What is your sentiment towards the rate of which levels and experience are gained?

[Ork]

I've made a similar case before, and I agree that you don't need to be 30 to make an impact. However, it's irrefutable that the vast majority of players are on a dead sprint to level up - be that to get the next class ability, to be able to defend/incite pvp, to roll for a more attractive race, or to explore all of Arelith's content. There's a thousand reasons to race to 30, but the majority of players are doing it.

The reason they're not asking for a faster pace is that it would never happen and players are leveling their characters at an exponentially higher rate than ever before. You can get to 30 by logging in each day, doing your 3 writs, and either logging off or bumbling around for the rest of your play time.

I'd challenge you to look at this systematically instead of emotionally. Prior to a few years ago, chancellor/settlement leaders could really be any level, faction leaders could be any level, archdruids/mages/etc. could be any level. Now, it is rare to find an underleveled individual in these roles. The L17 head of state doesn't exist. Either because XP is so easily obtained or there are systematic components that disincentize this play.

[Whosdis]

"RP at 30" is no longer just a meme but a priority for the majority of players. Players feel entitled to a faster transit to 30 so they can participate in the RP at that level.

According to the poll, the vast majority of the players think it's fine or even too fast, so anything claiming that most would like to get to 30 faster is just not the case. Heck, nearly three times more people than want it sped up would rather it have it slowed down, instead.

Lamentably you need to look towards the context, as by the time this poll came out the February nerfs to adventuring XP had just kicked in, considerably predating both the Skaljard XP nerfs and the shadow-nerfs to Surface writ XP, which people are just bumping into recently and to about now.

[Amateur Hour]

I'm sorry, there's only so much fun I can have locked out of the epic levels, when most of the content revolves around the epic levels.

I think this bears repeating.

I think of all the DM events I have ever happened to touch, all of them strictly required all participants to be performing at epic levels to be able to actually contribute at all. Yeah, you can sit there and twiddle your thumbs regardless at DM events and say you participated, but you can't actually do anything--and it makes sense, in a way, because DM events are supposed to be a challenge...but they end up being designed as a challenge for the level 30s present.

I can hear the argument "you don't need DM events to enjoy Arelith; Arelith's appeal is that it's very player-driven." All right, that makes sense, but I've yet to see a situation where there's a problem and, unless secrecy (or XP gain rate mechanics) were a huge need that limited options, they didn't go immediately for the level 30 expert(s) to help solve the problem, because OF COURSE you want the best-of-the-best experts and not the trainee apprentices. Pre-30--certainly pre-epics--your RP has to center around "gitting gud", which is very limiting.

"RP begins at 30" doesn't necessarily mean "I refuse to RP before 30". It often means "I will be blocked out of RP until I get to 30".

[Kriegos]

However, it's irrefutable that the vast majority of players are on a dead sprint to level up...

...I'd challenge you to look at this systematically instead of emotionally.

Of course leveling is a goal of people. No argument there. The point I take with it is that everyone wants to do it as fast as possible. Maybe they do, but there is such a thing as too fast, which ruins the pace of a game. We might already be there.

Last night my monk was barely level 9. Then I did some writs and he was level 11. It took about two hours. That's insanely fast. He has 30k worth of adventure XP, too, despite being a long winded old man who will ramble to anyone who passes by. He spends most of his time online not adventuring, but he's still gaining xp very quickly. The current leveling up rate of the server means that no one will be low leveled for very long.

That increased rate of leveling that has happened not just recently, but steadily over the server lifetime, means that the overall likelihood of lower level characters even existing for very long is simply lower. They have less time at those levels to do things.

If anything, the myriad problems you've pointed out about these low levels not existing in places of influence of power could just as easily be because of the overall leveling rate of Arelith and how it might be too fast now. It's definitely the case that most players have leveling up as a goal, but it's not at all irrefutable that people are dead set at leveling as fast as they can. It might just be that everyone on the server simply levels quickly because that's the reality of Arelith's systems these days.

As for the votes, I was pointing out the poll numbers, and musing about some ways the numbers might not line up with some of the claims being made. Your insistence that you know the reason for those numbers leads me to think you should look at this less emotionally. Assumptions like that never lead to better discussions or solutions, and I'm trying to have a conversation on the topic.


