About Loremasters

[helitron]

For my own curiosity, I only see here the three class builds but know there are some 25 bard 5 LM builds out there. Do the 2 class builds not show up in this query?

Good catch. The list was indeed missing two-class builds due to an error in my name cleanup logic.
I've updated my original post with the updated list.

Thanks! Good to see the 2 class builds included.
Can you tell how many other LM combinations are there that not show up on the list? The ones with only 1-2 chars that were omitted?
I am curious how many different builds are out there that use LM.

[helitron]

Numbers were never relevant, they typically aren't for mechanical discussions.

There were less people playing Plantshape shifters and they still got rightfully nerfed, because they were just too much.

I do think numbers are important here. For Plantshape, you could only build for it, and it was not necessary a dip for RP reasons. As you day, very few played it. LM however is used in many different builds by many players. and nerfing LM altogether instead of maybe looking into the WM/LM combo will affect a lot of players that are not building for that mechanical benefit.

[Algol]

I am aware that WoF works, but it is more than than.
Action economy. You will always want to breach, if you open with Mords and it dispels Planar Conduit then you no longer need to WoF, that's a round saved.

This is not a concern. Epic summoning spells cannot be dispelled, only unsummoned. Dispels do not work on epic spells.

[AlonelyBard]

I love the vibes of the class. I just wish there were easier ways to fit the class into other classes, the CL is an amazing bonus for the half-caster martials, but sadly it tends to not be possible as, outside ranger, we've mostly moved to the pure class model now. While the Fighter/WM/LM is incredibly strong, I think it's similar to other WM issues where the class itself is supposed to bring massive benefits(Huge melee damage boost) for some pretty major tradeoffs(AC, and lack of utility). Loremaster is able to shore up most of the downsides of Martial, and aswell, shores up WM's weaknesses. It's not quite a Loremaster issue, because it's definitely doing what's intended of the class, more that it and WM is a perfect mix.
I think part of something that can be done to improve the class would actually be to make some of the other secrets more worthwhile, as is, I feel 90%+ of LMs get the same, AC/AB bonuses, then they pick their favourite of the Greater Secrets(Scry and Ward being the best of the options). Obviously there's some in here that seem sort of like traps, like the ESF for Evocation/Necromancy and the Golem secrets. Tutor is a nice addition for RP but I personally feel like it'd fit better as a capstone for 5 levels of LM.

[Preserver]

I am a Loremaster enjoyer.
A good 80% of the characters I made had Loremaster levels, which I suppose means I like playing nerds.

I am uninformed and not quite interested in the balance parts of it, but I believe there is worth and virtue in allowing players to mechanically play someone who excels at erudition without them necessarily being a spellcaster. If a PrC or a class keep existing allowing one to mechanically support that fantasy, I'll be happy (that means that I believe it is better for this particular fantasy to be represented with dedicated mechanics, not only through RP).

[-XXX-]

Loremaster levels enable sailing builds - if I want to play a weaponmaster sailor, I go the LM route because gift of exploration and -yoink perk.
Ultimately I end up with a build that's still merely good enough at both roles. Can I make a better dedicated sailor or weaponmaster character? Yes - at the price of the other character aspects. Enter compulsive munchkinism FOMO.

[Shadowy Reality]

I am aware that WoF works, but it is more than than.
Action economy. You will always want to breach, if you open with Mords and it dispels Planar Conduit then you no longer need to WoF, that's a round saved.

This is not a concern. Epic summoning spells cannot be dispelled, only unsummoned. Dispels do not work on epic spells.

This is not true, just recently a monster dispelled my Planar Conduit in PvE. Maybe it is a bug, but it does happen.
And the argument still holds for Gate. If you dispel gate you no longer need to WoF.

[Ruzuke]

I enjoy the theme of being a scholar Lore Master provides; however, it also grants much power. Five bonus feats in four levels, 50% chance to save using a scroll or wand, Spellcraft, UMD, Pickpocket, and Disable Trap, a bonus to use high-level scrolls, and you can use it to do pretty much anything and everything.

Even a three-level dip is better than rogue, as a character can open all the locks, disable all the traps, defend better against spells, has 2 bonus feats, and a 30% chance of not consuming wands and scrolls. Also a few bonus languages.

[Spriggan Bride]

Obviously there's some in here that seem sort of like traps, like the ESF for Evocation/Necromancy and the Golem secrets. Tutor is a nice addition for RP but I personally feel like it'd fit better as a capstone for 5 levels of LM.

I wish we'd retire this term "trap" because people use it way too loosely. The golem gift isn't a trap, it's extremely good for artificer RP and gives you decent-ish companions for leveling. It's not for everyone but that's how these secrets should work, boons for customizing characters based on the lore they are mastering.

[Aellowyn]

I think Loremaster is just fine as is and adds some nice cookies and RP flavor to mundanes.

