how scry works in the future. The ability to turn a corner, -scry, and come back within 15 seconds to say "hey that's Johnny Necromancer, get him!" is honestly beyond silly but also not a rulebreak.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Kalthariam » Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:01 am

Scrying isn't the problem.

People's "I must win" mentalities are the problem.

Scrying in and of itself is not the problem.

I'm not really convinced that this issue happens that often to be honest, I've only ever heard of it happening on the forums, I've never once seen someone's disguise get broken by someone scrying.

Feels like something that happened once or twice by people with a vendetta and now it's just being brought up over and over again to try to get scrying removed.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:33 am

Ork wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:47 pm

The use of scry in manners that break disguises isn't strictly against the rules. At current, it's a feature. That's the issue, and why scry should be removed. In the same way we took away the spot bonus from TS because players would see a "disguised" name and immediately cast true seeing, people do that with scry as well.

We have locations around the server that have scry-like features, and I think that would be best for how scry works in the future. The ability to turn a corner, -scry, and come back within 15 seconds to say "hey that's Johnny Necromancer, get him!" is honestly beyond silly but also not a rulebreak.

Wouldn't that fall under metagaming though?


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Cthuletta » Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:47 am

Kalthariam wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:01 am

Scrying isn't the problem.

People's "I must win" mentalities are the problem.

Scrying in and of itself is not the problem.

I'm not really convinced that this issue happens that often to be honest, I've only ever heard of it happening on the forums, I've never once seen someone's disguise get broken by someone scrying.

Feels like something that happened once or twice by people with a vendetta and now it's just being brought up over and over again to try to get scrying removed.

I have personally witnessed people telling someone to 'Not move', and then scrying them on the spot to see if they are that person in a disguise.
If they are warded, and have imp. invis. on, they make the person rest to remove it, so they can successfully scry.
This isn't a one-off occurance in which I've seen it happen, either. It has been quite a few times that I've been there and seen it, and then MORE that I've heard about through IC reports/forums/Discord chats.

I do agree the 'I must win' mentality is a big factor, though.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Ork » Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:54 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:33 am

Wouldn't that fall under metagaming though?

It is. Immediate was poor wording. A lot of times players establish patterns of behavior to excuse their poor form. For instance, I use to know a Cordor Guard that would cast true-seeing enough times to maintain their +spot back when that could be used to break disguises and it just so happened that they caught a lot of disguisers by standing in the square with TS-spam.

Were they metagaming or just using the mechanics they had available to them.

In a same way, players will frequently "scry" their target routinely (which led to the scry timer + rest requirement) and these players still utilize this mechanic. If they catch their target in a disguise, jot it down, and use it later with perfect clarity of events - is that metagaming or just using the mechanics they had available to them?


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Hazard » Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:09 am

Kalthariam wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:01 am

Scrying isn't the problem.

People's "I must win" mentalities are the problem.

Scrying in and of itself is not the problem.

I'm not really convinced that this issue happens that often to be honest, I've only ever heard of it happening on the forums, I've never once seen someone's disguise get broken by someone scrying.

Feels like something that happened once or twice by people with a vendetta and now it's just being brought up over and over again to try to get scrying removed.

It happens a lot. It's very common and normal. You just need to play a character that is anchored to a settlement/their guard force, or any militant sort of group, and this is pretty stock-standard. Has been for quite a while now.

You're right though, it is the "I must win" mentality, but that isn't going away on its own. It will require a change of policy, rules and enforcement.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:33 am

At first I thought this thread wont even make it past page 1 because it couldnt matter any less if we need to type full name or not.

But uh... yeah...

Remove Scry.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Anomandaris » Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:57 am

I’m trying to write this without coming across rude but I can’t find a more tactful way to frame it, as I think it’s part of the problem.

I wonder how fragile have we become that we feel compelled to systematically nerf or remove anything that creates vulnerability/danger to our PCs? I promise it’s really ok that scry is out there.

It’s a weird trend and I don’t know why we want to suck more danger out of the setting. Scry as a system in general is fine, and really neat to have. If you get scried and die, make something out of it, everything will be ok. If you are doing something interesting to the point someone cares enough to literally sit around and scry you, you’re probably deep enough into Arelith to know how to prevent scrying. There’s very little excuse for ever getting scried doing anything you don’t want to be seen doing except for laziness or you’re new and haven’t been taught IC yet. You heard it here first, being a secret double agent in a world full of magic actually requires caution and countermeasures (this is good)!

