About Loremasters

[helitron]

For my own curiosity, I only see here the three class builds but know there are some 25 bard 5 LM builds out there. Do the 2 class builds not show up in this query?

Good catch. The list was indeed missing two-class builds due to an error in my name cleanup logic.
I've updated my original post with the updated list.

Thanks! Good to see the 2 class builds included.
Can you tell how many other LM combinations are there that not show up on the list? The ones with only 1-2 chars that were omitted?
I am curious how many different builds are out there that use LM.

[helitron]

Numbers were never relevant, they typically aren't for mechanical discussions.

There were less people playing Plantshape shifters and they still got rightfully nerfed, because they were just too much.

I do think numbers are important here. For Plantshape, you could only build for it, and it was not necessary a dip for RP reasons. As you day, very few played it. LM however is used in many different builds by many players. and nerfing LM altogether instead of maybe looking into the WM/LM combo will affect a lot of players that are not building for that mechanical benefit.

[Algol]

I am aware that WoF works, but it is more than than.
Action economy. You will always want to breach, if you open with Mords and it dispels Planar Conduit then you no longer need to WoF, that's a round saved.

This is not a concern. Epic summoning spells cannot be dispelled, only unsummoned. Dispels do not work on epic spells.

[AlonelyBard]

I love the vibes of the class. I just wish there were easier ways to fit the class into other classes, the CL is an amazing bonus for the half-caster martials, but sadly it tends to not be possible as, outside ranger, we've mostly moved to the pure class model now. While the Fighter/WM/LM is incredibly strong, I think it's similar to other WM issues where the class itself is supposed to bring massive benefits(Huge melee damage boost) for some pretty major tradeoffs(AC, and lack of utility). Loremaster is able to shore up most of the downsides of Martial, and aswell, shores up WM's weaknesses. It's not quite a Loremaster issue, because it's definitely doing what's intended of the class, more that it and WM is a perfect mix.
I think part of something that can be done to improve the class would actually be to make some of the other secrets more worthwhile, as is, I feel 90%+ of LMs get the same, AC/AB bonuses, then they pick their favourite of the Greater Secrets(Scry and Ward being the best of the options). Obviously there's some in here that seem sort of like traps, like the ESF for Evocation/Necromancy and the Golem secrets. Tutor is a nice addition for RP but I personally feel like it'd fit better as a capstone for 5 levels of LM.

[Preserver]

I am a Loremaster enjoyer.
A good 80% of the characters I made had Loremaster levels, which I suppose means I like playing nerds.

I am uninformed and not quite interested in the balance parts of it, but I believe there is worth and virtue in allowing players to mechanically play someone who excels at erudition without them necessarily being a spellcaster. If a PrC or a class keep existing allowing one to mechanically support that fantasy, I'll be happy (that means that I believe it is better for this particular fantasy to be represented with dedicated mechanics, not only through RP).

[-XXX-]

Loremaster levels enable sailing builds - if I want to play a weaponmaster sailor, I go the LM route because gift of exploration and -yoink perk.
Ultimately I end up with a build that's still merely good enough at both roles. Can I make a better dedicated sailor or weaponmaster character? Yes - at the price of the other character aspects. Enter compulsive munchkinism FOMO.

[Shadowy Reality]

I am aware that WoF works, but it is more than than.
Action economy. You will always want to breach, if you open with Mords and it dispels Planar Conduit then you no longer need to WoF, that's a round saved.

This is not a concern. Epic summoning spells cannot be dispelled, only unsummoned. Dispels do not work on epic spells.

This is not true, just recently a monster dispelled my Planar Conduit in PvE. Maybe it is a bug, but it does happen.
And the argument still holds for Gate. If you dispel gate you no longer need to WoF.

[Ruzuke]

I enjoy the theme of being a scholar Lore Master provides; however, it also grants much power. Five bonus feats in four levels, 50% chance to save using a scroll or wand, Spellcraft, UMD, Pickpocket, and Disable Trap, a bonus to use high-level scrolls, and you can use it to do pretty much anything and everything.

Even a three-level dip is better than rogue, as a character can open all the locks, disable all the traps, defend better against spells, has 2 bonus feats, and a 30% chance of not consuming wands and scrolls. Also a few bonus languages.

[Spriggan Bride]

Obviously there's some in here that seem sort of like traps, like the ESF for Evocation/Necromancy and the Golem secrets. Tutor is a nice addition for RP but I personally feel like it'd fit better as a capstone for 5 levels of LM.

I wish we'd retire this term "trap" because people use it way too loosely. The golem gift isn't a trap, it's extremely good for artificer RP and gives you decent-ish companions for leveling. It's not for everyone but that's how these secrets should work, boons for customizing characters based on the lore they are mastering.

[Aellowyn]

I think Loremaster is just fine as is and adds some nice cookies and RP flavor to mundanes.

[hi chat]

wm/lm is fine - offers decent qol to mundies and gives them some cookies. there's far better WM builds out there if the intention is to just pvp monger, but LM is popular because scroll/wand refund saves you a lot of money in PVE, the bonuses to SC and lore help with gearing and the RP flavour is always good.

the real reason wm/lm is so prolific is because of 25/5 getting gutted; a similarly comfortable WM build with a decent amount of utility and a fairly self-sufficient kit.

[Algol]

What do you mean by there are far better WM builds for PvP? WM/LM is the probably the best PvP and PvE build for WM currently.

[Security_Blanket]

I don't know that Loremaster is the issue and it's not just the general direction the server is taking towards quality of life. A lot of the QoL mechanics are tied to magic in some way, scry/teleport/yoink, languages, wand/scroll refunds, skill dips in Open Lock, Disable Trap, Spellcraft, a bonus 1 AC, AB, or 30 HP if you're a caster.

I guess part of my issue with Loremaster is bigger than just Loremaster and I see it as simply the class at the heart of the problem. Are we just committing to the power creep at this point? It's bad enough that +5 weapons are everywhere, let alone having scrying/teleporting, scroll refund getting, bonus language having, maxed out spellcraft, full BAB Loremasters turning spellcasters into a joke.

[Kythana]

What do you mean by there are far better WM builds for PvP? WM/LM is the probably the best PvP and PvE build for WM currently.

Cornersneaking wm and fighter/wm/bg are arguably better than fighter/wm/lm for PvP.

LM is definitely comfy for PvE though, at least solo. For groups, I'd rather have more damage with divine synergy/sneak attack though.

[Quidix]

On a related topic, it would be nice if Hidden Persona and Secret Identity were general / epic feats available more broadly too.