What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

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What is your sentiment on Arelith's current leveling speed and rate of xp gain?

It is too fast
89
40%
It is fine
106
47%
It is too slow
30
13%
 
Total votes: 225

Xerah
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Xerah » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:58 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:20 pm
I also don't believe the statement that players won't use a L12 cleric vs. a L30 cleric. The truth is that players respect gravitas created through roleplay a thousand times more than mere levels.
It does make me wonder if people actually play on Arelith when they make these claims.

The level 30s tend to have been around longer and have more relationships than the level 12 (thus more people know their RP and why they'd go to them), but it has nothing to do with the level difference on who goes to who to "cast" remove curse. One thing that I do when in leadership positions is try to find the character's "thing" and make them do the "thing" (i.e. if someone talked about learning about curses, well, we're going to find a curse for them to fix)
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Cowbot » Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:29 am

Ork wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:20 pm
I don't think we need to have a triangle population of characters, and I also don't believe the statement that players won't use a L12 cleric vs. a L30 cleric. The truth is that players respect gravitas created through roleplay a thousand times more than mere levels.
I don't disagree we need a triangle population of characters. In fact, I concluded the same thing. We only need a triangle population if we want finding RP to be as easy for low levels as high levels.

You make a good point about gravitas created through roleplay. Let's examine this closer.

I think you understand this Ork, but I want to clearly define things to help discussion: Human beings are more likely to go to people they know well and trust to solve their problems than relative strangers. "Gravitas" in this discussion is going to refer to this propensity to seek out friends. It is increased by gaining trust, doing favors, and building comradery through shared experience.

Here's the structure of my proceeding argument:

1) Level 30s can solve more problems than lowbies
2) Level 30s leverage this ability to gain resources faster
3) Level 30s leverage their resources to build gravitas at a faster rate than lowbies.
4) Thus if the goal is to attract more problems to solve via gravitas, being level 30 is still in the best interest of the player.

Even if gravitas is valued more highly than levels directly, it is still in my direct interest to become level 30 quickly in the majority of cases.
___________________________________________________________________________________

Let's look at clerics again. I will keep faith constant for now.

We have a set of problems that can be solved by clerics of Helm. Within this set of problems, we have problems that can be solved by all clerics, or problems that can be solved only by clerics of a certain level or above. There are no problems that exist for clerics of Helm that can only be solved by lower level clerics of Helm.

If we examine this set of problems, we can clearly see that the scope of problems that can be solved by a level 30 cleric of Helm includes the entire set. Lower leveled clerics can only solve a portion of that set. Thus, it is to the player's advantage to get level 30 quickly so that they have access to more problems to solve.

High leveled characters often have been around longer and know more people (as Xerah said). This means they naturally have built more gravitas. However, this isn't the whole picture. Because of the advantages of being level 30, they also can create gravitas faster than low-leveled characters.

Level 30s have access to greater material and social resources than low leveled characters because they can solve more problems. They can kill the bigger bad guys and get more loot. They can do bigger favors and get more social capital.

They can then use these resources and social capital to mentor and assist lower leveled characters at a quality that far surpasses that of low leveled characters, especially now with the writ changes. Level 30s are better at creating gravitas with lowbies than lowbies are at creating it among themselves.

They also have more ability to solve problems (see above), and thus more opportunity to gain favors and build relationships among their peers.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Roleplay wise, it's just better to be level 30 except for very specific, niche concepts. I believe people instinctually "get" this, and that is why people often rush 30 before seriously committing to social interaction.

Even mundane things that low leveled people should be able to do are crowded out by the large number of max-level characters. It's lore-aligned for a level 3 or 4 PC to be a guard. But, what duties can a level 3 guard perform while on Arelith? Arrest people? Stop a fight? Keep a prisoner from escaping or being rescued? Investigate a murder (what happens when he finds them)?

There are valid and responsible reasons to want to push for 30, and restricting this just arbitrarily gates content to people who don't want to spend hours grinding.