If you want to stay safe and not hunted by boogeymen then don’t involve yourself in spy games with evil psychopathic villains? Or perhaps don’t play a murderous villain and not expect some Tyr loving paladin to come give you a once over with the rest of his radiant heart buddies. Or don’t challenge the political power of an established faction known for murdering their rivals…

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean you have to campaign it get taken away from everyone else. It’s part of the experience, and has LOTS of counter play. Just deal with it? Most people’s reason boils down to not liking getting scried and/or losing and /or bad things happening to their characters. Guess what, I love the scry mechanic, but I don’t like getting scried either! That’s why I usually prevent it, like most people do.

And now for a bit of tongue in cheek hyperbole to round out feedback thread bingo: I hate when someone comes out of stealth and hit me for lots of dmg let’s get rid of sneak attacks. Crits are really too overwhelming do we really need anything more than a x2 modifier? Let’s get rid of all hard CC it’s not fair. Oh and pickpocketing is annoying as is all theft, summons are too strong, and magic just is too dangerous in general, let’s axe it! Soon I can stroll through Arelith and not have to worry about anything bad happening to my char, won’t that be great!


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Preserver » Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:11 am

On a related note.
If Scry gets changed or removed, please add an interesting equivalent that makes the PC feel like a proficient Diviner and that is more than "more rounds to Truesight".

On a related, related note.
If Loremaster gets changed or removed, please add an interesting equivalent that allows players to RP the same fantasy and that isn't "just make a lore focused Wizard/Commoner/Cleric/etcetera...".

I personally have little to no interest in the mechanical implications of Scrying and Loremaster, but I believe it would ultimately be negative to remove the roleplay niche those two fantasies allow.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by magistrasa » Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:36 am

Anomandaris wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:57 am

I wonder how fragile have we become that we feel compelled to systematically nerf or remove anything that creates vulnerability/danger to our PCs?

You're not understanding the dominant complaint in this thread. People here aren't criticizing scry because it opens them up to be hunted and killed by their adversaries - the complaint is rooted in its effects on the roleplay culture on the server, and how it frequently appears to be used to justify metagaming and poor practice in collaborative storytelling. The primary concern here is rooted in the fact that disguises have mechanical means to be beaten and overcome that players invest a lot of time and resources into, and scrying effectively bypasses all the intended counterplay for disguises - which seems like an oversight, but apparently is working as intended. Thus, scriers use these cheese tactics to indulge their own "must win" mentality, with little consideration paid to the narrative their fellow player is trying to create. In certain circles, once your name gets on a list, no matter the circumstance, your ability to engage in storylines that involves intrigue is effectively over.

The real cultural issue this touches upon, I think, is the devaluation of quality narratives, from which that "must win" mentality is a symptom of. People don't care as much about the wholeness of experience that you can have with Arelith if you invest time and attention into the world. They want the immediacy of instant gratification. They want to feel like the main character of their own story, and hardly pay attention to anyone else beyond it. Ignorance is an intolerable agony - "I see you're disguised, I don't care if it's metagaming to act on it, I need to know who you are RIGHT NOW" - instead of being treated as a tantalizing mystery that can accentuate a story. There's a lot of bad actors who will take a mile if you give them an inch. And I don't say "bad actors" in a way that implies malicious intention. I say "bad actors" to mean, there's people who are playing the game to the best of their ability, and they are simply poor performers when it comes to the conduct of their roleplay. They kinda suck at storytelling, and scrying is their shortcut to influence and their primary tool used to insert themselves into narratives that they're otherwise simply not able to meaningfully contribute to.

I've discovered people's disguise identities entirely on accident on a scrier, as I happened to witness an incredibly vulnerable moment of secrecy. That put a lot of power in my hands to unceremoniously close the book on their ambitious narrative. I chose not to act on it, understanding that if I spread word of what I saw, it would not lead to a satisfying resolution for the story. Maybe it's not fair of me to expect, but I'm not sure how many people give the same consideration to their fellow players.

That said, again, I also don't want scry removed. In the right hands, it can provide a fantastic tool for roleplay, and it'd be a travesty if it were taken away. But it NEEDS reduced access, desperately.

Preserver wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:11 am

I believe it would ultimately be negative to remove the roleplay niche [Loremasters] allow.

