The current state of Wharftown

[Mr_Rieper]

for example, what is to prevent Cordor from razing, say, Guldorand if they choose to in the future?).

The short answer to this would be: IC reasons.

The long answer would be: Circumstances that make it unfeasible for Cordor to attempt to raze Guldorand, due to the characters involved. The King would also have no reason to get involved in such a conflict either.

The opposite is also true. Guldorand has no reason to pick a fight with Cordor. Notice how allies often jump in to help one another? It gives them a reason to fight.

That's what this is all down to. Reasons. Does Cordor have a reason to raze another settlement? They certainly were given enough reasons in Wharftown's case, which is why it happened.

[Cortex]

That's all from your player perspective.

[FrozenSolid]

Did the Elves ever answer Armenius when he declared war on them? Or just hide up in Myon? Did the dwarves march down from Brogendenstein to try and force Armenius into a deal? Did Guldorand offer to smuggle Refugees out of Wharftown into their settlement?

In order...

- Wharftown declared war on Myon three RL days (give or take) before Wharftown was due to explode. The WT leadership that declared war on Myon was nowhere to be seen by this point. There was nobody to roleplay or fight with. It looked petulent, silly and a total waste of everyone's time and energy.

- Why would Brog have given a rat's left bollock?

- Yes, Guldorand did offer to take in refugees, and people from Guldorand were actively offering Guld's services to all but the WT leadership. Infact, one of Guldorand's more active people is a Wharftown refugee, and after the event, Guldorand sheltered the person who last-minute usurped Armenius as mayor... In addition, Guldorand set up a medical station just outside the town on the day of WT's destruction, offering services to those fleeing or injured.

If you're going to ask accusatory questions, at least make them half way difficult to answer.

1. From what I heard Armenius declared war long before that when he also chose to throw Myon sentinels out of the town.

2. Why would Brogendestein not? They're the leader of a Coalition of surface alliances with the intention of pursuing general "Good" on the island. Armenius had ties with the UD and other races that would put them in direct conflict with Brogendenstein not to mention the abundance of necromancers operating in the town.

3. An offer isn't necessarily RP. Saying "We'll do it" but then never making the in game effort to go do it is different. I don't think there is any Refugee Camp in Guldorand, nor have they done anything to find homes for the Refugees outside Myon or the ones that were in Haven.

I am glad a PC refugees made their way to Guldorand. That's perfect.

[-XXX-]

Re FrozenSolid: this is the OOC forum, you can step out of character here

[-XXX-]

for example, what is to prevent Cordor from razing, say, Guldorand if they choose to in the future?).

The short answer to this would be: IC reasons.

The long answer would be: Circumstances that make it unfeasible for Cordor to attempt to raze Guldorand, due to the characters involved. The King would also have no reason to get involved in such a conflict either.

The opposite is also true. Guldorand has no reason to pick a fight with Cordor. Notice how allies often jump in to help one another? It gives them a reason to fight.

That's what this is all down to. Reasons. Does Cordor have a reason to raze another settlement? They certainly were given enough reasons in Wharftown's case, which is why it happened.

So what you're saying as I see it reads essentially as follows - all surface settlements need to either be a part of the big happy triadic family or at least pretend to be that way or risk giving out "reasons".

[DarkDreamer]

I see and hear both ides to this.

On one hand, it was entirely story driven which is entirely great, it made a great change and did a lot for the story.

On the other hand....GRRR WE IS CORDOR, IF YOU NOT AGREE WIT US, WE CALLZ IN AMN TO HELP KRUSH YOU TO DEATH AND DER IS NOTHIN YUZ KAN DO ABOUT IT!!

I mean, there was so many other ways that King Edward could have responded without making Cordor looking like the massive op'd settlement that NO ONE has a chance of fighting. He has a military, he has mages, he has land troops and a player navy....I agree as one of the players for WT that perhaps it should have been handled a bit better DM side on how they decided to take down Cordor, like a more inclusive answer might have been to try to march a massive NPC army to WT and literally invade it and hold the entire village hostage and vassle it to Cordor.