I would be in favor of even faster leveling except that the leveling process on Arelith is pretty darn fun on its own, and it isn't slow by any means. XP isn't the only currency with which to buy player entertainment, but it certainly is one. Removing that factor from Arelith would just remove a ton of players. My conclusion, then, is that we have a good balance of fun grind without putting too tall a gate between new characters and maximum RP potential.

If you want to increase RP at low and mid levels without decreasing leveling speed, one simple solution is to make stronger incentives to group up for content. The act of finding a group forces interaction, which is the core of RP. Don't remove the value of solo play entirely, though. Sometimes I don't feel like talking and just want to kill goblins, and I'm sure other people have those moments too.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:52 pm

Cowbot wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:29 am
Ork wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:20 pm
I don't think we need to have a triangle population of characters, and I also don't believe the statement that players won't use a L12 cleric vs. a L30 cleric. The truth is that players respect gravitas created through roleplay a thousand times more than mere levels.
I don't disagree we need a triangle population of characters. In fact, I concluded the same thing. We only need a triangle population if we want finding RP to be as easy for low levels as high levels.

You make a good point about gravitas created through roleplay. Let's examine this closer.

I think you understand this Ork, but I want to clearly define things to help discussion: Human beings are more likely to go to people they know well and trust to solve their problems than relative strangers. "Gravitas" in this discussion is going to refer to this propensity to seek out friends. It is increased by gaining trust, doing favors, and building comradery through shared experience.

Here's the structure of my proceeding argument:

1) Level 30s can solve more problems than lowbies
2) Level 30s leverage this ability to gain resources faster
3) Level 30s leverage their resources to build gravitas at a faster rate than lowbies.
4) Thus if the goal is to attract more problems to solve via gravitas, being level 30 is still in the best interest of the player.

Even if gravitas is valued more highly than levels directly, it is still in my direct interest to become level 30 quickly in the majority of cases.
___________________________________________________________________________________

Let's look at clerics again. I will keep faith constant for now.

We have a set of problems that can be solved by clerics of Helm. Within this set of problems, we have problems that can be solved by all clerics, or problems that can be solved only by clerics of a certain level or above. There are no problems that exist for clerics of Helm that can only be solved by lower level clerics of Helm.

If we examine this set of problems, we can clearly see that the scope of problems that can be solved by a level 30 cleric of Helm includes the entire set. Lower leveled clerics can only solve a portion of that set. Thus, it is to the player's advantage to get level 30 quickly so that they have access to more problems to solve.

High leveled characters often have been around longer and know more people (as Xerah said). This means they naturally have built more gravitas. However, this isn't the whole picture. Because of the advantages of being level 30, they also can create gravitas faster than low-leveled characters.

Level 30s have access to greater material and social resources than low leveled characters because they can solve more problems. They can kill the bigger bad guys and get more loot. They can do bigger favors and get more social capital.

They can then use these resources and social capital to mentor and assist lower leveled characters at a quality that far surpasses that of low leveled characters, especially now with the writ changes. Level 30s are better at creating gravitas with lowbies than lowbies are at creating it among themselves.

They also have more ability to solve problems (see above), and thus more opportunity to gain favors and build relationships among their peers.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Roleplay wise, it's just better to be level 30 except for very specific, niche concepts. I believe people instinctually "get" this, and that is why people often rush 30 before seriously committing to social interaction.

Even mundane things that low leveled people should be able to do are crowded out by the large number of max-level characters. It's lore-aligned for a level 3 or 4 PC to be a guard. But, what duties can a level 3 guard perform while on Arelith? Arrest people? Stop a fight? Keep a prisoner from escaping or being rescued? Investigate a murder (what happens when he finds them)?

There are valid and responsible reasons to want to push for 30, and restricting this just arbitrarily gates content to people who don't want to spend hours grinding.

I would be in favor of even faster leveling except that the leveling process on Arelith is pretty darn fun on its own, and it isn't slow by any means. XP isn't the only currency with which to buy player entertainment, but it certainly is one. Removing that factor from Arelith would just remove a ton of players. My conclusion, then, is that we have a good balance of fun grind without putting too tall a gate between new characters and maximum RP potential.

