Cost of Being Mundane

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Baseili
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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Baseili » Mon Jan 02, 2023 3:10 pm

Kalthariam wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:32 pm
That'd just kill the wand market. Wands are rarely solid often at any reasonable amount of profit, most times your lucky if your wands sell for 10% over the creation cost.

Making wands is already relatively expensive and requires you to spend a feat to be able to do.

don't need to spend a feat to buy potions from a vendor.
You are thinking purely from a creation point of view, you also don't need to spend any crafting skills to create wands it is purely a choice.

Further more how would the increase kill the wand market? Potions, by and large, would still be more expensive, limited and cumbersome while scrolls would sit roughly between the two. To give some clarity, even at four times the rate a wand of Freedom with 37 charges would be 30,000 as opposed to the current 35,150 for 37 potions of the exact same spell. Saving 5,000 seems a fair trade for 15 skill points.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by -XXX- » Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:06 pm

AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:55 pm
Unless I'm missing something, no, a mundane on a non-will save progression doesn't casually sit at 5% fail rate against all spells.
Most relevant will save targetting spells aren't lvl 9.

The notable exception here would be the Weird spell which is both lvl 9 and causes fear on a failed will save, but there are items and pieces of gear that further improve saves vs. fear (Sargeant's Cloak to name just one).

Even 33 will is still fine (btw. +2 UNI gear pieces exist - one doesn't even need to build for it to get there).


Most builds are going to have one low save that caps at 33. TBH if I got to pick which one of them it is going to be, it'd most likely always be will as the most dangerous DC spells and effects usually target fortitude or reflex.
Last edited by -XXX- on Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Tarkus the dog » Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:47 pm

the rune meta benefits palemasters the most

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Helsing » Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:22 pm

Baseili wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:03 pm
Counter offer, we raise the production cost of wands by 4 and narrow the gap that way.
Sure, raise the cost of spell component by 10 times, piety cost for spells by 10 times, everyone shall suffer the same pain.
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by AllPizzasArePersonal » Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:39 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:06 pm
AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:55 pm
Unless I'm missing something, no, a mundane on a non-will save progression doesn't casually sit at 5% fail rate against all spells.
Most relevant will save targetting spells aren't lvl 9.
Though several are and is a bit besides the point because the post I responded to claimed that mundane saves are so high that they only fail on nat 1s. This isn't true.
The notable exception here would be the Weird spell which is both lvl 9 and causes fear on a failed will save, but there are items and pieces of gear that further improve saves vs. fear ([Sergeant]'s Cloak to name just one).
Well, among others, although you're also quickly running into the save cap.
Even 33 will is still fine (btw. +2 UNI gear pieces exist - one doesn't even need to build for it to get there).
Firstly, yes, +2 uni save gear does exist, but what you said is that a mundane using +2 stat/+1 uni save gear only fails saves on nat 1s. This isn't true. If you'd like to talk about instead runing +2 uni items, that's fine, but it's not the post you made that I was responding to.

I think it's fine to argue that these saves are still good. Even dipping into +2 uni save pieces though, you can only increase your will save to 34 here since you run into the save cap. Which still is short of your claim that these builds only fail saves on nat 1s.
Most builds are going to have one low save that caps at 33.
Well, 25/5 for instance will have 2 low saves (reflex and will), but sure. They will. that's my point. But what you said is that they won't have any low saves and can only fail on nat 1s. Which isn't true.

Edit: to be clear, I don't really disagree that mundanes can and do have fine saves. This is a thread that suffers heavily from very subjective takes being taken as absolute, indisputable fact and the claim in the post I responded to just struck me as one that was so obviously false that it was worth pointing out the hyperbole. The entire thread would likely be more productive with less exaggeration from everyone involved :)

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Kalthariam » Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:18 am

Baseili wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 3:10 pm
Kalthariam wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:32 pm
That'd just kill the wand market. Wands are rarely solid often at any reasonable amount of profit, most times your lucky if your wands sell for 10% over the creation cost.

Making wands is already relatively expensive and requires you to spend a feat to be able to do.

don't need to spend a feat to buy potions from a vendor.
You are thinking purely from a creation point of view, you also don't need to spend any crafting skills to create wands it is purely a choice.

Further more how would the increase kill the wand market? Potions, by and large, would still be more expensive, limited and cumbersome while scrolls would sit roughly between the two. To give some clarity, even at four times the rate a wand of Freedom with 37 charges would be 30,000 as opposed to the current 35,150 for 37 potions of the exact same spell. Saving 5,000 seems a fair trade for 15 skill points.
It costs a feat, and it costs gold.

You might not consider a feat cost to be a "cost" but many people do.