[hi chat]

wm/lm is fine - offers decent qol to mundies and gives them some cookies. there's far better WM builds out there if the intention is to just pvp monger, but LM is popular because scroll/wand refund saves you a lot of money in PVE, the bonuses to SC and lore help with gearing and the RP flavour is always good.

the real reason wm/lm is so prolific is because of 25/5 getting gutted; a similarly comfortable WM build with a decent amount of utility and a fairly self-sufficient kit.

[Algol]

What do you mean by there are far better WM builds for PvP? WM/LM is the probably the best PvP and PvE build for WM currently.

[Security_Blanket]

I don't know that Loremaster is the issue and it's not just the general direction the server is taking towards quality of life. A lot of the QoL mechanics are tied to magic in some way, scry/teleport/yoink, languages, wand/scroll refunds, skill dips in Open Lock, Disable Trap, Spellcraft, a bonus 1 AC, AB, or 30 HP if you're a caster.

I guess part of my issue with Loremaster is bigger than just Loremaster and I see it as simply the class at the heart of the problem. Are we just committing to the power creep at this point? It's bad enough that +5 weapons are everywhere, let alone having scrying/teleporting, scroll refund getting, bonus language having, maxed out spellcraft, full BAB Loremasters turning spellcasters into a joke.

[Kythana]

What do you mean by there are far better WM builds for PvP? WM/LM is the probably the best PvP and PvE build for WM currently.

Cornersneaking wm and fighter/wm/bg are arguably better than fighter/wm/lm for PvP.

LM is definitely comfy for PvE though, at least solo. For groups, I'd rather have more damage with divine synergy/sneak attack though.

[Quidix]

On a related topic, it would be nice if Hidden Persona and Secret Identity were general / epic feats available more broadly too.

[A1RMAN]

Loremaster is a great class, but mostly for QoL reasons (increased durations, chance to save charges/scrolls, teleport). It also brings a reasonable amount of versatility, you can build different things with it - for pvp, for pve, for sailing, for tutoring, for crafting. You choose.

PvP balance-wise it's not a problem. I have never thought to myself: "The guy has LM levels, he's dangerous!". Simply because it's not the case. The increased CL for Mords shouldn't even be mentioned if we're fighting against a CL30-buffed guy.

Fighter/WM/LM is not amongst the best PvP builds on the server. It's just popular because it's on the Compendium.

[Algol]

A character with 5 levels in LM has a 5% chance to dispell a CL30 spell, so it does matter. Builds with less than 30 CL are simply unviable in pvp due to existance of LM scroll level increase.

[AstralUniverse]

A character with 5 levels in LM has a 5% chance to dispell a CL30 spell, so it does matter. Builds with less than 30 CL are simply unviable in pvp due to existance of LM scroll level increase.

I'm definitely not at the "loremaster is fine and balanced" camp, but tbh builds with less than 30 cl are decreasingly viable in pvp regardless of loremaster. There are also wizards, warlocks, clerics, favoured souls and idk how many more classes with greater dispel in book. Saying that loremaster is the thing that makes low CL builds none viable... while low CL hasnt been viable since 2005...

[-stick-]

A character with 5 levels in LM has a 5% chance to dispell a CL30 spell, so it does matter. Builds with less than 30 CL are simply unviable in pvp due to existance of LM scroll level increase.

I'm definitely not at the "loremaster is fine and balanced" camp, but tbh builds with less than 30 cl are decreasingly viable in pvp regardless of loremaster. There are also wizards, warlocks, clerics, favoured souls and idk how many more classes with greater dispel in book. Saying that loremaster is the thing that makes low CL builds none viable... while low CL hasnt been viable since 2005...

Dispell is OP ATM Since its DC was boosted Some time ago, If the 5% bothers players that much Why not lower the dispell DC in general ? 15% instead of 25% ?

[AstralUniverse]

A character with 5 levels in LM has a 5% chance to dispell a CL30 spell, so it does matter. Builds with less than 30 CL are simply unviable in pvp due to existance of LM scroll level increase.

I'm definitely not at the "loremaster is fine and balanced" camp, but tbh builds with less than 30 cl are decreasingly viable in pvp regardless of loremaster. There are also wizards, warlocks, clerics, favoured souls and idk how many more classes with greater dispel in book. Saying that loremaster is the thing that makes low CL builds none viable... while low CL hasnt been viable since 2005...

Dispell is OP ATM Since its DC was boosted Some time ago, If the 5% bothers players that much Why not lower the dispell DC in general ? 15% instead of 25% ?

I somehow feel like that would needlessly nerf sorcerer, wizard, warlock, spellsword and more.

[Algol]

A character with 5 levels in LM has a 5% chance to dispell a CL30 spell, so it does matter. Builds with less than 30 CL are simply unviable in pvp due to existance of LM scroll level increase.

I'm definitely not at the "loremaster is fine and balanced" camp, but tbh builds with less than 30 cl are decreasingly viable in pvp regardless of loremaster. There are also wizards, warlocks, clerics, favoured souls and idk how many more classes with greater dispel in book. Saying that loremaster is the thing that makes low CL builds none viable... while low CL hasnt been viable since 2005...