If you want to increase RP at low and mid levels without decreasing leveling speed, one simple solution is to make stronger incentives to group up for content. The act of finding a group forces interaction, which is the core of RP. Don't remove the value of solo play entirely, though. Sometimes I don't feel like talking and just want to kill goblins, and I'm sure other people have those moments too.
RP needing to be level 30 is a pile of donkey dung.

The only reason people rush to 30 is they want to rely on mechanics over RP.

The key is mechanics are not needed for RP whatso ever. RP can be done well at level 3 just as well as level 30 and here is why. For those who ever RP'd in a text based forum, there was zero mechanics involved on the screen. It was pure RP and imagination.

Here is a question for those who think level 30 has to be had before you can RP.

Have you ever had PvP simply with emotes and not one time having to go actually hostile and use game mechanics? Im guessing everyone who always rushes to level 30 before RP will answer no.

I for one and i know many players who have had this type of RP, and usually its alot more fun than actual mechanics. Why would I say this? simply put, it uses your imagination instead of random dice rolls and game mechanics.

A wrestling match between a level 30 and a level 3 can be done and the level 3 has a chance to win due to having better emoted moves and both parties using their brains over mechanics. This has been done and the RP afterward created lasted for months as those two kept their distance, even though the level 30 was this super dragon killer, and the level 3 was just a scrappy hin who tended a garden who didnt do writs or any mechanical boosts to gain levels.

RP cant be done until level 30 is a crap once again, that statement is for those who simply value the WOW rush to max level experience over the DnD experience. Those players who like the slow leveling and RP from the beginning tend to be the old PnP players imo. I for one am one of those. RP beats mechanics everytime in my book, so needing level 30 is an excuse, and a bad one at that.
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Cowbot » Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:26 am

Thank you for the response Ebonstar. It's good to see another old PnP player about. :D
Ebonstar wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:52 pm

Here is a question for those who think level 30 has to be had before you can RP.

Have you ever had PvP simply with emotes and not one time having to go actually hostile and use game mechanics? Im guessing everyone who always rushes to level 30 before RP will answer no.
I have had many PvP encounters like this in my time playing NWN. I enjoy them a lot more than the actual real-time pvp NWN typically offers.

I will rush to 30 any time my character concept would be easier to implement at level 30. This is most of the time. For some concepts it doesn't matter, and for those I level much slower.

This technically makes me not one of the people you were talking about, as I don't always rush to level 30. However, I think if someone else always rushed to 30 because they always wanted to play concepts that were easier to implement at level 30 that they could still appreciate a good emote pvp battle.

I for one and i know many players who have had this type of RP, and usually its alot more fun than actual mechanics. Why would I say this? simply put, it uses your imagination instead of random dice rolls and game mechanics.
The difference between those games and Arelith is that Arelith has visualizations. I've played pretend-only games before too, and had a great time. However, emoting the existence of a chair is a different experience than having the physical placeable to put down and move around as a prop. I think the popularity of NWN over old-school MUDs and whatnot has a lot to do with this graphical boost.

Unfortunately, such placeables and props require materials that have to be gathered. Such gathering is easier at level 30. They also require crafting skill ranks and points, and crafting skill points become more numerous when you level. Other things are harder/impossible to craft without sufficient rank. There is a table that requires a DC 27 carpentry roll, for example.

The fact of the matter is Arelith uses props and enforces it via rules (WYSIWYG). This strongly incentivizes even players who want to engage in casual RP (no/little combat) to level up quickly.

A wrestling match between a level 30 and a level 3 can be done and the level 3 has a chance to win due to having better emoted moves and both parties using their brains over mechanics. This has been done and the RP afterward created lasted for months as those two kept their distance, even though the level 30 was this super dragon killer, and the level 3 was just a scrappy hin who tended a garden who didnt do writs or any mechanical boosts to gain levels.
I am glad everyone involved had fun. However, given how many foreign learners of English play on the server, I'd be very hesitant to implement a server-wide standard of allowing those with superior writing skill to win.