I have yet to be made to understand what Loremaster's "niche" is even supposed to be. It's an entirely modular class where the only unifying factor is that it gives you a ton of languages, and lets you use wands & scrolls better than anyone else. EVERYTHING about the class is designed around a "choose your own adventure" style, which means it has no real theme or identity by intentional design. You could easily turn the Loremaster class into a couple feats, because everything else about it is already just copying the feats of every other class for significantly less investment. Is that really a niche? Or is that just the appropriation of every other niche for a fraction of their comparative investment?

Keep scry, delete Loremaster.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by I will never sleep » Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:07 pm

i am surprised shadowdancer is still the most popular prestige class and not loremaster because past a point it feels like every non pvp minded player just knows every language and can scry and yoink and like nothing has an identity anymore because those things are widely available to basically anyone with 5 levels of a prestige class.

loremaster doesn't really have a niche either, in other flavors of it in d20. in pathfinder, all loremaster gives you also is some feats and the ability to add some spells from any other class to your spellbook. so you could be a wizard with elemental swarm or gresto, just as an example. arelith is loosely in tune with this by just making the secrets esf cookies instead of actual spells but missed the fact that in pathfinder you still had to be able to cast that level of spell to be able to use it.

i think it could easily be retooled into a kind of artificier or scroll savant class given arelith's flavor of it involving scroll/wand usage. i think the implementation of loremaster's languages is low effort and honestly sort of makes me feel like something is lost when languages are given so cheaply. i'm not going to die on the hill of The Sanctity of Arelith RP and The Immersive Forgotten Realms Experience, but how do you know who is actually netherese, and who just has 5 levels of a prestige class? genuinely. how do you know? Being Netherese... doesn't have an identity anymore. what happened to bat's point buy thing with lm languages?

just as i feel like casters in general don't have an identity, to be honest. with the advent of spellsword and everyone being vaguely magical, their identity may as well just be making consumables for other people to use.


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Anomandaris » Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:05 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:36 am
Anomandaris wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:57 am

I wonder how fragile have we become that we feel compelled to systematically nerf or remove anything that creates vulnerability/danger to our PCs?

You're not understanding the dominant complaint in this thread. People here aren't criticizing scry because it opens them up to be hunted and killed by their adversaries - the complaint is rooted in its effects on the roleplay culture on the server, and how it frequently appears to be used to justify metagaming and poor practice in collaborative storytelling. The primary concern here is rooted in the fact that disguises have mechanical means to be beaten and overcome that players invest a lot of time and resources into, and scrying effectively bypasses all the intended counterplay for disguises - which seems like an oversight, but apparently is working as intended. Thus, scriers use these cheese tactics to indulge their own "must win" mentality, with little consideration paid to the narrative their fellow player is trying to create. In certain circles, once your name gets on a list, no matter the circumstance, your ability to engage in storylines that involves intrigue is effectively over.

The real cultural issue this touches upon, I think, is the devaluation of quality narratives, from which that "must win" mentality is a symptom of. People don't care as much about the wholeness of experience that you can have with Arelith if you invest time and attention into the world. They want the immediacy of instant gratification. They want to feel like the main character of their own story, and hardly pay attention to anyone else beyond it. Ignorance is an intolerable agony - "I see you're disguised, I don't care if it's metagaming to act on it, I need to know who you are RIGHT NOW" - instead of being treated as a tantalizing mystery that can accentuate a story. There's a lot of bad actors who will take a mile if you give them an inch. And I don't say "bad actors" in a way that implies malicious intention. I say "bad actors" to mean, there's people who are playing the game to the best of their ability, and they are simply poor performers when it comes to the conduct of their roleplay. They kinda suck at storytelling, and scrying is their shortcut to influence and their primary tool used to insert themselves into narratives that they're otherwise simply not able to meaningfully contribute to.

I've discovered people's disguise identities entirely on accident on a scrier, as I happened to witness an incredibly vulnerable moment of secrecy. That put a lot of power in my hands to unceremoniously close the book on their ambitious narrative. I chose not to act on it, understanding that if I spread word of what I saw, it would not lead to a satisfying resolution for the story. Maybe it's not fair of me to expect, but I'm not sure how many people give the same consideration to their fellow players.

That said, again, I also don't want scry removed. In the right hands, it can provide a fantastic tool for roleplay, and it'd be a travesty if it were taken away. But it NEEDS reduced access, desperately.