But looking at the later of it, you say players are involved in the before and after.....yet at the same time, if you do anything now, Cordor again aka the King will just destroy it and deny your attempts to rebuild or do anything to the remains.....sorry but that entirely takes things out of the players hands and puts it into the DMs and Devs hands again.

[Mr_Rieper]

for example, what is to prevent Cordor from razing, say, Guldorand if they choose to in the future?).

The short answer to this would be: IC reasons.

The long answer would be: Circumstances that make it unfeasible for Cordor to attempt to raze Guldorand, due to the characters involved. The King would also have no reason to get involved in such a conflict either.

The opposite is also true. Guldorand has no reason to pick a fight with Cordor. Notice how allies often jump in to help one another? It gives them a reason to fight.

That's what this is all down to. Reasons. Does Cordor have a reason to raze another settlement? They certainly were given enough reasons in Wharftown's case, which is why it happened.

So what you're saying as I see it reads essentially as follows - all surface settlements need to either be a part of the big happy triadic family or at least pretend to be that way or risk giving out "reasons".

I think you're getting confused here. I didn't mention anything about the Triad. Nor alignments. I merely said there was no reason for the settlements to attack one another. And even if there was, there wouldn't be a reason to involve Amn and obliterate the settlement unless it transformed into something drastic. Which it probably wouldn't, because if you escalate things to that point, you'd probably have a plan to deal with it.

You'll find that most lawful societies generally resemble one another, whether they are praising a lawful good, lawful neutral or lawful evil god. Triadists might want to pick a fight with Banites, but that's completely natural and expected. But I can assure you, Triadists are not the majority on the server.

It's a bit cheeky to oversimplify every settlement's RP to "basically pretending to be Triadists".

[-XXX-]

I mean, there was so many other ways that King Edward could have responded without making Cordor looking like the massive op'd settlement that NO ONE has a chance of fighting. He has a military, he has mages, he has land troops and a player navy....I agree as one of the players for WT that perhaps it should have been handled a bit better DM side on how they decided to take down Cordor, like a more inclusive answer might have been to try to march a massive NPC army to WT and literally invade it and hold the entire village hostage and vassle it to Cordor.

The answer was inclusive enough, it's just the majority of the Wharftown character players chose to bail out before it went down. And while this might not have been the most graceful way to approach the resolution of said conflict, it arises certain questions.

Just as in any game, if one of the players tilts out a "folds" prematurely, while the answer to that being that they are simply a sore loser might be the simplest and more convenient one, the real reason is often a more complex and profound one. Seeking these answers can be important if you wish to keep playing games with these people, so... yeah, separating IG conflict from OOC one might be prudent as one is desirable while the other is not. Maybe asking Wharftowner players why they chose not to participate enough would be more in place than rubbing the result in their face stating how they deserved it, eh?

So yeah, a little bit of healthy communication can be beneficial sometimes.

[Rodent]

Did Guldorand, Brog, Or Myon steer their boats in front of Wharftown to try and block Cordor/AMn from destroying it? Did the Elves ever answer Armenius when he declared war on them? Or just hide up in Myon? Did the dwarves march down from Brogendenstein to try and force Armenius into a deal? Did Guldorand offer to smuggle Refugees out of Wharftown into their settlement?

No. Everyone was to busy OOCLY, being Forum Warriors and complaining on Discord rather then trying to make an IC impact.

You are incorrect. Allow me to tell you why.

As stated earlier in the thread, Wharftown declared mechanical war on Myon about three or four days before the razing event was planned. The Coalition and Cordor had at least one huge meeting (I can get you the timestamp and detailed logs if you like..) where the Wharftown situation was discussed.

Additionally, Myon Sentinels explicitly stepped into Wharftown a couple of days before the razing and took away Refugees. I am sure a DM can confirm that, and the fixtures for that RP are still outside Myon.

Also, Myon spent the razing event watching the sack from a distance and trying to ensure that Amnian forces would not aggress further and into their territory.

What you enjoy is a matter of personal preference, but lets not sugarcoat the facts of the matter here. Wharftown faced IC consequences for its action and the leadership's reaction was essentially to throw its toys out of the pram. None of the Wharftown people responded, except Khabul and Meredith Gates in the event.