RP cant be done until level 30 is a crap once again, that statement is for those who simply value the WOW rush to max level experience over the DnD experience. Those players who like the slow leveling and RP from the beginning tend to be the old PnP players imo. I for one am one of those. RP beats mechanics everytime in my book, so needing level 30 is an excuse, and a bad one at that.
I would advise against assuming other people's intentions and values in the future. It does not promote good discussion.

I do not value the WoW rush to max level over the DnD experience. I disliked WoW when I tried it. I am also an old PnP player. Although I do want to point out that some players have enjoyed the mechanical aspect of D&D since its conception (Gary Gygax made his modules extremely hard for a reason), that's kind of beside the point. I agree using one's imagination to become another person in a fantasy world has always been a core element of roleplaying.

I continue to hold that the incentive structure itself on Arelith strongly encourages players, whether they value roleplaying or not, to gain level 30 quickly. Being level 30 just makes many different kinds of narratives a lot easier to plan and implement.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:16 am

Cowbot wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:26 am
Thank you for the response Ebonstar. It's good to see another old PnP player about. :D
Ebonstar wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:52 pm

A wrestling match between a level 30 and a level 3 can be done and the level 3 has a chance to win due to having better emoted moves and both parties using their brains over mechanics. This has been done and the RP afterward created lasted for months as those two kept their distance, even though the level 30 was this super dragon killer, and the level 3 was just a scrappy hin who tended a garden who didnt do writs or any mechanical boosts to gain levels.
I am glad everyone involved had fun. However, given how many foreign learners of English play on the server, I'd be very hesitant to implement a server-wide standard of allowing those with superior writing skill to win.
I think it's also worth noting that it is, effectively, entirely at the discretion of the level 30 whether combat will take place in emotes or mechanical PvP. If the level 30 wants to actually throw a punch and do real mechanical damage to a level 3, they can do so (provided preliminary hostile RP is performed, which I believe we are taking as given), and they would almost certainly win. It's an option, yes, but how many people will take it when mechanical PvP is not only an easier thing to win but also has a clearly defined "win condition" of subduing or killing your opponent? I'm sure a few would--if anyone emoted punching my level 30 healer cleric, I'd probably have her keel over immediately despite having 300ish HP because she's supposed to be a delicate flower of an elf--but how much of the server population would do that?
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Eyeliner » Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:00 am

Cowbot wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:26 am
I continue to hold that the incentive structure itself on Arelith strongly encourages players, whether they value roleplaying or not, to gain level 30 quickly. Being level 30 just makes many different kinds of narratives a lot easier to plan and implement.
I think this is true if not just common sense. However you're always going to get pushback on the forums when you say it. I've come to think a lot of discussion here is based on trying to manifest a reality in the game that's different than what it actually is and there's really no arguing against someone doing that.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Cowbot » Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:37 am

Eyeliner wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:00 am
I think this is true if not just common sense. However you're always going to get pushback on the forums when you say it. I've come to think a lot of discussion here is based on trying to manifest a reality in the game that's different than what it actually is and there's really no arguing against someone doing that.
Well, I am not really arguing against the position that RP before 30 is preferable. I am arguing that with the current system, a slower leveling speed unfairly gates narrative content from new characters. Because of that, if we don't change the underlying systems, then I am against a slower leveling speed.

But, that doesn't mean we can't get everything we want. If the designers and admins want to, they could change the incentive structure and produce a different environment. Knowing what the incentives are that are guiding player behavior is an important thing for them to consider when they are weighing whether such changes should be implemented and how to do them, if so.

I think those favoring slow leveling have raised really good points too. The satisfaction of accomplishment after working for something is real. It's fun working towards a goal, mechanical or otherwise, and achieving it despite obstacles. Power fantasies are also a big part of why many people play, and this is played out via the leveling process.

