ReverentBlade wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:58 am
Literally just run in circles and you negate it entirely.
That's categorically false. Unlike true strike, where it takes a round to cast or 1/2 to pop a potion, stealth can be triggered immediately. True strike loses its advantage after a while but for a character that has no detection skills, HiPS allows stealthers a way to activate stealth without disengaging. Even characters that invest in detection skills will be caught flat-footed by a high hide SD (which most are).
A harsh truth that probably needs to be said: if you do not care about mechanics, or have no interest in learning about mechanics, your opinion on mechanics should be taken with a grain of salt. A metaphor might be astronomists arguing with flat earthers. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself. There's plenty of very knowledgeable people on this server with some very thoroughly tested mechanics skill.
Ork wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:34 am
HiPS is borked and really should have a longer cooldown. 4 rounds is perfect. In the hands of a capable player, HiPS is scary.
Just because it is scary in hands of a capable player, it doesn't mean that anything needs to be done about it.
Ork wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:34 am
HiPS is borked and really should have a longer cooldown. 4 rounds is perfect. In the hands of a capable player, HiPS is scary.
Just because it is scary in hands of a capable player, it doesn't mean that anything needs to be done about it.
A capable player is capable for a reason.
That's not true. PMs were scary in capable hands, and the team reasonably nerfed them. Monks were frighteningly overpowered in the right hands, and the team nerfed them. A capable player can turn a L30 fighter into a force, but when you have class imbalances - that scale is tipped drastically.
Ork wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:08 am
That's not true. PMs were scary in capable hands, and the team reasonably nerfed them. Monks were frighteningly overpowered in the right hands, and the team nerfed them.
Which was not necessarily the right thing to do.
Ork wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:08 am
A capable player can turn a L30 fighter into a force, but when you have class imbalances - that scale is tipped drastically.
D&D is not balanced, and trying to balance it out is rather pointless.
It is not a modern MMO thing, and it is not designed with ideas that "every class shoudl have a shot against every other class". The idea was, to begin with, to play in groups. So power of your comrades compensates for your weaknesses.
You're supposed to know what you can and can't do and when to call for help of others.
It shouldn't be the world where "it is scare, please remove!" is the logic.
For example, level 30 against level 3 is scary, does it mean anything needs to be done about it?
I'd vote for longer cooldown if they give shadow dancers faster stealth. Really bothers me i could be 17 shadow dancer, just for espionage RP and still moving 30% slower at stealth than a cookie cutter rogue.
The push for shadow dancers to corner sneak more would be easier if their stealth speed was a wee bit faster. So allowing rogue levels to stack with SD for stealth speed + 4 or 5 round cooldown I think would balance things out while reducing a spam supereasy disengage mechanic.
Though i don't know why we keep throwing each under the "mechanically not savvy" bus. It was some of the most mechanically savvy people that use to say SD was never worth it becu9ase cookie rogue has so many other tools to re-stealth.
That being said, druid HiPS really needing fixing.
The "investing sixty-six skill points is a big sacrifice" argument is an ancient one, and it's deeply flawed. To start with, basically every class I can think off of the top of my head with hide and move silently as class skills in the game gets 4 or more skill points per level, which is two more to spare than most of the non-stealth based classes have to spot them with- and a great many of these have to take them as cross-class skills.
It's also not a "sacrifice" to invest inhide or move silently, as 99% of stealth-based builds are geared specifically around this ability and the benefits it bestows (sneak attack, controlling engagements) and it has synergy with your primary stat (dex) which will 100% of the time come along with the weapon finesse feat to also make you better at killing things (which also isn't what I'd deem a sacrifice, but rather a staple.)
To compare the investment of skill-points into hide/MS in a stealth class to the same level of sacrifice of a warrior, cleric, or druid investing in spot, listen, or even discipline as if they are all equally some kind of sacrifice that takes away from your primary class kit rather than an augmentation to it is outright false and no basis for anything.
With that said, I don't think HiPS needs a longer cooldown. I don't think it needed a cooldown at all, and I don't think True Seeing needed to be nerfed all the way down to one round, either. But that's not the world we live in, and I don't really care to see a mechanic that I don't feel needed changed in the first place changed further.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002
Another thing to consider is how far you can run away in 24 seconds (4 rounds).