As Irongron has made abundantly clear, if an attempt was made to stave off consequences they would've been staved off. It would've made for engaging underdog story of Wharftown surviving against all odds. What was given in return instead was a total surrender on the OOC end. Perhaps the leadership felt they were being railroaded. Again, as Irongron said that was not the case. So if it was not railroading and the consequences of the event rested in the hands of both sides roleplaying it...Who is to blame for Wharftown biting it utterly?

[Rwby]

Okay, so there's a couple of points I think it only fair to mention here...

Part of the issue here is that the DMs seemed to be looking for a lead from 'Wharftown's Leadership'. I'm not sure what they feel out of character, since they seem to have refrained from posting this, but this issue there is ultimately Wharftown was lead and owned by a single person, the Mayor, and the 'Leadership' of Wharftown at any given point in time is normally roughly four to five people at most. This is a very, very small percentage of Wharftownians.

Part of the issues I encountered in and around the event is that everyone in Wharftown wanted to surrender. I was there twice with Wharftowns remaining residents going 'Cordor, we unconditionally surrender, please just don't destroy our homes.'

The only acceptable soultion, [As referenced in bold earlier] was to provide the Alive form of the Mayor to Cordorian authorities, and _That_ I take issue with.

Why? Because it was flat out impossible for those of us in Wharftown to forfill that request because it relied on the ooc co-operation of another player, whom I certainly didn't see online at all for days before, and during the event.

Give us the Mayor or we burn your own is all very well and good in real life, but when the Mayor perocidically ceases to exist at the whims of another being, it is, and was, flat out impossible to forfill.

Wharftown's Leadership was happy to let the town burn. [I've got a fairly good idea why, too, icly.] But Wharftowns leadership represented about three players. All the other players who wanted to stop the town being burnt down got the general impression that unconditional surrender wasn't enough, there was no way to win, a conflict, and the only get out of jail clause required capturing a player whom wasn't and wouldn't be logged in.

Even when Laura Sinclair was elected Mayor, and A wasn't the Mayor anymore, that still had no effect on Cordor. The remaining Wharftownians at this point had already declared their intentions to capture the former mayor and hand him over to Cordor, and had been plotting to do so for several real life days. The stumbling block was of course, he wasn't there to arrest.


I say this, noting that personally, I'm chill with everything that can happen. But equally, I can very easily understand and sympathise with those others who really were trying, and really did feel powerless to stop things.

[flower]

It seems to me they just pulled many people into conflict and then simple left, leaving others to eat it up.

With what happened to Wharftown i just wonder why Sencliff is still standing. In past they gathered armies, murdered people (even officials) within cordorian streets. Sencliff is a single castle on a rock in the middle of sea, so there is no real reason for Cordor to let it go unanswered.

But we shouldnt meddle in RP reasons -why- as it seems mostly to be OOC decision. Given what Irongron had been writting at the time on forums , and the topic about PVP and MoD and stuff appearing in announcements. Few people at the time began to complain on being killed and i am pretty certain these reports sent trough emails had to be numerous to upset Irongron to make his decision. Also i can clearly remember his words where he stated the server story is not going to decided by mere PVP (and week after Wharftown got razed).

I think this is to serve as a memento for future, when some other faction would try to control server trough pvping and wars. Should it repeat there would be reason why to raze another settlement that I am sure (just the Wharftown thing comes to me done with hot needle).

Edit: Rwby: is why i call it hot needle. They had to allow you to make coup if you were majority and remove inactive leader (hiding from consequcnes) from leadership. Well, things happened, it is past now.

[Cortex]

Sencliff is protected by the pirates of the archipelago, and have been shown to pose equal threat of the Amn Armada. They, however, have been shown to also not care about unifying themselves for many other goals other than protecting their hub.