PS: I appreciate the additional context on the recently changed XP rates and the poll, Whodis! I only saw your reply when I went to preview this one, but I think everything above still has something to contribute to the discussion, so here goes the post!

[Kalthariam]

Leveling is fine the way it is.

Feels like the server massively incentivizes you to be max level anyways.

Reducing the EXP rate isn't likely going to incentivize people to RP more, it will make people go back to old circle farming methods like spirits, with zero RP to grind to level 30 (Or 26 if it's a roll character).

If people are intent on pushing themselves to 30, they will push themselves to 30 no matter what you do.

I personally didn't enjoy slower leveling, feeling like your forced to circle grind spirits for hours to level up was not enjoyable.

[Tareldar]

Yeah, unironically I think leveling has never been better. Leveling still takes a relatively good while for casual players (almost a month) and as people have mentioned, leveling rate doesn't change the fact that most of the time I (and others) feel alienated from the RP until we reach max level. At least now a good amount of us reaches level cap in a timely manner, rather than like half of us getting burnt halfway through just purely grinding mobs.

[SaintPhilosopher]

Leveling is perfect right now. Leveling atm is not too fast and not too slow. You still want some sort of 'journey' to max level. For the sake of getting that ideal 'earned' reward feeling, having a mandatory reason to meet other characters and make connections (help with writs), -not there yet- RP, and having a lowbie economy. But, you don't want it to take an entire year, there is a diminishing return. As long as all of those beneficial points of leveling are hit, the leveling rate does not have to change. Arelith provides all of those points during the current leveling experience in satisfying dosages, it is fine.

[Good Character]

I have an additional perspective. As a faction leader and one who runs events, the writs and pace of leveling have definitely opened players up to sticking around to roleplay and more comfortable in-general.

Also, definitely the addition of these obscenely hard dungeons is great. They aren't locked behind solely levels but true teamplay. Even then the teamplay may not be alone; it sets up fantastic moments you'll actually talk about and can boast about.

[Xantor_Stromgate]

Of course leveling is a goal. It might just be that everyone on the server simply levels quickly because that's the reality of Arelith's systems these days.

Quite so. I remember about, oh, ... 15 years ago when there was not ADV. XP, no Mark of Destiny, no Writs, and an Isle that had not been "fully explored". I remember the player sg42 sending me a Tell saying, "I think we leveled to fast". I then sent her one back stating my confusion.

I love character building, but I know I don't have to be level 30 to enjoy playing on Arelith. I've been playing Urgo on the side since the Gift of Wealth was instated. He's just now level 11. Now, he has no aspirations for leadership, which in a sense would require are more "experienced" character. But, if I remember correctly, Gar wasn't XP Maxed when he was coronated Thane of the Golden Halls of Brogendenstein. But, do know he was in his Epic Levels.

Personally, I think the XP gain just fine as you can adjust it somewhat from the player side. I.E.: You don't have to do the Writs, and you can patrol the Cordorian Iron Mines until you get under 5 XP per slaying. So, you have a good influence on how fast your character gains XP.

[Khorvale]

Perhaps the potential issue, assuming there is one, is not so much the rate of XP, but the fact that there's no limit to the number of levels you can gain in a given amount of time.
Imagine if there was a limit of, say, only being able to gain 1 level every real life week, and any XP beyond that instead got put in the RP pool (at a reduced rate maybe, I'm not one to suggest mechanical specifics). Seems to be that would be a lot less incentive to have to 'grind out those 3 writs a day' and more incentive to do some deeper RP. Maybe.

[Kuma]

Perhaps the potential issue, assuming there is one, is not so much the rate of XP, but the fact that there's no limit to the number of levels you can gain in a given amount of time.
Imagine if there was a limit of, say, only being able to gain 1 level every real life week, and any XP beyond that instead got put in the RP pool (at a reduced rate maybe, I'm not one to suggest mechanical specifics). Seems to be that would be a lot less incentive to have to 'grind out those 3 writs a day' and more incentive to do some deeper RP. Maybe.

folks; we've reinvented ravenloft

[God_In_Action]

Honestly I think the quick levelling has made the server worse, not better. Not ruined. Just not as good.