In some areas that will be probably enough to cover a good chunk of the map.
That's the distance hipsing class will need to cover to while running away from monsters in PvE. 2 rounds is already annoying enough.
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Zaphiel wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:21 am
Go get some spot skills maybe, eh?
Or a druid/cleric buddy.
Actually you could go further and start some "Order of Watchful Eye", and make a guild dedicated solely to spotting heinous sneaks and wrecking their plans. That would be more fun.
Git gud is correct for all the wrong reasons. You'd think OP was asking for HiPS removal with all these comments. This is the new whatever-mechanics of Arelith, I guess. Carry on.
You'll have to ask yourself in a few months why all the rogues are taking the SD tax (if they haven't done so already).
NegInfinity wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:14 am
D&D is not balanced, and trying to balance it out is rather pointless.
It is not a modern MMO thing, and it is not designed with ideas that "every class shoudl have a shot against every other class". The idea was, to begin with, to play in groups. So power of your comrades compensates for your weaknesses.
You're supposed to know what you can and can't do and when to call for help of others.
It shouldn't be the world where "it is scare, please remove!" is the logic.
For example, level 30 against level 3 is scary, does it mean anything needs to be done about it?
You have noticed, I hope, that we're not playing D&D. Nor are we six people sitting around a table with a DM we all know and respect. We're literally 200+ people on an average daily basis with large stretches of no DM supervision.
cowboy wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:36 am
WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK MOVEMENT = NOT FLAT FOOTED?
I laughed. Good one.
Hips is a paper-tiger and if anything should only have a six second cooldown at most. You built poorly and bought spot to foil disguise/pickpocket/real bad stealthers trying to get a magic bullet when mediocre listen catches almost all sneakers, rendering hips useless except for PvE and against people who don't know any better.
Build better rather than complain. This server hand-holds players far too much against stealthers as is.
HIPS is one of the absolutely most bonkers broken mechanics ever introduced to the game.
It used to be disabled on Arelith for a very long time ...and for for a good reason. IMHO re-enabling it was a bad call.
That being said, anything that tones it down a bit is probably a good idea. Cooldown is a reasonable option here, but for that the cooldown needs to be of a relevant value. Personally, I'm leaning more towards something akin to the cooldowns of GS and Timestop (as in essence what these abilities actually do is not so distant from HIPS).
The flat-footed argument can be easily dismissed as you can: abuse HIPS with ranged weapons the flurry of attacks you use HIPS to alpha strike with each time vastly outdamages any potential attacks of opportunity that you might suffer during all that "disengage+HIPS+reengage" routine.
NegInfinity wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:14 am
D&D is not balanced, and trying to balance it out is rather pointless.
It is not a modern MMO thing, and it is not designed with ideas that "every class shoudl have a shot against every other class". The idea was, to begin with, to play in groups. So power of your comrades compensates for your weaknesses.
You're supposed to know what you can and can't do and when to call for help of others.
It shouldn't be the world where "it is scare, please remove!" is the logic.
For example, level 30 against level 3 is scary, does it mean anything needs to be done about it?
You have noticed, I hope, that we're not playing D&D. Nor are we six people sitting around a table with a DM we all know and respect. We're literally 200+ people on an average daily basis with large stretches of no DM supervision.
It is 90% D&D - lore mechanics and all.
And I'd prefer if the server wasn't destroyed in the name of "greater good", "balance" or other things.
There's already weirdness creeping in, would be better not to add any more of it.
When something is "scary" you're supposed to overcome your fear and come up with a strategy. I.e. build better, play better, or rely on power of companionship.
Asking for nerfs smells a lot like all that "medal for participation". Especially when there's life outside of PVP encounters.
NegInfinity wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:17 amIt is 90% D&D - lore mechanics and all.
And I'd prefer if the server wasn't destroyed in the name of "greater good", "balance" or other things.
There's already weirdness creeping in, would be better not to add any more of it.