[The GrumpyCat]

I'm not really complaining here, I merely voiced my personal concern with the state of things (current and past) and proposed a solution - either remove Cordor from any further conflicts by removing PC representation of it as a settlement (this means that there would not be any PC magisters, guards, chancellors or whoever who could start conflicts with other factions - if they want conflict, they can do it as an independent faction on equal footing with everyone else) or introduce a simmilarly large and powerful settlement as a counterweight. Is this a fantastic optimal solution? Is it even necessary? IDK. Worth considering? Maybe, dunno... brainstorming here, really.

Firstly: I know it's not a complaint XXX, you're awsome and this is just a fun discussion!

With That Being Said I will adress your points.

1) Removing pc representation from Cordor would not change anything. This decision was more pushed by the NPCs. If anything this is an argument for removing PC representation from ALL settlments I suppose, but just one makes no sense.

2) A similarly large and powerful settlment as counterweight? We have that. It's called Andunor.
The problem was less 'Faction X was attacking Cordor' and more 'Wharftown was at WAR with cordor.' And had been, on and off, for a long time. And recently had been doing it so often, so heavily, that some npc response was required.

Consider this scenario.

One day in Guldorand (or pick any settlment really) a High level pc enters. He kills lots of npcs, finds your pc, beats them down and kills them.
Next day he comes back again. Again killing npcs, finds pcs, kills them. Then raises one and subjects them to vicious torture inside city walls, in front of guard npcs. Then leaves
Next day he comes back again, killing more pcs, doiong more torture, killing npcs.
Next day he does it again, the pcs arn't strong enough to stop him. More pc and npc deaths occur. He demands to be named King of the Settlment or he says he'll continue.
Next day he does similar, again more demands.
All the time he is in no way disguised or hidden. He is utterly open with his identity and happily does things in front of npcs, ignoring them entirely unless he decides to kill them on a whim.
After a while, I would imagine that the pcs would get a bit miffed at this. Is the answer:

a) 'This guy is a higher level than you guys and better at pvp. Sorry you're just going ot have to suck it up and hand over the settlment to him.'
b) This guy is metagaming the guards, the city and all other npcs. The city should really react to this one nutso entering the place and murdering/torturing people in braud daylight!

As a DM, I lean on option B personally.

'Hold on,' You say, 'Hold on, in that example - do you mean that no one can ever do pvp in front of guards at a city?'

Now for me, personaly, I'd say - it depends on the sitation, on what you're doing, and how often you do it. But if you're doing it openly and constantly then yeah, the npcs are going to react.

But this is basicaly what Wharf was doing. They were hitting cordor over, and over again, ignoring the npc presence entirely. If they'd done it once or twice, or if they'd been clever about it, then it would have been fine. But there comes a point when, just like in the above example, npcs will bite back.

[-XXX-]

OK, fair points, almost all of it. With one exception though - I really strongly disagree with the idea that Andunor can serve as a power counterweight to Cordor. Firstly, the surface PC population is much larger than the one of the Underdark. Secondly, Andunor is openly evil and run by monsters. Thirdly, there are four other settlements on the surface to ally with Cordor against Andunor, pretty much by default, as opposed to 0 other UD settlements to ally with Andunor against Cordor (and yes, I do realise that Andunor is essentially two settlements, but still). And last but not least, Cordor is backed by a mainland nation (Amn). Andunor is being overseen by two drow houses (Claddath, Freth) - those two NPC forces are not exactly comparable in size.
All things considered, odds are stacked up against Andunor pretty dramatically should we consider it to represent some sort of power counterweight to Cordor.

Just consider the following theoretical scenario - a band of Triadic paladins decide that they disagree with the way the current magistrate runs affairs in Cordor. Are they supposed to descend into the Underdark and petition the matron mothers for help against the corrupt government?

I was more of the mind that another mainland nation might try to establish a foothold on Arelith or one of the nearby islands (say, Cromyr or Thay... whatever would make sense). That way a counterweight would be put in place without any racial or alignment related stigma.

[Cortex]

A powerhouse to counter balance Cordor is coming SoonTM.

[-XXX-]

w00t! Everything makes sense now and is awsome! Bussiness as usual

[Sab1]

So from the sounds of it seems a few players got wharftown in a lot of trouble then ran off leaving the town to face the consequences. Sounds like there shouldn't be anger at devs or dms but ic anger of these players who took things to the extreme and forced something to be done about it.