The higher rate of levelling is my least liked thing about how Arelith has changed over the years. I enjoy all aspects of playing Arelith, the RP, the adventuring and exploring in a persistent world, and also the mechanical building. I find that by the time my characters are reaching level 30 or very high epics, the sense of enjoyment that I get from the progression of levelling up the character evaporates incredibly- the enjoyment of the progression and mechanical building up to level 30 is over VERY quickly. My enthusiasm for the character tends to then disappear. I see other players with characters who are around for months or years, and I wish that I could be so attached.

I also think that something else has been lost in RP due to the high rate of levelling. In the past, I found that IC relationships and long lasting plots built up organically during the time that you played a character. Because it would take longer to level up, it meant that you met a lot more other characters and built up relationships. Now, I find that by the time I'm hitting high epics I've barely introduced myself to other characters or into a faction. And then splat - the enthusiasm for the character is gone because it's reach 30 and there's no where left to go.

The sweet spot is in simultaneous RP, adventure/exploration and mechanical progression.

I'm aware that there will be other players who don't relate to their characters in this way, and for whom getting to level 30 is no barrier at all to their enthusiasm. For those people who say "just don't level up", I say to you that it takes more conscious effort now to not level up than it used to take circle grinding. Circle grinders always gonna grind, no need to try and stop them. But we solved the circle grinding by just levelling up everyone so fast that circle grinding barely matters any more.

EDIT: Another has been lost: having players of different mechanical power due to levels wasn't a bad thing, since it makes no difference to the quality of the RP. It used to be that being low level or being high level meant something. A level 30 character would have been around a long time, done many things, met many people, and be more likely to have a reputation. Now, BOOM, everyone is level 30 within a week if they want to be. Being a new guy on the block means nothing, because you'll be as equally powerful as those that have invested in their characters within a blink of an eye. You can create a new character, barely form a single relationship, and in a flash you're (mechanically) a force to be reckoned with before anyone even knows who you are.

Another example: My current character is a wizard. I reached out to my local friendly faction, wanting some of that sweet, sweet apprenticeship RP, but find myself as powerful as any Arch-Wizard before those relationships have even formed.

An analogy (courtesy of my partner who happened to read this as I was typing) : the fun in SIMS isn't in having the house, it's in building the house. The fun in Animal Crossing isn't in having a finished island, it's in paying off the mortgage.

[Khorvale]

Honestly I think the quick levelling has made the server worse, not better. Not ruined. Just not as good.

The higher rate of levelling is my least liked thing about how Arelith has changed over the years. I enjoy all aspects of playing Arelith, the RP, the adventuring and exploring in a persistent world, and also the mechanical building. I find that by the time my characters are reaching level 30 or very high epics, the sense of enjoyment that I get from the progression of levelling up the character evaporates incredibly- the enjoyment of the progression and mechanical building up to level 30 is over VERY quickly. My enthusiasm for the character tends to then disappear. I see other players with characters who are around for months or years, and I wish that I could be so attached.

I also think that something else has been lost in RP due to the high rate of levelling. In the past, I found that IC relationships and long lasting plots built up organically during the time that you played a character. Because it would take longer to level up, it meant that you met a lot more other characters and built up relationships. Now, I find that by the time I'm hitting high epics I've barely introduced myself to other characters or into a faction. And then splat - the enthusiasm for the character is gone because it's reach 30 and there's no where left to go.

The sweet spot is in simultaneous RP, adventure/exploration and mechanical progression.

I'm aware that there will be other players who don't relate to their characters in this way, and for whom getting to level 30 is no barrier at all to their enthusiasm. For those people who say "just don't level up", I say to you that it takes more conscious effort now to not level up than it used to take circle grinding. Circle grinders always gonna grind, no need to try and stop them. But we solved the circle grinding by just levelling up everyone so fast that circle grinding barely matters any more.