Caster classes that go abjuration focii route do not have constant pressure of melee classes. It is way more punishing to re-apply your wards while a high DPS character is attacking you. And scrolls are not limited by spell slots or anything like that... When a wizard/ sorcs casts mords/ greater dispell on you that's 1 less missile Strom you need to worry above

[Kalthariam]

Yeah, why play a level 20+ Caster, whom can't really function in the game anymore, and drop multiple feats to access the Epic Caster Cookies to make yourself somewhat useful in day to day play. When you can just make any mundane build effectively nearly a gish, for 5 levels, get epic spell caster cookies, and basically a plethora of endless QOL bonuses? All while being able to keep smacking people for plenty of damage as a martial class because you lose basically nothing for a laughable little 5 level dip?

Loremasters should not be getting any Epic Spellcasting Cookies. Period. They are not epic spellcasters, they are run on mundane players.

Loremasters are good with scrolls and wands, and languages, not magic itself, makes no sense why 5 levels of a class should be able to just simply do the same thing another class has to invest 21+ levels and multiple feats to get

[-XXX-]

Let's delve into the greater secrets granitng epic caster cookies then:

Warding - can be replaced by existing IG items/features.
Summoning - super awsome QoL feature for not just the character, but everybody in the party.
Scrying - unique feature, but less useful than it seems on paper.
Domination - only useful in spellcaster builds that aleardy have it in other form and don't really want/need it.
Evocation - only useful in spellcaster builds that aleardy have it in other form and don't really want/need it.
Illusion - can be replaced by existing IG items/features.
Necromancy - only useful in spellcaster builds that aleardy have it in other form and don't really want/need it.
Teleportation - can be replaced by existing IG items/features.

So we're talking -scry and -yoink here, neither of which actually increase a character's mechanical power in any way whatsoever. If anything, this hints that the GSF feat tax for obtaining these might be too high mostly due to how undesirable spell focus feats have become thanks to Arelith's saves bloat.

[Anomandaris]

Yeah, why play a level 20+ Caster, whom can't really function in the game anymore, and drop multiple feats to access the Epic Caster Cookies to make yourself somewhat useful in day to day play. When you can just make any mundane build effectively nearly a gish, for 5 levels, get epic spell caster cookies, and basically a plethora of endless QOL bonuses? All while being able to keep smacking people for plenty of damage as a martial class because you lose basically nothing for a laughable little 5 level dip?

The latter half of this is the key. It's AC and AB stacking, plus access to higher CL on things like Barkskin, that add very real mechanical value to the core martial class concept (bonking things better) that are problematic. It's also a 3/4 BAB progression class, with the bonus AB from 4 levels making it a 1:1 BaB class effectively.

Loremasters should not be getting any Epic Spellcasting Cookies. Period. They are not epic spellcasters, they are run on mundane players.

You would inadvertently gimp a number of arcane builds that do rely on the ability to access these cookies through LM, which would be disappointing. Be mindful that a changes like this have a wider impact than just the WM or other martials you are targeting. You're also just breaking a number of character/build concepts that aren't a huge problem, like Fighter/Rogue/LM.

Loremasters are good with scrolls and wands, and languages, not magic itself, makes no sense why 5 levels of a class should be able to just simply do the same thing another class has to invest 21+ levels and multiple feats to get

I don't care if a WM can scry me, it's super easy to counter. I don't care that it's a bit immersion breaking for a mundane to somehow know how to conjure their ally across the planes. It's a small item on a long list of immersion breaking implementations. I do care that they are otherwise generally mechanically overpowered, which is leveraged through PvP to influence RP narratives.

Please do not nerf LM and accidentally nerf mages. Please do not nerf access to LM cookies by martials/mundanes or increase gating, annoying a ton of players running these builds without actually fixing the problem or adding any value to the server experience. There is zero problem-solution fit there.

Adjust the core class balance issues such that no one cares if these builds can access QoL items through LM anymore.

[Kalthariam]

If you aren't an epic spell caster you should not get epic spell caster Focus cookies.

That includes Fighter/Rogue/Lm. That's just a literal Pure mundane class getting access to bonuses they should not have.

I'm very firm on my stance about this. The Martials of this server have been BLEEDING into Caster Territory for Years, with every little bit of magic Mundanes just easily get access to, the less and less promenant and useful Casters become.

Casters exist now to make scrolls and wands for Mundanes to go do everything with.

Mundane Classes should not be getting access to all the bits and bobs it takes a ton of sacrifices for casters get get for 5 bleeding levels of a class and just dumping skill points.

Inflated hp, and Infalted saves has made Vatican casters nearly worthless in the module already, most of them can easily be completely replaced with a vast plethora of Consumable items used by martial classes that still get all the benefits of being martial classes and NONE of the downsides.