Prestige wrote:Some of those builds don't really work in any capacity: in my opinion, neither Fighter nor Ranger can effectively utilize PDK's abilities at later levels due to a lack of built-in tankiness, and the class relegates you into a tank role.
Fighter/PDK has plenty of built-in tankiness. Nothing's stopping you from splitting 22 STR/CON and going EDR while still maintaining 44-46 AB. Add the usual full plate / IE and you've got a tank.
Even then, I'm pretty sure Cortex listed those two options as offensive brawlers combining STR melee with potent debuffs. Which is to say, not a tank role at all.
Also, a wizard without UMD is not a meme. You've just described wizard/ranger, one of the more viable and common wizard setups out there.
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@Cortex - I'm not (necessarily) disagreeing with your conclusion, but I do want to point out that you've done something that's happened a lot in these discussions - by talking about "permanent haste or mass use of fear" you're conflating a Valiant ability with a Vanguard one. That means that I'm not convinced by your analysis.
All 3 paths get a strong PvE ability - Vanguards with their fear, Protectors with Final Stand and Valiants with hasting an ally - and that's obviously by design. Taking a whole class should absolutely give you something worthwhile, as the opportunity cost is that you can't take another class that would offer you something else worthwhile. That's why I find the most convincing arguments here don't try to talk about all the abilities together, but pick individual builds - like Barbarian 17 / Rogue 3 / Knight Protector 10, with massive HP and lots of Final Stand uses for 75% healing - and ask whether they are significantly stronger than other options out there.
So can you pick some of the builds you listed (or all of them if you like) and explain where you think they cross the envelope of what should be possible, compared to other similar options that are out there? I'd be particularly interested if you feel that the class could be used to improve upon, say, the ftr/rog/wpnmaster build that seems to be considered as the standard top tier.
Same comment to yellowcateyes. I get the comparison between protector and heal path cleric. But heal path cleric is nobody's idea of a top tier build (as far as I can see) and hence it's not clear that that should be the standard against which new stuff is measured.
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Mithreas wrote:Same comment to yellowcateyes. I get the comparison between protector and heal path cleric. But heal path cleric is nobody's idea of a top tier build (as far as I can see) and hence it's not clear that that should be the standard against which new stuff is measured.
I don't think that's the right way to look at it.
When people say 'top tier,' they're talking mostly about classes that win in PvP in high level matches.
Naturally, no one is going to pick a Healer path cleric for the sake of winning 1v1 pvp duels. It's a support class and should be regarded as such.
What should be a fairly obvious problem is that a you've made a PrC that surpasses a support healer at support healing while still maintaining strong combat potential by virtue of being a high BAB class with d10 hit dice. And since the Final Stand ability requires no feat or stat investment, you can still build for combat ability without any drop in its potency.
This is, incidentally, what we mean by investment and sacrifice. To get a potent ability, most classes require some attribute, feat or skill investment - frequently all three.
Compare, again, to Paladin Lay on Hands, which is the classic example of a high bab class with self-heal capabilities. Lay on Hands is single use, single target, and bound to both the CHA stat and class level. If you're a STR paladin, you'll get much less mileage out of it.
Final Stand has up to 11 uses, benefits the entire group, and keys off of max HP without regard to stat investment.
If you're creating new paths that are flat out better than older paths and core classes, you're not creating new content. You're just replacing old content.
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Vanguard gets super easy PvE due to Fear spamming, Valiant shares part of the problem Weave Masters had with infinite spells, but instead infinite haste on a single target. A big problem with Valiant is that it's not really useful past a certain level due to haste availability, but is super strong early on.
Barbarian with PDK gives them literal thousands worth of temporary HP, it sacrifices a bit of biteback and rage on hit damage for insane amounts of healing, as well weapon spec. But it is still a direct upgrade to the normal barbarian build except in very few scenarios, a 200-400 HP heal (depending on the level and HP) that can be used 11 times, on top of rage, makes them incredibly absurd in PvP, and lose about nothing in PvE.
Bard 20/PDK 10 is not a problem with bard, but that PDK syncs far too well with it, it capitalizes on every strength the bard has (buffs and debuffs), a direct upgrade from Bard/Ftr or Pal and variants, there is no downside other than missing out on scimitar.