If they wanted to slow leveling down, I'd recommend looking at a few things to empower lower level players:

[*] Divorce crafting skill/points from character level
[*] Reduce crafting DCs of purely aesthetic props
[*] Allow/create more "theater" zones where people can setup events without NPCs (hostile or otherwise) bothering them, and provide a safe way to travel to these locations (there may already be a lot of these that I am simply unaware of).
[*] Clearing most roads of hostile monsters to facilitate travel.
[*] Scale housing costs to character level (making it cheaper for lowbies who are less able to farm)
[*] Expand on alternative ways to solve problems outside of PvP
[*] More ways to gather crafting materials outside of combat zones (such as the spore farms, but for all materials needed for placeables)

Maybe the above aren't good ideas, but I think they're worth discussing if we want to lower the incentives to shoot up to level 30 so that we mitigate the harm of slower leveling speeds. Unfortunately, pvp is a big one, because it is often the go-to for "solving" problems and a low level character is at a clear and massive disadvantage. However, I can't think of a good way around that.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Good Character » Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:08 pm

Decided to make a new character after this thread was made. My opinion was reinforced: easier leveling is more attractive. I think this revolves around how the server is made up, such as the points above. However, there are other points to address:

1. Partying up is difficult and not very enjoyable unless you're in Cordor, Skal, or Andunor early on. You begin to lose that central hub. If still possible, this should be changed to encourage more especially since we have access to the portal system - not just for dungeoning's sake, but to help allow players interact and roleplay more consistently.

2. Arelith continues to grow in playercount. Even now with the quick leveling early on it's difficult to find a dungeon that hasn't been gone through.

3. Frankly, dungeons are not scary and don't really change too much. POTM I think does this well with the early dungeons (never hit later levels) where sometimes random events trigger and sometimes they don't and all the enemies are scary even when you've got a min-max build. Haven't played POTM in years so I'm not sure if this has changed.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by preggy » Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:42 am

As an old timer who was about way back when, over a decade ago when the pace was indeed truely glacial I'd offer my own two cents on it.

There were usually a number of level 30's across each faction, long term players invested in their characters and story. I recall by the time my character hit 30 he's been involved in a number of plots, plagues and other fun little goings on, all with fairly minimal PVP.

But also, because there are more trips out (Rather than just whatever you have the writs for) you see so much more of the server, interact with so many people. Some of the comments against are that "There arent people to group up with running this content" but this is really an issue which has been caused by faster leveling. The only element that faster leveling makes easier is finding a group for "End game" level 30 group content.

Leveling through sheer grinding was the fastest way to go about it, though I often chose to simply enjoy the ride.

Do I think it was too slow then? Most definately.
Is it better now or worse? - Really hard to say. The server, the landscape and NWN has come a long, long way since then and we as players have also grown. Leveling is now exceptionally quick (You can easily hit 20 within a week) and 30 not long after that and I do feel this takes something from the experience.

I think the process being a little (It does not need to be considerably) slower would be better for the overall experience.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Aftond » Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:40 am

The increased exp helps alot when it comes to Keeping player interest.

I've invited My Friends to come try the server out like 2-3 Times and it never lasted past couple days until this last time where we played for atleast a couple of weeks and had a blast! Some of them got engaged in faction rp and are Still around, and some Lost interest. I think it depends on your personality.

Leveling casually with writs and actually making progress during a work week without ruining sleep is great.

Characters lasting shorter Times because of exp is likely a correlation rather than the cause. Ever since EE was released and the server got exposed to a larger audience, Ive noticed way more characters just dissapearing.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by xanrael » Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:45 pm

I wish it were faster 1-10 and a bit slower 11+. Currently it takes me less time to level in the teens than in the single digits. Also generally I enjoy the PvE more in the teens than the single digits where I'm doing the exact same circuit every character for that starting location.

That or if there was a minor reward to start at level 10 I'd take it every time just to avoid the lowest level drudgery.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Nurel » Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:58 am

I changed my vote and feel the need to make a post about it

Initially I had voted for "it is fine" but then I realized... some writs now award insane amounts of EXP. I delivered a writ yesterday and received 7,000exp. I jumped from 20 to 22 in a single day by doing 6 writs.