You don't need a feat to create herbalism potions. You just need to level up, gather materials and walk up to the crafting bench and hit a few buttons. Takes a bit of time, but requires nothing from your actual build.

Something costing a feat is the trade off for not having crafting points.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:42 am

AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:39 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:06 pm
Most relevant will save targetting spells aren't lvl 9.
Though several are
Name them.
AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:39 pm
Even 33 will is still fine (btw. +2 UNI gear pieces exist - one doesn't even need to build for it to get there).
Firstly, yes, +2 uni save gear does exist, but what you said is that a mundane using +2 stat/+1 uni save gear only fails saves on nat 1s. This isn't true.
That's not really what I said. I was alluding to the fact that 2 stat +1 UNI would normally be a hard 5% enchantment, but with runes other combinations are possible. You're wrestling a strawman over there :lol:

Anyway, this is possible even on the 25/5 Fighter/WM muggle who needs to cross-class spellcraft:

11 base will save
+5 WIS modifier (8 base, +5 owl potion, +7 gear)
+20 save cap (+13 UNI, +7 spellcraft)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
36 will save
AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:39 pm
Well, 25/5 for instance will have 2 low saves (reflex and will)
That's only true if the WM levels weren't taken before lvl 20, in which case... -relevel.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Svrtr » Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:15 am

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:42 am
AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:39 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:06 pm
Most relevant will save targetting spells aren't lvl 9.
Though several are
Name them.
AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:39 pm
Even 33 will is still fine (btw. +2 UNI gear pieces exist - one doesn't even need to build for it to get there).
Firstly, yes, +2 uni save gear does exist, but what you said is that a mundane using +2 stat/+1 uni save gear only fails saves on nat 1s. This isn't true.
That's not really what I said. I was alluding to the fact that 2 stat +1 UNI would normally be a hard 5% enchantment, but with runes other combinations are possible. You're wrestling a strawman over there :lol:

Anyway, this is possible even on the 25/5 Fighter/WM muggle who needs to cross-class spellcraft:

11 base will save
+5 WIS modifier (8 base, +5 owl potion, +7 gear)
+20 save cap (+13 UNI, +7 spellcraft)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
36 will save
AllPizzasArePersonal wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:39 pm
Well, 25/5 for instance will have 2 low saves (reflex and will)
That's only true if the WM levels weren't taken before lvl 20, in which case... -relevel.
There is not a single 25/5 who is gearing both 13 unisaves and 7 wisdom to hit the will cap, especially not with there only being 11 gear slots and a lot of unique crafted gear that cannot fit unisaves upon them where unisave is secondary to STR and con (of which you need to gear 5 and 7, preferably 6 and 8 to lose that little bit less when dispelled)

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:00 am

You guys realize you are missing the plus 8 from feats, something the 25/5 wm has in abundance, right? Luck of the heroes, +1, strong soul +1, iron will +2, epic will +4. And yes, you really are gearing strength con and wisdom to 7 on a build like that, using your cl 30 potions to top it off at the end. And yes, you are adding as much uni saves as possible, even going as far as to use the +2 uni saves items and double stating them when you can afford them (thank you wizard and cleric friends).

I'm not going to toss out numbers because I am too lazy to do the math and someone is going to come along and play "gotcha!" anyways when I inevitably fail at math like its high school all over again, but I think it suffice to say that my saves are going to be pretty high, especially when you factor in pray. So, if you run into me playing a build like this, your best bet is likely to do hit and run tactics until I am bored. The high level NwN way.


-- Late edit: That being said, 20/7/3divine dip is a much better spread for Arelith, just swap out wisdom for charisma when gearing and enjoy the vastly superior build.

-- And even later edit: Ok, it's not as easy as I made it sound above, I just love me a damage dealing shotgun. A good 20/7/3 is a lot harder to gear and has more choices you have to make in its feats, and it has less hps.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Helsing » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:04 am

And question is "Is 25/5 the only mundane build here?" There are a lot more mundane bds that not include fighter, like rogue and swashbuckler. I'm sure gearing saves for these will be more difficult than 25/5 or 20/7/3.

But all discussion here about mundane seems like they are assuming its an 25/5.
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by chris a gogo » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:41 am

As stated in by the OP if you can use wands your not mundane for the purpose of this argument/thread.
So the only mundane are fighter and barb as they don't count rogue as you get umd.