EDIT: Another has been lost: having players of different mechanical power due to levels wasn't a bad thing, since it makes no difference to the quality of the RP. It used to be that being low level or being high level meant something. A level 30 character would have been around a long time, done many things, met many people, and be more likely to have a reputation. Now, BOOM, everyone is level 30 within a week if they want to be. Being a new guy on the block means nothing, because you'll be as equally powerful as those that have invested in their characters within a blink of an eye. You can create a new character, barely form a single relationship, and in a flash you're (mechanically) a force to be reckoned with before anyone even knows who you are.

Another example: My current character is a wizard. I reached out to my local friendly faction, wanting some of that sweet, sweet apprenticeship RP, but find myself as powerful as any Arch-Wizard before those relationships have even formed.

An analogy (courtesy of my partner who happened to read this as I was typing) : the fun in SIMS isn't in having the house, it's in building the house. The fun in Animal Crossing isn't in having a finished island, it's in paying off the mortgage.

This is such a good point, personally I lose any semblance of verisimilitude ("immersion") when my mechanical progression is so fast that it becomes either impossible or flat out ridiculous to try and apply any sort of in-world context to it ('Why yes, last week I was a fresh-faced, idealistic youth and this week I am basically a demi-god which I became doing contract work for the municipality, just like everyone else here, why do you ask?'). It's a classic PW problem, some people want to grind levels and some people want to RP. And a lot of people, myself included, can't resist the siren call of the level up when it's so readily available, others have axes to grind and want to reach max level ASAP so they can't ever lose at PvP, and million other good or less good explanations and justifications.

I have no illusion that this is going to change but honestly I think, in an Arelith-context, it's a terrible shame that this method seem preferred by the powers that be because it doesn't actually mesh very well with the intended roleplaying-orientation of the server, as I see it.
If the general consensus is (and it seems to be) that you're barely even a real player if you've been here less than a year, why would it be so dangerous to have a system where it'd take months to even reach level 30? My guess is, Arelith as an institution has a numbers-addiction of its own, and it's those sweet, sweet player counter numbers

[The GrumpyCat]

Honestly I think the quick levelling has made the server worse, not better. Not ruined. Just not as good.

The higher rate of levelling is my least liked thing about how Arelith has changed over the years. I enjoy all aspects of playing Arelith, the RP, the adventuring and exploring in a persistent world, and also the mechanical building. I find that by the time my characters are reaching level 30 or very high epics, the sense of enjoyment that I get from the progression of levelling up the character evaporates incredibly- the enjoyment of the progression and mechanical building up to level 30 is over VERY quickly. My enthusiasm for the character tends to then disappear. I see other players with characters who are around for months or years, and I wish that I could be so attached.

I also think that something else has been lost in RP due to the high rate of levelling. In the past, I found that IC relationships and long lasting plots built up organically during the time that you played a character. Because it would take longer to level up, it meant that you met a lot more other characters and built up relationships. Now, I find that by the time I'm hitting high epics I've barely introduced myself to other characters or into a faction. And then splat - the enthusiasm for the character is gone because it's reach 30 and there's no where left to go.

The sweet spot is in simultaneous RP, adventure/exploration and mechanical progression.

I'm aware that there will be other players who don't relate to their characters in this way, and for whom getting to level 30 is no barrier at all to their enthusiasm. For those people who say "just don't level up", I say to you that it takes more conscious effort now to not level up than it used to take circle grinding. Circle grinders always gonna grind, no need to try and stop them. But we solved the circle grinding by just levelling up everyone so fast that circle grinding barely matters any more.

EDIT: Another has been lost: having players of different mechanical power due to levels wasn't a bad thing, since it makes no difference to the quality of the RP. It used to be that being low level or being high level meant something. A level 30 character would have been around a long time, done many things, met many people, and be more likely to have a reputation. Now, BOOM, everyone is level 30 within a week if they want to be. Being a new guy on the block means nothing, because you'll be as equally powerful as those that have invested in their characters within a blink of an eye. You can create a new character, barely form a single relationship, and in a flash you're (mechanically) a force to be reckoned with before anyone even knows who you are.

Another example: My current character is a wizard. I reached out to my local friendly faction, wanting some of that sweet, sweet apprenticeship RP, but find myself as powerful as any Arch-Wizard before those relationships have even formed.