A settlement can be evil etc and get away with it, but when its seen as nothing but a den of bloodthirsty murderers allowing evil races such as drow to have a say in the city, there will be problems.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

There is undeniably motivation to remove Cordor from having political relationships with "real" Forgotten Realm nations, aka Amn.

Without commenting on the outcome of Wharftown, there should be a move to prevent the deus ex machina of Amn (or any other country) from meddling in Arelithian politics. I don't think it's particularly good taste for PCs, NPCs, or otherwise, to allow, dictate, or create relationships with Faerunian powers this way. Arelith should remain a microcosm.

Whether we need to create plot devices like "the seas around Arelith are turbulent, and violent for anything more than trading vessels" or "the leyline disruption of the archipelago pose too great a risk" or "Arelithians are nothing but greedy, back-stabbing adventurers proclaiming themselves to be heroes, but are nothing more than warlords - the scum of Faerun who flee there because they can't make a name for themselves anywhere else on the continent."

I don't know. Something. But I'd hate to see a future event that ties up Arelithian lore and politics, with a foreign power.

[Cybernet21]

There is undeniably motivation to remove Cordor from having political relationships with "real" Forgotten Realm nations, aka Amn.

Without commenting on the outcome of Wharftown, there should be a move to prevent the deus ex machina of Amn (or any other country) from meddling in Arelithian politics. I don't think it's particularly good taste for PCs, NPCs, or otherwise, to allow, dictate, or create relationships with Faerunian powers this way. Arelith should remain a microcosm.

Whether we need to create plot devices like "the seas around Arelith are turbulent, and violent for anything more than trading vessels" or "the leyline disruption of the archipelago pose too great a risk" or "Arelithians are nothing but greedy, back-stabbing adventurers proclaiming themselves to be heroes, but are nothing more than warlords - the scum of Faerun who flee there because they can't make a name for themselves anywhere else on the continent."

I don't know. Something. But I'd hate to see a future event that ties up Arelithian lore and politics, with a foreign power.

Or the opposite could happen,more nations start making allies and exploring Arelith,maybe make a "evil" setlement that rivals Cordor,maybe Thay hears of how Amn is taking advantage of this Isle,where even the Gods seem to have great interest, and follow suit to acquire more ressources/coin.

Arelith being on a time bubble can be "annoying" at times,and now add being in a bubble from the rest of FR?That would be even more "annoying",why would some nations on the FR universe not take interest in a mostly unexplored island with a lot of ressources right for the taking?

EDIT:Thay could also have it's setllement have slave trade with Andunor(Thay profits hinge on slave trade after all)

[Cortex]

I'm of the belief that at most there should be enclaves and such but no more, too much NPC power undermines the players. The thing with Wharftown and Cordor left many people feeling powerless to do any sort of settlement conflict, not the Wharftown situation itself but future ones (I do not speak this for myself, this is from numerous others I've spoken with). They're afraid of doing any sort of PvP with anyone that belongs to a settlement.

Reinforcing that sensation with more NPC pressure will continue to suffocate players.

[Cybernet21]

I'm of the belief that at most there should be enclaves and such but no more, too much NPC power undermines the players. The thing with Wharftown and Cordor left many people feeling powerless to do any sort of settlement conflict, not the Wharftown situation itself but future ones (I do not speak this for myself, this is from numerous others I've spoken with). They're afraid of doing any sort of PvP with anyone that belongs to a settlement.

Reinforcing that sensation with more NPC pressure will continue to suffocate players.

I agree,i said about the Thayan settlement as a example because that way Cordor would not be able to simply use the Amn card and win,if Cordor ever uses the Amn card the Thayan setllement would use the Thay card.

Wich means actually taking away some NPC power with a RP tool

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The problem with dealing with more FR countries and powers on Arelith, in a regular sense, is that players will become frustrated if,

a) they're not interacted with by said powers
b) the DMs uphold interactions players do not believe to be "canon"
c) foreign power is used in a weird, or unconvincing way

For example, I'd argue why on earth does Thay have any interest in some far off backwater island? There were even Red Wizards here, but those efforts, to some, might have seen much a return. Other players would disagree. But who would be right? I don't know.