Became kind of a silly thread at that point.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Quidix » Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:32 am

List of mundane classes without access to UMD:
- Fighter
- Weaponmaster
- Barbarian
- Swashbuckler
- Monk
- Cavalier
- Earthkin defender
- Vigilante
- Divine champion
- Knight

25/5 might be the most popular, but it's hardly the only 'proper' mundane build.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by MRFTW » Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:50 am

Invisible blade, too.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by -XXX- » Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:45 pm

Svrtr wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:15 am
There is not a single 25/5 who is gearing both 13 unisaves and 7 wisdom to hit the will cap, especially not with there only being 11 gear slots and a lot of unique crafted gear that cannot fit unisaves upon them where unisave is secondary to STR and con (of which you need to gear 5 and 7, preferably 6 and 8 to lose that little bit less when dispelled)
Yeah, nobody's doing that because it's an overkill.

Currently one needs to maybe worry about Weird (being a lvl 9 spell with a partial will save), which causes fear - between sargeant's cloak and dragonbone plate we're getting +7 saves vs. fear toward our saves cap. That means all we really need is +10 UNI from our gear and +3 saves vs spells from our 15 cross-class spellcraft ranks.
Enter something like the Serpent's Woe Aegis (which confers +2 Will) and the math becomes even easier.

Maxing out WIS alongside STR and CON is doable on 10 pieces of gear - it can be even done on 7 pieces once we enter the hard 5% masterwork runic territory. All of that without waiving the essential discipline.

Anyway, that only serves to demonstrate that even in such extreme corner cases like a 25/5 split it's still doable.
Frankly, I really don't see the point of this thread since most melee builds can casually splash something like the Specialist or Loremaster to both skilldump spellcraft and gain access to scrolls/wands/magical consumables.
At this point it might be worth considering whether the perks of a purely mundane build are actually worth everything that they're giving up.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Baseili » Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:37 pm

Kalthariam wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:18 am
It costs a feat, and it costs gold.

You might not consider a feat cost to be a "cost" but many people do.

You don't need a feat to create herbalism potions. You just need to level up, gather materials and walk up to the crafting bench and hit a few buttons. Takes a bit of time, but requires nothing from your actual build.

Something costing a feat is the trade off for not having crafting points.
It is still an optional choice and not relevant to the discussion, nor the topic at hand which is the gulf in terms of costs though at this point this thread is rapidly descending into a farce and not worth further attention.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:14 pm

I'm sorry, but why is it 25 / 5 and not 23 / 7? Wouldn't you want that level 7 on Weapon Master?


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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by LichBait » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:20 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:14 pm
I'm sorry, but why is it 25 / 5 and not 23 / 7? Wouldn't you want that level 7 on Weapon Master?
The perks of 25 fighter outweigh the extra crit threat range for high crit range weapons like scimitar. It's a difference of 10-20 vs 12-20 (or 13-20, I can't remember exactly) for a functionally +5 (DR piercing) weapon. The extra AC also makes up for the loss of tumble AC by cross classing.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:33 pm

LichBait wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:20 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 8:14 pm
I'm sorry, but why is it 25 / 5 and not 23 / 7? Wouldn't you want that level 7 on Weapon Master?
The perks of 25 fighter outweigh the extra crit threat range for high crit range weapons like scimitar. It's a difference of 10-20 vs 12-20 (or 13-20, I can't remember exactly) for a functionally +5 (DR piercing) weapon. The extra AC also makes up for the loss of tumble AC by cross classing.
That makes sense, thank you! 😊


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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Kalthariam » Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:28 am

Baseili wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:37 pm
Kalthariam wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:18 am
It costs a feat, and it costs gold.

You might not consider a feat cost to be a "cost" but many people do.

You don't need a feat to create herbalism potions. You just need to level up, gather materials and walk up to the crafting bench and hit a few buttons. Takes a bit of time, but requires nothing from your actual build.

Something costing a feat is the trade off for not having crafting points.
It is still an optional choice and not relevant to the discussion, nor the topic at hand which is the gulf in terms of costs though at this point this thread is rapidly descending into a farce and not worth further attention.
The issue is people are complaining that being mundane and unable to use wands is expensive.

Forcing other people to end up suffering because someone else is suffering isn't a productive route. Increasing the costs of wands is not going to help mundanes at all, and if anything will hurt them because less wands will be in the market for those times they are in groups with people who can use wands but aren't actually casters.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Arienette » Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:35 pm

Algol wrote:
Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:01 pm
Another economic hurdle on being a mundane is cost of gear. A caster can do 1-30 completely naked, and I doubt many caster characters bother buying/ crafting non end game items. A mundane needs to buy level appropriate items (which are usually more expensive than their caster counterparts) to do content a caster can do easily without spending anything.
This is a big deal. I have broken it down in other threads and won’t do it again here.