An analogy (courtesy of my partner who happened to read this as I was typing) : the fun in SIMS isn't in having the house, it's in building the house. The fun in Animal Crossing isn't in having a finished island, it's in paying off the mortgage.

Just want to say - This is exactly the problem I've been having playerside. GodInAction puts it perfectly.

[Hazard]

Honestly I think the quick levelling has made the server worse, not better. Not ruined. Just not as good.

The higher rate of levelling is my least liked thing about how Arelith has changed over the years. I enjoy all aspects of playing Arelith, the RP, the adventuring and exploring in a persistent world, and also the mechanical building. I find that by the time my characters are reaching level 30 or very high epics, the sense of enjoyment that I get from the progression of levelling up the character evaporates incredibly- the enjoyment of the progression and mechanical building up to level 30 is over VERY quickly. My enthusiasm for the character tends to then disappear. I see other players with characters who are around for months or years, and I wish that I could be so attached.

I also think that something else has been lost in RP due to the high rate of levelling. In the past, I found that IC relationships and long lasting plots built up organically during the time that you played a character. Because it would take longer to level up, it meant that you met a lot more other characters and built up relationships. Now, I find that by the time I'm hitting high epics I've barely introduced myself to other characters or into a faction. And then splat - the enthusiasm for the character is gone because it's reach 30 and there's no where left to go.

The sweet spot is in simultaneous RP, adventure/exploration and mechanical progression.

I'm aware that there will be other players who don't relate to their characters in this way, and for whom getting to level 30 is no barrier at all to their enthusiasm. For those people who say "just don't level up", I say to you that it takes more conscious effort now to not level up than it used to take circle grinding. Circle grinders always gonna grind, no need to try and stop them. But we solved the circle grinding by just levelling up everyone so fast that circle grinding barely matters any more.

EDIT: Another has been lost: having players of different mechanical power due to levels wasn't a bad thing, since it makes no difference to the quality of the RP. It used to be that being low level or being high level meant something. A level 30 character would have been around a long time, done many things, met many people, and be more likely to have a reputation. Now, BOOM, everyone is level 30 within a week if they want to be. Being a new guy on the block means nothing, because you'll be as equally powerful as those that have invested in their characters within a blink of an eye. You can create a new character, barely form a single relationship, and in a flash you're (mechanically) a force to be reckoned with before anyone even knows who you are.

Another example: My current character is a wizard. I reached out to my local friendly faction, wanting some of that sweet, sweet apprenticeship RP, but find myself as powerful as any Arch-Wizard before those relationships have even formed.

An analogy (courtesy of my partner who happened to read this as I was typing) : the fun in SIMS isn't in having the house, it's in building the house. The fun in Animal Crossing isn't in having a finished island, it's in paying off the mortgage.

Just want to say - This is exactly the problem I've been having playerside. GodInAction puts it perfectly.

I feel exactly the same way. Something I've been bothered by for a long time now.

[Xerah]

To keep the train going, this is exactly how I feel too and why I have a vault full of high level characters whose story either never got finished. I don’t really want to delete them because they’re unfinished.

The award timer is actually super helpful at getting past this too because it helps me focus on a character because I can’t roll one anyway, so maybe I can finish this character over the next two months.

[Good Character]

We have to give the circumstances for when this thread was made and when all these alternatives for leveling (e.g. writs, adventure XP) were introduced; changes to classes were and are often. It had and continues to leave a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths when builds are crushed and even potentially left unrecoverable. This led to people wanting an easier time to level up a new character.

However, now we both have free access to -relevel again and the ability to totally change starting stats and 1st-level feats.

When the thread was first made I agreed the leveling pace was fine given the context aforementioned. Now I also agree it's too fast.

[God_In_Action]

So what is the way forwards here then?

Is there a compromise to be made? (For which I could imagine some suggestions).

Or is this a case of conflicting and incompatible player preferences, with different visions for the server, which cannot be reconciled to make more players happy?