Amn has always appeared logical because 1) it's a stepping stone to their colonies in Maztica and 2) they are geographically the closest continental power.

It'd be hard to believe anyone else would care, when continental Faerun is filled with strife and protecting one's borders.

edit: I also think a "bubble" is totally fine. We don't want to be attached to everything Forgotten Realms espouses. We aren't really the Forgotten Realms. We're our own weird Frankenstein creation. We need to do more to embrace Arelith's history, and lore, rather than rely on Forgotten Realms.

For example, there's no reason why we needed Amn involved in the war. Arelith has a history of DM events where corsair kings, and fleets, have been used as enemies, and enemies of enemies. We could have just as easily relied on something that has occurred in Arelith's past, as a way of tying things together thematically on the server. I know we've also used Amn, but never in an involved way - almost always as "don't do this or you piss off Amn."

[Thron]

EDIT: I would imagine... I would hope... that if Cordor went mad with power, that if it started sacrificing elves in the street, enslaving dwarves, demanding thousands of gold from Guldorand per day,

Damn it Grumpy! Quit givin' away my term priorities!

[Cerk Evermoore]

I just want to confirm what Irongron is saying. We really were hoping that the leadership would do something to stop this, we really were watching, we really did want them to do something.

We literally rolled over and died, nobodies fault but ours and it is completely true. I had many discord discussions with many folks who wouldn't log in about fighting the good fight and how it wasn't over. But some folks who played the OOC game made it seem like the DMs already made their decision and Wharftown was to be destroyed. Another example of how OOC communications completely ruin the game.

[A little fellow]

I think it's laughable that the settlements of Arelith avoided the War for it's entire duration with /Full/ knowledge of the evil going on there, then once Wharftown is gone, they all jump down Cordor's throat for being evil and out of control.

Did Guldorand, Brog, Or Myon steer their boats in front of Wharftown to try and block Cordor/AMn from destroying it? Did the Elves ever answer Armenius when he declared war on them? Or just hide up in Myon? Did the dwarves march down from Brogendenstein to try and force Armenius into a deal? Did Guldorand offer to smuggle Refugees out of Wharftown into their settlement?

No. Everyone was to busy OOCLY, being Forum Warriors and complaining on Discord rather then trying to make an IC impact.

I don't mean to escalate this, but I do find it funny how you display on these forums the exact same ignorance that some of your characters also possess.

You know nothing of the RP that Brogendenstein, Myon, Guldorand or Bendir got from the Cordor/WT conflict and I have proof .. You would not have posted anything in that quote if you /actually/ knew the RP that was generated in those settlements regarding that conflict.

If you are to express anything here, please let it be admiration and respect that these settlements chose a stance on the conflict that wasn't about getting a PvP fix, or acting rashly and unwisely (poor traits for settlement leadership) just so we can be in frame of a major event in Arelith history so it can be trotted out as an IC trump card. Admiration that the RP that you enjoyed so much was given room to breathe, and wasn't clogged down by a horde of Elves, Dwarves, Hin and Mountainmen trying to insert themselves into the equation, and instead debating intensely and emotionally the significance of the moment.

Admiration and respect that whilst the event (which I'm sure was extremely entertaining) was going on, numerous Dwarf players chose instead to RP the defense of their docks (for the events entirety) from any immediate fallout from the catastrophe, which was not nearly as entertaining. Afterwards a gathering of settlements was had in which all were united in staying out of the conflict .. /not/ because we can't be bothered, /not/ because we were too busy ranting on the forums .. But because Cordor was set to obliterate Wharftown, and none of these settlements had IC reason enough to stop it. Not having reason enough to stop it does not mean it is a thing forgotten about for convenience, there is real emotion in these characters we are playing, and opinions ranged from "We could have done something to stop this" to "They deserved what they got".

I can assure you also, as somebody within the loop of these settlements, RP has taken place since that day onwards.




Oh, and I don't think the WT boys should be so close to Lauriks boat.