But the amount of adamantium and other top tier materials that something like a 25/5 needs to get “fully geared” is a huge pain to collect. Then add another few hundred thousand gold if you want to buy a Zard to keen your weapon. And then after all that, collecting a decent supply of consumables? Yikes.

As far as I am concerned, leave consumables how they are, but make adamantium more accessible to the characters who actually need it.

As it sits, you have characters who can get addy, but don’t need it, selling it to characters who need it but cannot get it.

If I can save 150k on my mundane’s metallic gear, it won’t bother me so much to pay 500 gold for a haste potion.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Kalthariam » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:10 am

Adamantine is accessible.. there's just people who are greedy and holding back actually making it available.

I know people whom have literally stacks of the ore on characters, but they don't sell them because they don't want the value to go down, and refuse to put it out to market to create scarcity.

Adamantine isn't -that- rare I've gotten every bit of adamantine my mundane needed by hand, and had 25+ ingots I've used to help other people.

Honestly the worst parts is when your gear requires special gemstones and they all get eaten up by new fancy items (Star sapphires and the wands for example)

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Wethrinea » Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:42 am

I mostly play mundanes or hybrid casters (Ranger and bard), which both rely a lot on gear and consumables to be effective. And I have never really had any issues getting enough gold to gear them. In fact, the only time I have been mildly challenged has been with a warlock.

There are some really easy ways to get a comfortable profit out of nearly any adventure:
- Put points in open lock and disable trap. You don't need more than a few ranks + some dweomer gear and/or thieves tools to crack 90% of all the chests you will ever encounter. Or use Knock scrolls.
- Put points in Search. Every point, rank or bonus, is a 1% point increase in the chance of finding extra treasures any time you loot something. This quickly adds up.
- Put spare points in appraise, get them gloves and rings, or find a high appraise friend. Scroll finds will make you bathe in cash.
- Take Freelancer writs. Your xp reward from writs will be slow, but the gold payout is massive, especially at early levels.

In addition to that, the price of runes and most high end materials have dropped dramatically over the past year. End-game gearing has never been cheaper. And if you do level a little bit slower by doing Freelancer writs, by the time you get to 30 you'll be swimming in gold anyway.
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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:59 pm

Wethrinea wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:42 am
There are some really easy ways to get a comfortable profit out of nearly any adventure:
- Put points in open lock and disable trap. You don't need more than a few ranks + some dweomer gear and/or thieves tools to crack 90% of all the chests you will ever encounter. Or use Knock scrolls.
Already doing that and it's really alright but not enough to make a serious difference on it's own.
Wethrinea wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:42 am
- Put points in Search. Every point, rank or bonus, is a 1% point increase in the chance of finding extra treasures any time you loot something. This quickly adds up.
I cant afford it on 90% of the builds I play. I dont know how anyone can, except dedicated roguish classes and ranger. Those are only a few classes out of the 40+ classes we have at this point. The gold income alone does not worth the skill points investment for most classes and builds because what good is end-game gear if you cripple your build to get it faster.
Wethrinea wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:42 am
- Put spare points in appraise, get them gloves and rings, or find a high appraise friend. Scroll finds will make you bathe in cash.
Cant afford it, same as above, and it's also an awful skill to invest ranks in regardless. It scales in an asymptote, you can get 25+ appraise just from gear easily and further investment is quite negligible.
Wethrinea wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:42 am
- Take Freelancer writs. Your xp reward from writs will be slow, but the gold payout is massive, especially at early levels.
I tried both and I think the difference in gold is not meaningful. I also think that leveling much less efficiently and ending up with a ginormous adventure exp pool (more like an ocean with the freelancer progression) that one cannot realistically take advantage of unless they suddenly quit adventuring life to become a chancellor instead, is a huge waste of time. You're mostly getting your gear in an earlier level because you level slower.
Wethrinea wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:42 am
In addition to that, the price of runes and most high end materials have dropped dramatically over the past year. End-game gearing has never been cheaper. And if you do level a little bit slower by doing Freelancer writs, by the time you get to 30 you'll be swimming in gold anyway.
This is incorrect. the only thing that became more common is blade runes. The rest of the runes are as expensive as ever, and even more. Adamantine hasnt really changed it's average market price from 50k gold an ingot average for literally years.
The only thing that changed is that chest bashing no longer gives loot and most writ rewards and gold income methods have been nerfed. So saying that things are cheaper in a vacuum doesnt mean much (and isnt even true for most endgame materials).