When something is "scary" you're supposed to overcome your fear and come up with a strategy. I.e. build better, play better, or rely on power of companionship.
Asking for nerfs smells a lot like all that "medal for participation". Especially when there's life outside of PVP encounters.
How are people throwing each other under the mechanics bus and at the same time not being clear about what HIPS is in different situations. You can add HIPS to any build if you do it right.... it is really no different than getting a 7/5 WM dip for critical damage. Some things to consider.
Ranger HiPS: Kicks in at level 16 and only works in wooded areas. Rangers have no natural sneak damage, so what are they getting? They get the first shot, possibly an early KD? Catch you flat footed so easier to hit on those first few wacks? Maybe don't take on a ranger in the woods! Drag him into the city and give him the shiv in an alley where he is out of his element.
SD heavy builds: Okay, so if you are building 13 or 16 SD and 13 or 10 rogue, you are not hitting those damage numbers. SD damage dice are much lower. You are trading reduced sneak attack for a PVE tank and shadowevade on a really short cool down. Can you win a fight, yeah, if you are careful. However, any self-respecting melee build will wack the heck out of you. On top of that, SD saves are just trash! The double attempt on the will save is completely worthless and fortitude is no better. Hit my high SD build with a spell and I am toast
Rogue heavy builds (5 SD dip): For the record, if you do the math a 19-5-6 Rogue/SD/Other build will net you all of the same feats as the heavy SD investment +1. You lose the shadow, shadow evade, and the low DC shadow fear. Moreover, you will gain staggering damage to sneak attacks, but you are gonna get it for one round. After that, either you won or your are gonna get blasted most likely. Not to mention, you are on a 3/4 BAB progression. There are the grenades though.
Shadowmage: Yeah, thats rough, reveal, fire off powerful spells, hips, reveal again. Tough one.
Any other 5 SD dip: You can make it work with anything that you can dip either Ranger/Rogue/Bard/Monk to get the easy 10 hide. You can then use it to attack from sneak.....You can even take a heavy skill point investment and dip for say a hipsing Trueflame.
So what are we really mad about here. It seems that, whenever people are mad it is because someone beat them up in PVP, probably by getting whittled away with a come and go attack. However, the only above build that seems to be targeted is the rogue heavy SD build. They are the only build that stands to gain from hips'ing and attacking again. Any other build can hips and heal kit, but then so can the target too.
The problem is, lots of other builds can hit high damage. Divine builds, and not to mention weapon-masters (but those aren't over powered, or so I am told). And rogues are doing it at 3/4 BAB (though arguable rogue bonuses negate some of that out of hidden). However, you are trying to torch a whole feature because of a single build. Maybe, lets get rid of all crits next because weapon masters do too much damage?
25 investment in lore still gets you access to true sight scrolls (plus a ton of other scrolls!). Odds are rogue's discipline isn't high enough to block a knockdown. Or, hit them with any spell with a will or fort save and you have a big advantage. And if you are gonna bring out the nerf guns, lets try to be specific about the problem we are firing at.
Shifter hips has a cooldown which is quite a nerf to an already mechanically irrelevant class. At least it is reported to have a cooldown in the console, haven’t tried to spam it.
I think HiPS needs a longer cooldown. It is still very easy to abuse.
Edit: I have played many Shadowdancers and thoroughly enjoyed being invincible due to being able to drop all action queues and take advantage of the very short timer.
These thoughts are more of a personal flavor than actual feeling that it's powerful but I feel it should be the identity of a shadow dancer or manipulator of shadows. It is becoming a staple in many dex builds now from dips with rogue and monks to even some Arcane Archer builds. I think it should be a rare trait and more inclusive to shadow dancer heavy builds. I would be for pushing the requirement for hips to level 9 SD.
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:24 am
I'd vote for longer cooldown if they give shadow dancers faster stealth. Really bothers me i could be 17 shadow dancer, just for espionage RP and still moving 30% slower at stealth than a cookie cutter rogue.
This is already implimented. Rogue levels stack with Shadowdancer levels for determining speed in stealth.
It's all on the Wiki.
Temporarily back to Arelith and currently 'Hanna'.
abuse HIPS with ranged weapons