Preserver wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:11 am

I believe it would ultimately be negative to remove the roleplay niche [Loremasters] allow.

I have yet to be made to understand what Loremaster's "niche" is even supposed to be. It's an entirely modular class where the only unifying factor is that it gives you a ton of languages, and lets you use wands & scrolls better than anyone else. EVERYTHING about the class is designed around a "choose your own adventure" style, which means it has no real theme or identity by intentional design. You could easily turn the Loremaster class into a couple feats, because everything else about it is already just copying the feats of every other class for significantly less investment. Is that really a niche? Or is that just the appropriation of every other niche for a fraction of their comparative investment?

Keep scry, delete Loremaster.

You’re spot on but not all have taken a your measured position. I can’t’ disagree with anything said here (except delete LM, I enjoy the class)! A well reasoned approach rather than just “ get rid of it” I don’t like it.

Last edited by Anomandaris on Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:12 pm

Loremaster, mechanically speaking and balance-wise, is a fantastic class in a fantastic state. It is slightly worse than bard/rogue in most situations, it is a straight upgrade from rogue/bard in other situations, and it has incredible value economically and for pvp.

Unrelated, Loremaster also breaks the game through it's access to scry and the laughably high number of languages it gets, but that has nothing to do with Balancetm


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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Preserver » Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:57 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:36 am
Preserver wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:11 am

I believe it would ultimately be negative to remove the roleplay niche [Loremasters] allow.

I have yet to be made to understand what Loremaster's "niche" is even supposed to be. It's an entirely modular class where the only unifying factor is that it gives you a ton of languages, and lets you use wands & scrolls better than anyone else. EVERYTHING about the class is designed around a "choose your own adventure" style, which means it has no real theme or identity by intentional design. You could easily turn the Loremaster class into a couple feats, because everything else about it is already just copying the feats of every other class for significantly less investment. Is that really a niche? Or is that just the appropriation of every other niche for a fraction of their comparative investment?

Keep scry, delete Loremaster.

As most people, I can only speak on the relevance of my experience.
The niche, for me, is that as Loremaster I roleplay a loremaster; a person who makes of their knowledge their primary method of engaging with the world (ICly) and with the narrative (OOCly) - a scholar.
A character of mine was a Loremaster; the build was sub-par, the combat function non-existant, yet that was by design in the measure of it allowing me to RP the fantasy of being a person who has access to a considerable amount of esoteric lore that doesn't necessarily fit with the standard spellcaster.

To me, Loremaster was the best way to access that sort of fantasy and that character to roleplay.
Maybe it is not the only option, but it was the one that I experienced and enjoyed.
As such, I would be saddened to see Loremaster deleted without another just-as-viable option for that specific RP niche to be granted to players.

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Re: Scrying - Full Name?

Post by Cthuletta » Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:04 pm

Preserver wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:57 pm

As most people, I can only speak on the relevance of my experience.
The niche, for me, is that as Loremaster I roleplay a loremaster; a person who makes of their knowledge their primary method of engaging with the world (ICly) and with the narrative (OOCly) - a scholar.
A character of mine was a Loremaster; the build was sub-par, the combat function non-existant, yet that was by design in the measure of it allowing me to RP the fantasy of being a person who has access to a considerable amount of esoteric lore that doesn't necessarily fit with the standard spellcaster.

To me, Loremaster was the best way to access that sort of fantasy and that character to roleplay.
Maybe it is not the only option, but it was the one that I experienced and enjoyed.
As such, I would be saddened to see Loremaster deleted without another just-as-viable option for that specific RP niche to be granted to players.

I agree. I personally play my Loremasters as bookworms who study and master... you guessed it... various lore. This has not only been fun to RP in GENERAL, but I've even had DM interaction and 'hints' based on my Loremaster levels, and my high lore skill. It's a fun and wonderful thing, when used as intended... now if a totally mundane fighter is using it as a dip, and not at all roleplaying the class, I'd understand the grievance, but not everyone does that. In the same line of thinking, much as someone said above, is that 'cheating', or is it just a feature?

Balancing stuff like this is never easy. Mostly because you can't always tell if it's 'cheating' or not. The ones who do abuse it, tend to ruin it for those who don't, but then those who don't manipulate such things, still suffer from the hands of who do.

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