Personally I do not mind this as I am now a somewhat experienced Arelith player with Alt-itis, and I love creating new character ideas, and growing them up and gearing them

But as a new player maining a character? I was quite OK with doing writs until lvl 20, then "grinding" my way to 30 slowly without large exp boosts from quest rewards. It added an important layer of accomplishment to my new player experience of reaching the endgame.

Nowadays, a new player could reach 30 a tad too soon, and the game is likely trivialized because of it. I think it is an important point to make, as new player retention equals healthy server growth, and this should be our bread and butter.

One might argue that a streamlined progress all the way to 30 through writs is A-OK. It eliminates silly phenomena like the "orclands XP train" we used to see so much of before the changes to writs. I totally agree with that.

My main beef with the current system is: Writs award insane EXP, and there are too many writs to pick from on the mainland.

I think the best way to go about it would be: Re-evaluate the numerical XP rewards of writs especially in the 20-30 range. Tune them down a bit. Epic levels should feel "harder" to reach. Other than that, the current system in the 1-20 range is great, in my opinion.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:34 pm

It's definitely a bit fast, but this is a problem I don't feel would really be resolved by going too far in the opposite direction, either.

Right now, it feels like character turnover is too high because some people play for multiple hours every day and just as you're getting to know the character it feels like they're gone.

Go too far in the opposite direction, however, and people will be more reluctant to start new characters and roll old ones, because being higher level means your character is more likely to succeed at whatever it is they do (and if you want them to fail you can still force it to happen as the player of said character). Higher levels equal more mechanical agency, and since WYSIWYG mechanical agency gets conflated (not entirely incorrectly) with story agency. I still remember the days when the common outcry was about stagnancy and there was a bit of disdain for characters that lasted for years. Now, the trend seems to be in the opposite direction. Finding a middle would be nice, but I do prefer this end of the scale.

This is also only a problem as a dynamic of two different playgroups with differing perspectives - people who play for multiple hours every day are investing time and energy into the game well beyond those who play once or twice a week or fortnight. It makes sense that their character earns more rewards for increased effort, but it leaves those with less time to play often feeling hopelessly frustrated as people they make connections with rapidly outlevel them.

While there are many things to do besides kill monsters together, the crux of an adventurer's relationships are formed around their fellow adventurers and the trials they undertake together. There's nothing stopping a level 30 from going hunting with his level 15 friend who was the same level as him two weeks ago, but the level 15 isn't going to catch up in two weeks doing this all the time, either, so the connection tends to fade, until you catch up.

However, this is treading dangerously close to an argument for a vault wipe, which I don't really want, since I've never gotten any of my characters to level 30 in the first place - would suck to start over when a couple of them are close-ish.
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:12 am

What if roll rewards were time-gated?

Not just time passed, but also in-game time spent playing. And the exact time would not be known to us players, though we could check it with either -date or another command, OR in the rest menu, to see if our character is eligible for the sacrifice reward. In addition, when typing in the first -delete_character, you would get a message (along with the confirmation request) whether your character is eligible for an epic sacrifice or not.

Naturally, going AFK would not count towards this. And yes, I know it can be gamed. Literally every single system can be gamed. But if people rolled their characters less, they would have more opportunities to form bonds and connections, and be more likely to make meaningful roleplay and interactions happen.
If you use -notells, I will respect your decision and continue to engage with you in meaningful roleplay.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:01 pm

I kind of like the idea of time-gating awards (or at least having played time be an additional variable in the equation) but at the end of the day, people are award grinding because there's a concept they have in mind that they really want to play that will require an award. In many ways, they don't actually want to be playing that roller; they want to be playing the character they can't yet make.

If we're trying to incentivize "meaningful bonds and connections" and "meaningful roleplay and interactions" - which I fervently agree is a thing we should be aiming towards - we also have to acknowledge that's only likely going to happen between/among characters whose players actually want to play the concepts they're playing with those characters...and frankly, "meaningful bonds" and "meaningful roleplay" is not a symmetrical judgment. An important, meaningful bond to you may be a means to an end for someone else, just as in real life.