Paladin/PDK is also strong and I wouldn't say it's a direct upgrade from Brycer yet due to feat starvation, but it can either a) Valiant for PvE cheese and giving everyone paladin-tier saves, b) Vanguard for using and abusing their high CHA on fear, or c) Protector for powerful sustainability in PvE and PvP.
Wizard/PDK can use Oath of Wrath(which is a free action, it does NOT leave them vulnerable, it does not take up an action) to give -14(bit less if not 30, but still at least -10) AC, meaning their party members and their summon(probably an EDK) will absolutely tear them apart. Not to mention it is likely to invalidate a number of bosses.
Fighter/PDK is simple but straightforward, it's not overpowered but you can't say it's weak. It doesn't have the DPS of a WM but depending on how you build it, it can be an offensive debuffer with fear, or an EDR support tank with Final Stand.
Bard/PM/PDK has even less DPS than the normal version, but makes up for party aid, it's essentially an immortal support, forcing people to remove fear or have clarity/mind blank full time due to Fear, and still able to AC debuff further with Taunt.
Ranger/PDK, it's bad but it's still an upgrade from vanilla ranger, it misses out on some constant damage, but instead can get more AB with Oath of Wrath vs FE, and stronger debuffs.
Many of the above issues could be solved by keeping most of the abilities on a cooldown but infinite use, and tweaking their powers and functions a bit. Their spam power makes them immensely strong in PvP, and their main power is still numerous enough for PvE to be a breeze.
edit: Lo and behold, the ultimate unholy abomination... the Rog/PDK/WM.
Gets some essential feats late... but it's still a WM rockin' 48 AB, base 40 AC (potential of high 50s), 27.5 damage(+2 from oath of wrath, more with extra buffing), 554 potential HP, and Vanguard fear debuffing. Not as much raw damage as a vanilla WM, but they can safely debuff someone with Oath for about -5 AC if they buff themselves with a Fox's Cunning, and even more with Fear.
edit 2: actually the above cant get plate armor or shields so nevermind most of that.
cortex's last-second recollection that pdk and wm don't get any proficiencies being the final stumbling block for a lot of pdk theorycrafting made me giggle
though i do find it really odd that a thematically knightly class doesn't get armours
Don't worry, I tried to buff that, but the feat 2das don't work without haks so I ended up improving other abilities instead
I'm not planning to make any further changes to PDK personally, though I believe Scholar and Peppermint are (and to be clear, I'm totally OK with that! They're far better placed to make balance adjustments than I am). As such, I'm going to leave detailed responses to YCA and Cortex to those who have a better grasp of epic builds than I do (but thank you for making your cases explicitly, even if I still don't rate the healer path, in either my original or its new incarnation ).
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I don't want to throw stones at people here, but I don't know if anyone's actually played one as opposed to forum theorycrafting. It can be built into a serviceable tank with above average debuffs, but you trade a lot at the margin for it, given that your debuffs are a restoration scroll away from disappearing.
It's strong for PvE and PvP, but there are better options for both. PDK is a solid middle-of-the-road option that provides some nice cookies that look a lot better than they perform in practice. If you're using your Final Stand 11 times per rest, it's probably a pretty clear omen that your party has problems - I'm not saying that it's balanced but it's not really not that much of a consideration.
The only PDK build I can think of at present that is better than its Fighter equivalent is the Bard/PDK/PM, which is a problem of how well large chunks of healing synergize with PM, rather than a problem of any of the three classes being imbalanced.
I'd also like to address the point made about 20/10 Bard/PDK: the downside compared to the standard 20/6/4 bard/ftr/pal split is: no unblockable damage, no +9 AC from divine shield, and a net loss of one feat on a build that is incredibly feat-starved. All you get in exchange is that your opponent is significantly more screwed if they can't use a restoration scroll/wand.
Mithreas wrote:Don't worry, I tried to buff that, but the feat 2das don't work without haks so I ended up improving other abilities instead
I'm not planning to make any further changes to PDK personally, though I believe Scholar and Peppermint are (and to be clear, I'm totally OK with that! They're far better placed to make balance adjustments than I am). As such, I'm going to leave detailed responses to YCA and Cortex to those who have a better grasp of epic builds than I do (but thank you for making your cases explicitly, even if I still don't rate the healer path, in either my original or its new incarnation ).
Depends if I like the changes! If I like them, I'll steal them
Some of the things I've seen proposed would definitely be worth stealing.
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