If there is a middle ground, could it look something like:

1. You pick either between normal XP on killing enemies, but don't get any writ XP (or massive reductions)
2. OR you get writ XP but not any killing XP (or just massive reductions).
3. OR you can continue getting both normal XP AND writ XP, but Mark of Destiny is mandatory if you keep both.

Under those rules, those that want to level fast can (and 10 lives is a lot for reaching 30). Or maybe this is just unnecessarily curtailing players.

Or maybe the solution is to very slowly change XP from killing and writs, by small percentages at a time, until a happy medium is found.

The risk to changing anything is that too many players leave the server if they don't like the changes. But the alternative risk is that quality of RP suffers for all the reasons I listed and some agree with.

[MissEvelyn]

So what is the way forwards here then?

Is there a compromise to be made? (For which I could imagine some suggestions).

Or is this a case of conflicting and incompatible player preferences, with different visions for the server, which cannot be reconciled to make more players happy?

If there is a middle ground, could it look something like:

1. You pick either between normal XP on killing enemies, but don't get any writ XP (or massive reductions)
2. OR you get writ XP but not any killing XP (or just massive reductions).
3. OR you can continue getting both normal XP AND writ XP, but Mark of Destiny is mandatory if you keep both.

Under those rules, those that want to level fast can (and 10 lives is a lot for reaching 30). Or maybe this is just unnecessarily curtailing players.

Or maybe the solution is to very slowly change XP from killing and writs, by small percentages at a time, until a happy medium is found.

The risk to changing anything is that too many players leave the server if they don't like the changes. But the alternative risk is that quality of RP suffers for all the reasons I listed and some agree with.

I like this suggestion, even if it is just a first iteration.

And as to groups of players leaving, that hasn't always been a bad thing in Arelith's history. Some would say that the quality of RP was improved after they left.

[Xerah]

I don't think there is any walking this back now.

I'm not going to intentionally choose a bad method of EXP gain either. I like character progression just as much as everyone else. It's more of a whole server change that is not going to be popular.

[Good Character]

The future of the server needs to be seriously considered. If the quality of RP is truly tanking, then it might require a dire shift. In my own experience, a server that followed Arelith's current path (e.g. non-whitelisted RP server that became more casual and laxed with its RP in favor of game mechanics) became obsolete in a few years.

However, I personally don't think Arelith is there yet. Arelith has great roleplayers and factions. Though, I do have more fond memories from years and years ago before even adventure XP was introduced.

I say we look to a sister-server: Ravenloft. They have an incredibly slow progression speed but arguably better roleplay scene, yet is also not whitelisted. Does correlation imply causation? Possibly not, but it has continued to become popular despite it's arguably worse classes and class mechanic decisions (e.g. fervent dedication to PnP mechanics on a real-time RPG platform).

[Amateur Hour]

It's worth keeping in mind that there are also downsides to slow leveling, in that people tend to get more invested in their characters for bad ways as well as good. Each character represents more of a time investment, so they're less likely to take a loss as such, or more likely to take such losses personally on a player level.

Is that bad roleplay? Yes. But if we're talking about bad roleplay behaviors endemic to faster leveling as reasons to change something, we need to also talk about the bad roleplay behaviors of slower leveling.

[DwarfPrideWorldWide]

Going to be honest, I don't understand the complaints regarding leveling, if I'm not mistaken Adventure XP writs were made specifically to combat the issue of players complaining that leveling is too fast, if you want to sit around and RP and gain levels more slowly take the adventure XP writ.

[Mattamue]

Also confused about quick leveling complaints. After retiring a level 30 its been very hard to get back into the game because even at the current rate it takes forever to level.

I would be all for something like free XP to level 28 (so you can get the tumble dip) and then the last 2 levels are a little bigger. That makes all writs always relevant for everyone always. No content that doesn't get used. No Skal with different level ranges lording over lowbies. Easier to balance NPCs on the server since you know people will be within a certain HP range always; no more bugbears 1-shotting complete newbs. DM events are easier since you know everyone is about the same level. You'll always be able to level with everyone so there aren't sections of the server cut off from eachother because they're level 12 vs level 23.

[Xerah]

God in Action explained it perfectly if there is confusion. You can disagree with his opinion, but it is one held by a bunch of us.