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:57 pm

These items are top of the line and are supposed to be expensive.
It's not really a market problem either - it's a chicken and the egg issue for most mundane builds - they need runed adamantine grade gear before they can go get adamantine and runic materials on their own.
AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:59 pm
This is incorrect. the only thing that became more common is blade runes. The rest of the runes are as expensive as ever, and even more.
The prices of Forged and Woven masterwork runes went down 20%.
Blade runes went down 80%.
Bejeweled runes are holding price (because every character needs 3 = the demand is simply too high).
Blueleaf remains to be garbage (I wish Etched runes could be applied on amulets, then Bejeweled runes might go down).

Then again, if a character couldn't afford a rune at 500K, they likely can't at 400K and probably wouldn't be able to at 300K either.
AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:59 pm
Adamantine hasnt really changed it's average market price from 50k gold an ingot average for literally years.
Yes, because ~20K for a chunk is actully fair once we take into account the amount of time, effort and luck involved to get them.
Add some markup for smithing work and the settlement tax and you can easily land at 50K per ingot.

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Re: Cost of Being Mundane

Post by Eters » Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:24 pm

Having been playing a mundane for close to a year I feel like I can comment on this thread. The character I play has access to lore just to point that out, I've been trying various dungeons solo in order to acquire coin in the off-time when the activity is low, or when the mind is just too tired to delve into roleplay and I require more of a mindless grind through an area.

You do not need to use potions for everything, in fact there are a few use/day items that make your dungeoning adventures a little bit less painful, for example horn of goodness/evil, it lasts for 99 minutes and gives magic circle vs alignment, Fordor's spine gives a CL 3 bull strength but you can drink a player crafted potion afterwards to reach that +5 STR without needing to use two potions. Girdles of fortitude give you a 15 CL bear's endurance, similar to that of a player crafted potion, a barbarian's helmet (if you can use it) also offers a CL 15 bull strength. Battlemedic armor gives you 2 casts of monstrous regeneration, and the improved invisibility cloaks give you two casts of improved invisibility with CL 7, Scabbards of blessing give you bless and aid at a low CL 2 and 3 and brooches of shielding give you the shield spell for a CL of 5.

Assuming you have all of the above and use it diligently in a rather tedious dance of switching items you need only to use a few potions to be set for any casual venture, but the moment you will target higher level areas in order to get a chance to earn the sweet exotic runics you will start to go through your consumables at a pretty steady rate.

That isn't an issue in itself, consumables are meant to come and go, and their scarcity depends on the market, it fluctuates and changes but in my year of playing my mundane I've never truly found myself lacking any dungeoning potion. That said if you do want to make a solid enough income to keep going then you will have to strike mid level dungeons consistently, which feels usually more like a chore than a joy, and makes you feel like a scumbag when you find that your mid level dungeoning grind just ruined the writwork of people who are actually level appropriate for the spot.

In a group, you will excel with the presence of a mage, a cleric, a bard or anyone that can buff you, and I think this is where you'll shine the most, but the venturing alone during down time will feel miserable. The same can be said about the occasional PvP where your tools are all tied to your coin-purse and your luck with finding consumables prior to said encounter, and while I pointed out earlier that I never truly suffered when it came to PvE potions, PvP potions however are not always stocked and the consumables which require herbalism seem to often be scarce and missing, Death ward and Freedom of Movement are rarities that make every encounter a mathematical equation before being a true mettle of skill. Even this isn't an issue in itself, for the price of beastly damage and high AB/AC you are a wetpaper in the face of magic, just as mages are a wetpaper for your essenced beastly crit infused weapon.

Then comes the third point which is inventory management, which is truly obscene when it comes to the class, you'll find it funny if I was to tell you that a mundane's quickslots are harder to manage than a mage's, between the scrolls, the potions, the abilities you will find three bars to hardly be fitting, and since one cannot exactly use the radial to access consumables it's often the case of mundanes to just walk around with their bags always open. The space management is hideous because outside of a whole page of scrolls, a whole page of rods, a whole page of miscellaneous items with use/day , a whole page for essences and a whole two pages of potions to be somewhat competitive, plus a page for all the other random items, bombs etc you will often find that despite the 20000 lbs carryweight that your godly 50 STR steroids infused barbarian weaponmaster horc has, you can barely pick up items.

Which in itself is not an issue, but add point one, two and three together and you get a category of classes that is absolutely tedious to play in the day to day basis, excels in groups and in PvP when it happens, if they have all the necessary items, potions, gear and consumables ready, and suffers a pretty steady growing competition from hybrids which can achieve the same things (to a lesser extent perhaps but with far more QoL).

That's the current situation, If I was to say that I know how to solve it I'd be lying, but the tediousness of the mundane classes is absolutely a real issue, and while the costs themselves are not high, the frustrations born from the various little inconveniences do pile up.

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