While outside the scope of this poll topic, I tend to believe that the best way to ensure you can find meaningful bonds and connections is through a bit of OOC arrangement, specifically finding other players whose playtimes and playstyle preferences line up with yours (e.g. "Who here can only play on weekend afternoons EST and likes walking the entire way through dungeons?") and seeing if you have characters who have reason to interact. Forcing other people to slow down and spend more time playing characters they don't like isn't going to give you better roleplay.
Rolled: "Drow Twin", Amisra Durothil
Shelved: Solveigh Arnimayne, Ninim Elario
Current: Ynge Redbeard

MRFTW
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by MRFTW » Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:55 pm

I think low-level adventure XP is very hard to come by if one is doing professional writs and doesn't have a secondary source of adventure XP (like crafting). I think this is bad for low level RP and I think that those levels are the most crucial in discovering who our fledgling adventurers are.

I think low level players should either get some bonus to adventure XP gain, or a reasonable pool to begin with. Alternatively, a way to convert XP into adventure XP, like crafters have through wands/scrolls etc, but accessible to everyone, might be a way to go about it.

The rewards are good enough and the writs quick enough at high-teen onwards levels that adventure XP gain at that point seems reasonable enough to facilitate some extended RP time without penalty, but not the limitless pool it was before.

The solution I found was to occasionally do an underlevelled writ to get the full credit as adventure XP. Not sure how desirable that behaviour is, tbh.

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MissEvelyn
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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:23 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:01 pm
I kind of like the idea of time-gating awards (or at least having played time be an additional variable in the equation) but at the end of the day, people are award grinding because there's a concept they have in mind that they really want to play that will require an award. In many ways, they don't actually want to be playing that roller; they want to be playing the character they can't yet make.

If we're trying to incentivize "meaningful bonds and connections" and "meaningful roleplay and interactions" - which I fervently agree is a thing we should be aiming towards - we also have to acknowledge that's only likely going to happen between/among characters whose players actually want to play the concepts they're playing with those characters...and frankly, "meaningful bonds" and "meaningful roleplay" is not a symmetrical judgment. An important, meaningful bond to you may be a means to an end for someone else, just as in real life.
I want you to know that I wholeheartedly agree with both your paragraphs. To the latter, when I stated "meaningful" I meant it in regards to the storytelling, not necessarily a happy cozy bond between characters (though that could be meaningful in certain interactions between certain characters).

And as for your former point, it is indeed a flawed system. By design it's more desirable to grind fast to 26 and roll and then hope you get the best award. It's literally gambling, albeit safe without money involved. At level 26 you can exchange your character for a lootbox of Arelith goodies benefiting your next potential character. Bonus chances if you manage to scrape up to a million GP worth of items when you roll.

The system isn't ideal at all. But my suggestion / brainstorming isn't trying to change the system - as that would be a huge undertaking I imagine most people don't want to do - but rather make it less obviously gamey. It would still be gamey, it will always be gamey as long as it exists in this form. The entire design behind the system is gamey, even it the intent initially was not.

I am all for ridding entirely of the system and swapping it to something else. What that something else looks like, however, I couldn't tell you, because I have no idea how you replace something like this without overworking the already-overworked staff.
If you use -notells, I will respect your decision and continue to engage with you in meaningful roleplay.

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Re: What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

Post by IanPatron » Sun May 22, 2022 2:39 am

I'll be honest I miss the old Arelith.

Once upon a time being a lvl 30 meant something, and was special. Now everyone is a lvl 30 character, and minotaurs, vampires and giants are wandering everywhere.

The writ system needs to go. As it stands it's just a way to grind to lvl 30 and nothing more.

RP at low levels has become dead or rare.

On the flip side, it levels the playing field for people who grind vs RP, so I guess I finally will have a lvl 30 in Arelith.

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